UPT Scandal

[TonyC]

I remember getting the gouge during the very first week of UPT. Back then, we called it the "Dash One."










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[talondriver]

TalonDriver,
This happened during T-38 phase, right? Also, you mentioned the IP getting pulled from IFF. I take it he left Columbus before all this got discovered, and they clipped him at Moody?

The charges occured in phase three (T-38/T-1s) but the buffoonery happened in tweets. Apparently, students from other classes got their hands a little dirty but no charges were brought on them. It did prevent some of those students from FAIP assignments. Oh well. It would frustrate some if I said what one student got for an assignment.

The IP (FAIP) was going through IFF when the charges were slapped on him. He's back awaiting punishment.

 

[pkober]

UPT and all USAF course are based on a foundation of gouge. The USAF is sooooo hypocritical when it comes to this. Every course I have ever taken, and it's been alot, have started with comments from the instructors which went like this, " I just want to tell you that this course and all the tests haven't changed in five years" followed by the sounds of foot stomping.

Usually the people who complain the loudest about gouge are the ones who can't cope in the cockpit. The cockpit is the place where your true abilities come out. Not some test that was designed to test your test taking abilities. How many time do you see pilots who can spit back anything you tell them and shack every test they take but then can't figure out a holding entry?

If there is more to this story than so be it, but if this was just about "cheating" on an EPQ than its wrong.

My two cents.

CLAMBAKE

 

[Occam's Razor]

bozt45:

Wow. When I was OCONUS(Out of Continental U.S.) in the USMC (United States Marine Corps) over in WESTPAC (Western Pacific Theater of Operations), we took NATOPS (Naval Air Training and Operations Standardization) tests WAB. The CO (Commanding Officer) never asked my RIO (Radar Intercept Officer) if that was A-OK, so WTF (What The F--K)!

BAMCIS -Begin the planning, Arrange the recon, Make the recon, Complete the planning, Supervise No "I"
FOCPIG-Fire, Observed, Concealed, Protected, Integrated, non Geometric
SMEAC-Situation, Mission, Execution, Administration and logistics, Command and Signal)
BOHICA-Bend Over, Here It Comes Again
FIGMAC-????????

Not bad! The bubbas at TBS would be proud of you.

The one's you missed:

"WAB"= With a buddy. The rule in our squadron was you never flew without a wingman...cross-country, airshow, divert, etc.
"FOCPIG" = you were close. It's the principles for a defensive position: Fields of Fire, Obstacles, Concealment...
"FIGMAC" = F**K it...Got My Air Contract! (frequently heard during land nav at TBS)
"BAMCIS" = The "I" is for "Issue the order"

Semper Fi!

 

[talondriver]

UPT and all USAF course are based on a foundation of gouge. The USAF is sooooo hypocritical when it comes to this. Every course I have ever taken, and it's been alot, have started with comments from the instructors which went like this, " I just want to tell you that this course and all the tests haven't changed in five years" followed by the sounds of foot stomping. CLAMBAKE

You're right. We've all used gouges. But we never wanted to know where/whom/what or how it was compiled. I think these people (especially the IP accused) crossed that line between using a gouge or verbal intel from senior classes and blatant stealing of controlled items (AETC's equivalent to selling classified stuff). When you cross that line, the wing leadership has no choice but to throw the book.

 

[Goose17]

the extra mile

Gouge, it was good.


We went the extra mile and put a baby monitor in the IP room. Every morning they would go in there and lock the door. They would talk about the students as well as discuss that mornings "standup". They would discuss who would be selected that morning giving the individual about 10 minutes worth of excellent real time intel to get ahead of the battle.

All was well until the selected student was reading the exact page in his dash 1 when and instructor walked by. They got suspiscious and the next morning they all bolted from the IP room to find us huddled around a baby receiver producing nothing but static.

We were in trouble and we got our pee pees wacked, but the instructors all said on the side that they were quite impressed with our tactics.

I hope these guys survive.

Goose17

 

[CobraKai]

At least they came out of the room. Ours, after deciding the weather was not going to let us fly, bolted for breakfast burritos. It took about 10 minutes before we sent someone to check on them.

 

[K-Mart]

Gouge, it was good.


We went the extra mile and put a baby monitor in the IP room. Every morning they would go in there and lock the door. They would talk about the students as well as discuss that mornings "standup". They would discuss who would be selected that morning giving the individual about 10 minutes worth of excellent real time intel to get ahead of the battle.

All was well until the selected student was reading the exact page in his dash 1 when and instructor walked by. They got suspiscious and the next morning they all bolted from the IP room to find us huddled around a baby receiver producing nothing but static.

We were in trouble and we got our pee pees wacked, but the instructors all said on the side that they were quite impressed with our tactics.

I hope these guys survive.

Goose17

What a great class. Very impressive!!

While we don't know the whole story, I believe it is a bunch of garbage that students will be kicked out UPT and even worse the AF, over something like an EPQ. Totally pathetic. Good leadership, in my opinion, would take these Lts out back behind the hanger and give them a lesson. We should take better care of our own in the military. This is a key element of leadership.These kids deserve better. Emphasis kids.

 

[CCDiscoB]

...would feel if you knew that your captain had cheated his way through flight school...

I see what you're saying but that doesn't really apply. Cheating for a pilot would be having someone else fly your maneuvers. The weekly tests we're talking about are just a little "haze" AETC devised to add to the final grading criteria. When I went through our USEM in 38s wrote his own questions. The tests were not standardized and Friday afternoons were much better after you learned you passed the test. Apparently the tests are standardized command wide and getting an MQF would not be hard to do.

