Unrealistic Expectations

[Indigo]

Wow, I can't believe I sat here and read this whole thread. Glad you guys resurected it!

Me too. I'm normally just a lurker but had to compliment everyone on this thread.

 

[ArcticFlier]

Yep..it's me

I also read this whole thread for the 1st time today. Thanks to FurloughedAgain for bringing it back to the top. The original post was a beauty...FA hit the nail squarely on the head. I think many of us have been thinking the same thing, but we just don't type as eloquently as he does. It brought back a lot of memories, and I'm not even sure I qualify as an official 'old fart' yet. Some of the other guys posted some really good stories. IPFreleys' story about the RJ capt/fo was one of the best. I also remember spinning the props on the Metro, just wish I could have gotten the SA-227 type rating!

Ah yes, our beloved Darlene M. She's absolutely a pleasure to work with, and she has lots of great stories from 'back in the day' with Eastern. The cool thing about her is that she almost encourages sexual harrassment! And she still remembers every passenger on every flight by name. I'll never figure out how she does that.

JB,


You sneaky SOB................you found me! I just wish Darlene would transfer to FAT! haha.

AF

 

[Timebuilder]

Fly, your remembrances stirred some early memories for me, too.

As a child, I would lay in the grass of my backyard on a Saturday morning while dozens of WWII and Korean war aircraft flew overhead on weekend training missions. In 1956, they were less than 15 years old! My dad pointed out the cargo planes called "flying box cars". I can still hear the sound as it filled the whole sky, drowning out the transistor radios playing Chuck Berry and Elvis.

Once in a while, one of the new jets passed overhead, and sonic booms were common until they were outlawed by dairy farmers and those with fine china. Plates would fall from wall niches, and cows were scared to death. It was fun while it lasted.

Most of the planes came from Willow Grove NAS, just 35 miles away. What a time to be alive.

 

[Iceman21]

This thread is a wonder to read. 6 months ago I wasn't sure if I was ever going to see my dream come to fruition. 22 years old, wife, baby, 10.00 an hour job, and didn't think it would ever happen.

But because God is great, I am now about to be a Commerical licensed pilot, living off of loan money, without a job. I took the plunge and I was happy, until the bill collectors started calling talking about taking me to court. Kinda feels like the walls are starting to crumble around me, but after reading this thread, I am refreshed. I no longer doubt that I made the right choice. I don't know where this road is leading me and my family, but I know it will be a great place when I get there, and I have God to thank for that.

Tomorrow will be a great day. Why? Because I get to fly.

 

[Airpiraterob]

olden times...

way way back in the day. ah i remember it well..

1992 (chuckle)

i just started college...and flight school was a big part of the cirriculum. The instructors there had 2000 hours and 300 multi, just dying to hear that call from trans states or eagle or great lakes. Fustrated to hell that they have a logbook full of 1700 hours of dual given. countless first solo's and countless checkrides signed off. I had no idea it really was that bad. My parents had nothing to do with flying. We didn't know anyone who flys for a living. We were in the dark about this secret society of flying. Believe me general populace is in the dark about the scope of the industry. I had no idea and to me ignorance was bliss. I was gonna learn to fly.

Sudden change to the fast lane. Flight schools touted retirement of everyone in the majors, so that meant you need to spend your money cause a huge need for pilots exists right now! Everyone signed up. Everyone spent their money wether or not they had their own or someone elses. Instructors were getting hired by regionals with 1000 hours and a multi rating. no hours. not a sausage. They went off happy knowing that things were happening fast and they would be captain in a 747 at 25. I even knew their dis-illusion. I shook my head. I saw what it was like just briefly before the floodgates opened onto the market. Some of the worst quality pilots came out then. I met a few just recently that said "yeah i taught for 300 hours, i couldn't do that anymore. I got so tired of it" Heh, dont even try talking till you did it for at least a thousand. come to think of it just dont talk. The dot com explosion was too good to be true. this looked just like it. please learn from it.

So here they are. The self-professed vunderkind's of pilots. Each one telling their little brothers and sisters and freinds back home how they're gonna be in that big jet real soon and making big money. "I cant wait to make 100k a year at 30" Their friends buy it and go for it too. Self perpetuating Lemming madness. C'mon men! legs go jump into it and only then really know what were getting into. A few actually make it. Lucky few. I hope they make it past the furloughs.

Through my own journey I've watched, listened. I even thought that i could make it in there fast. But I knew that things were happening too fast. Then some a$$hole flys into a building. Right then I knew I would be way over 30 before I made it into the majors. But I'm not a masochist. Why subject myself to bickering and squabling over unfathomable raises and contracts and unions and TA's? I don't know for sure. I could camp out at a regional for years before finding a big jet. It hit me. Why do I want to fly a big jet? Does that make my life better? No. I still have the same crap going on in life and at home. I just need to find out the two questions. "How much do i get paid" and "how much time off do i get and when is that?"

