UPS hiring window: OPEN for transoceanic heavy drivers

[Whistlin' Dan]

I don't know how the UPS thing works, but lets take this scenario. some regional guy gets hired at UPS, flys domestic for many years, then gets divorced, wants a change of life and bids captain in ANC. Voila, he is now a md-11 captain with no intl. experience, and junior walks in all bright eyed and bushytailed and says, I'm your F/O, just finished IOE; spent the last four years flyin RJ's back and forth to biloxi from Desmoines.

There's no way that can happen. Before a pilot can be assigned a trip that requires long-range navigation procedures, he is required to have completed a ground school that covers the differences in International vs. domestic ops, as well as the use of the appropriate navigational equpiment. They are then required to complete a specified period of IOE followed by a check ride that is specific to long-range navigation procedures. At my company, I think it's 5 round-trips, but I could be wrong...it's been a while since I did mine.

You cannot teach experience.

No you can't...and you cannot make an experienced pilot use his noggin' on every trip, either. Some of the sharpest guys I've ever crossed the pond with have been the ones right off IOE, some of the worst, the old hands who thought they knew it all, and had become complacent about the required cross-checks and procedures. I'm personally aware of 3 flights that accrued GNE's in the last 20 years. One was captained by a company check-airman and his F/O, a former check-airman. Another racked up a GNE and was forced to land (along with a full load of passengers) in a hostile middle-eastern country. The captain claimed it was due to a "weak F/O" but the truth is that they simply got complacent about loading (and double-checking) lat-longs into the box. I don't know if he claimed per diem for his week in Baghdad or not...

The third GNE? An experienced pilot, but new to the airplane, the procedures, and the equipment. He took his weinie-whack in stride, and didn't do it again, ever.

Lets look at this another way, If you were a captain with lots of experience, who would you rather have next to you while your doing a tour of china and asia? A guy with a bunch of intl experience, or the afformentioned domestic RJ guy?

Neither. I want the guy who loves this job, but realizes that there are times between "Hotel happy-hours" and "big-watch shopping days" when you have to step-up and pay attention to what the hell you're doing. International operations are one such example of those times.

 

[Huskers1]

Whether UPS is right in requiring this experience or not to me is beside the point. As stated earlier, it's their airline so they can ask for anything they want so deal with it. What bothers me is the attitude that somehow rj pilots are below everyone else and their experience doesn't count. Why does everyone feel the need to pick on rj guys? It's a great place to get experience and I learned quite a bit flying up and down the east coast in an rj. If their experience doesn't count for anything, let's make sure to throw in everyone at SWA, JetBlue, AirTran, or even the legacies that have never crossed the ocean. No offense guys, I just get a little tired of the attitude that anyone who hasn't "crossed the pond" being inferior and not bringing anything to the table. We all have to be new and learn sometime!

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

What bothers me is the attitude that somehow rj pilots are below everyone else and their experience doesn't count.

Just for the record, that attitude is NOT shared by the majority of pilots that I know. In fact, the quality of the guys I see coming out of regional airlines is equal to, and possibly even better than, that of ANY other background. That includes the military.

The one possible exception to the rule are those who have some applicable military experience, such as former C-17 or KC-10 drivers. But even then, they only hold the edge for a little while. After a few trips, the regional guys are about as good as they're gonna get, which is to say, "Mission Rated."

On the level of difficulty, with "1" being differences training and "10" being the attainment of a type-rating, becoming proficient in transoceanic operations is about a "3" or "4." It's certainly within the capability of anyone who meets all of the other requirements for employment at UPS.

In case anybody from FedEx HR is reading this, I'd put the difficulty of getting a 4-year degree at about a "2"...

 

[Vanguard]

Maybe they should add:

Domestic uncontrolled airport operation experience required. (for the militray guys, not the RJ guys.)

 

[Vanguard]

Maybe they should add:

Domestic uncontrolled airport operation experience required. (for the militray guys, not the RJ guys.)

Just a joke...

 

[doubtful]

what to do...

I applied at the end of January. I have the oceanic and international experience that is now a requirement. At the time of my application I do not remember specifically being asked about the transoceanic experience. I attempted to reapply this evening to make sure they knew I had that 'worldwide experience' and I ended up at the page where they tell you that your application on file doesn't need any attention at this time. My question is, does anyone know what happened with the apps that came in before this new requirement?
Is there anything I should be doing or just be patient and wait?

 

[CheyDogFlies]

The one possible exception to the rule are those who have some applicable military experience, such as former C-17 or KC-10 drivers. But even then, they only hold the edge for a little while.

Unlike Maverick's buddy Cougar, I will not be turning in my wings.

 

[maxfly1]

It might be that they also want, by default, those with international experience, not just trans-ocean. Isn't UPS talking about opening up a hub in China? Maybe they're looking to staff something like that, which, of course, will go junior. China flying is sometimes pretty tough, with very rugged mountains, poor radar controllers, etc. It's not a place for rookies.

Have you been to Africa?!!!! One controller clears you on the runway to "line up and wait with" a specific departure clearance. Then a different controller clears you for take off with a totally different instructions in broken English. And he will get mad at you when you ask him to confirm and will demand that you listen attentively. And that's flying part. How about a crazy 40 minute ride from the airport to the hotel.
No my friend, Red China is actually great and....cheap! And everybody is nice.

 

[maxfly1]

I don't know how the UPS thing works, but lets take this scenario. some regional guy gets hired at UPS, flys domestic for many years, then gets divorced, wants a change of life and bids captain in ANC. Voila, he is now a md-11 captain with no intl. experience, and junior walks in all bright eyed and bushytailed and says, I'm your F/O, just finished IOE; spent the last four years flyin RJ's back and forth to biloxi from Desmoines.
So, here we go flyin across China into Russia into wherever.sumtin happens, bad chit!

That doesn't sound like a fun spot to be in!
You cannot teach experience.
Japan has the most intense ground schools in the world, but if something happens thats not covered in training, holy Cow!, they know not what to do!

Folks, I know many of us want to work at UPS, but being thrust into the Intl world of flying, and i mean INTL. is not easy. Sure it can be done, but let me assure you, you do want someone next to you who has previous experience, when the wierd stuff happens. And it does happen!
I think UPS is right to want at least one person in the cockpit who has a fair amount of experience doing oceanic crossings and has had his feet muddy from time to time in the eastern bloc or over china.

Lets look at this another way, If you were a captain with lots of experience, who would you rather have next to you while your doing a tour of china and asia? A guy with a bunch of intl experience, or the afformentioned domestic RJ guy?

I think it depends on what the guy(from the RJ) wants to do. Majority of us dream about huge paychecks and 29 days off a month and not about flying part. This majority don't care what to fly: C-152 or B747. We all were first time some time ago somewhere over the Atlantic or over same China. We all seem to forget that. Give them a chance. May be they are actually romantics and look up every time something is buzzing in the skyes. And may be they won't freak out and be a great support. How about Lufthanza that puts 200 hour FO on A340 or B747 on transoceanic flights to ORD or JFK? Some guys are really willing to learn and absorb everything you say and the other CA they fly with.

 

[inline]

u cant even get to the app unless u check the "oceanic crossing experience" block.if u do not have the experience and check the box to get to the app then it is a lie, easily uncovered later in the process. i have flown to every corner of the earth with no disqualifiers and apparently i am not qualified either.

Did you use "u", "cant" and "i" on your UPS app?