What student/IP relationship are we talking about? Was it dating each other? That would be bad. I wouldn't have allowed that in my flt.

 

[talondriver]

What student/IP relationship are we talking about? Was it dating each other? That would be bad. I wouldn't have allowed that in my flt.

We'll know for sure about the specifics after his court martial next month.

A quote from one of our "ol' skool" fighter pilots about co-ed squadrons:

"Back in the old days, if two pilots were dating each other we called them f*ggots!!"

 

[SIG600]

Everyone I know has been a part of "cooperate to graduate," but this went beyond that. Guys I talk to say that only a certain number of dudes had the "gouge" (read: actual test), and that it was kept from other people in the flight/class. Not cool, if you ask me.

In the end it may have saved those that didn't have it from what it sounds like, either way though thats a pretty douche bag move. Those are the same guys that will stab you in the back later to further their career.

We had a guy like that in our neighboring squadron. A complete tool, and would pull the same crap. You can bet the RAG (same thing as RTU) knew who he was before he walked in the door.

 

[AD SUPT Hopeful]

What student/IP relationship are we talking about? Was it dating each other? That would be bad. I wouldn't have allowed that in my flt.

From what I've heard, I don't think the Flight/CC knew about the relationship.

 

[Phrogboy]

I just left Vance UPT as a FWQ and I was not impressed with the leadership in AETC. The CC seemed to lack any real connection to the studs, so I am not surprised to hear about another CC hangin his squadron members out to dry. I honestly feel the leadership in AETC does not lead by example, rather they micromanage and problem solve. Here's an example, the CC put the entire squadron on probation for 3 weeks (myself included) due to 3 alcohol related incidents. They were all minor incidences however, the last one being a student who was arrested for carrying a beer bottle out of a bar while talking on his cell phone!! The police arrested him and then dropped the charges. I would have liked to have seen at least the CC sticking up for the students and not drawing the line in the sand for something so minor.

The punishment should always fit the crime, and in this case, it seems there is a grave injustice. EPQ's are nothing more than UPT hazing and that should reflect in the punishment.

 

[pkober]

Phrog,

Congrats on graduating.

Welcome to the PC Air Force. You have now joined an organization that is more concerned with disco belts than fighting wars.

Good luck

CLAMBAKE

 

[talondriver]

I just left Vance UPT as a FWQ and I was not impressed with the leadership in AETC. The CC seemed to lack any real connection to the studs, so I am not surprised to hear about another CC hangin his squadron members out to dry. I honestly feel the leadership in AETC does not lead by example, rather they micromanage and problem solve. Here's an example, the CC put the entire squadron on probation for 3 weeks (myself included) due to 3 alcohol related incidents. They were all minor incidences however, the last one being a student who was arrested for carrying a beer bottle out of a bar while talking on his cell phone!! The police arrested him and then dropped the charges. I would have liked to have seen at least the CC sticking up for the students and not drawing the line in the sand for something so minor.

The punishment should always fit the crime, and in this case, it seems there is a grave injustice. EPQ's are nothing more than UPT hazing and that should reflect in the punishment.

Sounds a lot like a end of course critique in the PC AF.

Don't let your experience with your first commanders affect your views of the AF. There are plenty of awesome commanders out there. I hope you get the honor of serving under one soon.
I've seen worse alcohol situations with studs where the punishment was lighter than yours. Apparently, one of 3 "minor" incidents pushed him past his breaking point and you suffered. But 3?????? Sounds like a trend. I hope you're clued in to the same info your CC got when he made the call.

 

[J D]

Force Shaping

Most former Studs/FAIPS would not recognize todays UPT. Current poilcy...if SIE/DOR you are out of the AF period and have will to pay back any scholarship/Academy costs. If you wash out, you are out...(with limited exceptions). But at least you wont have to pay back any money. Made it very easy for the AF to take the hard line with these guys.

 

[AA717driver]

You have a bunch of intelligent, motivated twenty-something people with mostly a "frat-boy" mentality (that is a compliment, mind you) under pressure to perform and monitored, more or less, closely most of the time.

Taking advantage of ANY opportunity to make a boring task (ground school) easier is not only understandable, it's admirable. They still have to fly the plane and know how the systems function.

In the civilian world (unfortunately my only experience) we did the same thing in airline newhire ground school. We did what we could to "enhance" our chances of passing the tests--whatever it took.

Sounds like BS to me and a waste of my tax money. AND a morale buster which is even worse. I hope they get back in training.TC

 

[KCPilot]

The “study material” is what helped me pass my EPQs. I’m not one that is good at testing, so when it came to the “study material” that helped me through the hazing process. But it also helps to have the right stuff too since one week failed 2 in a row and had to talked with the DO. I did pass the 3rd one since I RTFQ. I came close to washing back that week, but in the end I graduated on time and took 3 of the top awards except of course the academics one (go figure). The EPQs in my mind are nothing more than a haze, but some feel they are necessary, just like some of the other crap we do in the AF!

 

[Phrogboy]

Talon, I agree 100% that there are good leaders out there and I have served under many of them. You are right about the critique comment, and my comments would have made it into one had one been given to me.
Unfortunately, it is a political world we live in and I have personally seen worse things happen to good people in order to "make an example". It just sucks to see or hear about kids losing their dream shots just for being kids (sorry, for lack of a better line). I just was not impressed with the "small picture" mentallity of AETC. Just my 2 cents.

 

[talondriver]

I just was not impressed with the "small picture" mentallity of AETC. Just my 2 cents.

I understand. I usually blame it on the FAIPs .