It takes a while but you will find out soon enough. I'm lucky at 29 to discover something. Theres two factors. 1.) Quality of work. 2.) Quality of life outside of work. They're both good? then STAY! Can you have a dog with all this? Can you save 20% into an IRA and still afford to get a pizza after paying your bills? That's my qualifier. Find a job you're happy at. Enjoy where you are. Quit moving so fast cause you will hit that wall youre not seeing ahead of you. Look back and see if you made time for yourself to enjoy what you were doing and where.

The young pilots that can't see this. Well, how fortunate they are to be greedy for airline money. How fortunate they are to be 27 and vomit complaints about only making $35000 a year in this small plane. Spoiled Brats. Do you think your parents upgraded into the house they have now at 30? Heck no they saved money. upgraded slowly through time. That house now is from 20+ years of work. Just cause youre a pilot dosent mean youre entitled to alot of money right now. You now have to wait and live and work for what you want.

Immediate gratification is so immersed its expected. Tough. Live with it. Adapt or get sneers and rude awakenings. I can make $40k a year and be happy or $100k a year and be miserable. In the long run wich one do you think you will pick? I can get a nice pizza on $40k and nice beer too. just like I can at 100k. Difference? I'll be able to stomach the pizza at 65 instead of having ulcers form that 100k a year job.

enjoy your journey. the destination just might suck cock.

 

[Timebuilder]

C'mon, tell us what you REALLY think!

I would have said it differently, but I agree.

It's the journey.

 

[bobbysamd]

I agree

Excellent post, Mr. Pirate. And compliments for your accurate recollection of the early '90s.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

AirPirateRob

AirPirateRob,

Outstanding post. Of course you said everything that we ALL wanted to say but didnt -- words like those dont translate very well from the right seat to the left.

I guess they shouldnt. If I were a Captain I certainly wouldnt want a copilot stepping on my dreams and aspirations.

You know what I feel lately though? Jealousy. A lot of it.

Hey i'll be the first to admit it. I'm scared to death.

After 7 airlines, 9 initials, 3 furloughs, and a bankruptcy I look around the industry and see that things just arent getting any better. ACA just announced another 100 furloughs and you know what scares me the most?

If my current employer decides to stop taking aircraft deliveries and start furloughing i'm going to be back on the street again and THIS time, there are very few companies who will be willing to hire a rapidly aging professional copilot.

So yeah I'm jealous of the 24, 25, 26 year-old Captains in the left seat. Not because they're captains or because they have another 35 years left in their careers from which to recover from this downturn but because they has at least SOME semblance of stability!!!

I'd give anything to have some comfort that my job will remain and that I can count on the paycheck cashing.

Now that i'm back on the "regional" side of the "regional/major" civil-war i'm desperately afraid that the mainline carrier who owns my company will decide that it is in ALPA's best interest to start a jets-for-jobs fiasco here!

Maybe my own expectations are unreasonable.

I expect that my company will be managed thoughtfully and will provide a product that is valuable and economical to our mainline partner.

I expect that the so-called "union" to whome I have paid dues for the better part of 10 years now will actually function in MY best interests as well as in the best interests of the mainline pilots.

I expect that my fellow pilots will negotiate fairly to provide job security to EVERY pilot on the seniority list from the most junior through the most senior, rather than protecting pay, benefits, and retirement for only the most senior on the list.

Sorry for the "glass-half-empty" post today but I cant seem to get away from the bad news.

1. US Airways will lay off another 52 pilots in June.
2. American will declare bankruptcy and will lay off another 2500 pilots.
3. ACA will lay off another 100 pilots on top of the 97 who have already been notified.
4. National Airlines will now liquidate under chapter 7 of the bankruptcy code.
5. Kit Darby is still a Captain at United.
   [/list=1]
   
   yeah... i'm in a lousy mood today.

 

[AA717driver]

I'm lucky...

But not for the reason you think. I have had a charmed career. I'm ex-TWA, a Capt. about to get displaced and furloughed later this year.

Why am I lucky? Because every time I start to feel sorry for myself, I run into someone else who has a whole lot sh***ier deal than I do. Sure, I thought once I upgraded, everything would be sweetness and light. I certainly thought that after AA bought TWA and ended my annual worries about having a job. Just when you thought it was safe...

I used to be scared to death that I would be 55 years old and forced to fly some dirtbag DC8 in the middle of the night. Now, I'm scared that I'll be 55 and NOT flying anything!

A couple of weeks ago, after listening to the ramp office chatter about what we were going to do when we got furloughed, I found that many of my friends are planning on leaving aviation. I thought about it a long time and decided that, like most of my fellow "aviation geeks" on this board, flying isn't what I do, it's what I am. I am an airplane driver. I don't aspire to be a CEO or airline manager(not that there's anything wrong with that ) and I don't need to live in the biggest house in town. I just want to fly airplanes.

FurloughedAgain is right--this won't last forever and, being 45, I will probably see another one of these before I retire. Strap in and hang on.

Bring on that chicken! TC

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Captain

Hang in there Captain,

Hopefully everything will turn out ok.

My best to you and your family.

 

[Flyin' South]

"If"

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too:
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;
If you can dream-and not make dreams your master;
If you can think-and not make thoughts your aim,
If you can meet Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same:
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings,
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone;
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings-nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much:
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

- Rudyard Kipling (1865-1936)

 

[bobbysamd]

Kit

Kit Darby is still a Captain at United.

That's rich.

I find it very curious that Kit is devoid of original advice for displaced pilots seeking work - yet he still believes there is a pilot shortage.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Kit Darby

I think the worst possible personal "he!!" I could think of would be to be a soon-to-be-furloughed United First Officer...show up for work... check the computer and see that I'm flying with Captain Darby.

It would be a 4-day sales presentation on the many and varied Darby products which would inevitably yield a job at one of the "hundreds of airlines hiring today".

"Why Mike if you buy this AirInc baseball cap you will be endowed with secret powerws of persuasion which would certainly help you through that challenging interview at Podunk air".

Wow. He give the Iraqi information minister a run for his money in "funniest man of the year"

 

[AceCrackshot]

Guys! Kit's the man! Much like a second marriage, Kit represents the triumph of hope over experience.

I doubt Kit thinks there is a pilot shortage...what there is a shortage of is $$$ in the "Kit Darby Retirement Fund (tm)."

Only way to rectify that is a little salesmanship...

 

[bobbysamd]

Kit for a month

I think the worst possible personal "he!!" I could think of would be to be a soon-to-be-furloughed United First Officer...show up for work... check the computer and see that I'm flying with Captain Darby.

It would be a 4-day sales presentation on the many and varied Darby products which would inevitably yield a job at one of the "hundreds of airlines hiring today".

"Why Mike if you buy this AirInc baseball cap you will be endowed with secret powerws of persuasion which would certainly help you through that challenging interview at Podunk air".

Wow. He give the Iraqi information minister a run for his money in "funniest man of the year"

Very funny post, actually.

 

[Flyin' South]

You may find it ironic that in the March 17, 2003 issue of Commuter/Regional Airline News, a 3 page interview with Kit Darby is published. Kit is quoted as saying "I've never really adhered to the idea of a pilot shortage." He also predicts 6000 - 7000 pilot job openings this year.

Swear to God.

 

[EngineOut]

"Your job as a [F/O; VP; Asst. Manager;] is to make your [Captain; President; Manager] look good."

"Do what ever you love to do the absolute best that you can and the money will come."

I don't care what you do for a living, the above tenents apply to a successful career in any endeavor that involves other people -- and that is just about all of 'em -- including flying. Think about it...if you had a F/O whose priority was making you look good, wouldn't you honestly be more willing to be there if they needed you?

If all the "next generation" of pilots truly love what they do (as it sounds like they do), then the money will come. It may not even come from where you would expect, but someone will pay for your enthusiasm/experience at some time. Even by writing a book on how to cope with furlough/layoff, etc.

 

[bobbysamd]

You may find it ironic that in the March 17, 2003 issue of Commuter/Regional Airline News, a 3 page interview with Kit Darby is published. Kit is quoted as saying "I've never really adhered to the idea of a pilot shortage." He also predicts 6000 - 7000 pilot job openings this year.

Swear to God.

<Sigh>

 

[AA717driver]

Any lawyers out there?

You may find it ironic that in the March 17, 2003 issue of Commuter/Regional Airline News, a 3 page interview with Kit Darby is published. Kit is quoted as saying "I've never really adhered to the idea of a pilot shortage." He also predicts 6000 - 7000 pilot job openings this year.

Doesn't that border on fraud? Snake oil, anyone?TC

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: Kit Darby

"Why Mike if you buy this AirInc baseball cap you will be endowed with secret powerws of persuasion which would certainly help you through that challenging interview at Podunk Air."

Now that Podunk is flying CRJ-700's coast-to-coast, that might not be such a bad deal!

(Where can I get one of those caps?)

 

[Otto_Pilot]

Podunk

Typhoon,

If we're thinking of the same "Podunk Air", then there are rumors that they may be furloughing in the near future.

They have no further 40/50 seat RJ orders after this year and the 70 seaters may be moved to mainline or moved to a new subsidiary to be flown by mainline furloughees as a part of the mainline concession agreement. With Chautauqua offering to do the same flying at a fraction of the cost I believe there is reason to worry.

That is, of course, unless you drink special kool-aid that makes you believe that Chautauqua was only doing that flying that could not be profitably done by the other DCI carriers. Hmmmm I dont buy it.

 

[Typhoon1244]

I put the phrase "Kit Darby of AirInc" in my trusty anagram finder...you know, to find the hidden meaning.

It spat out dark fiction by air. Sounds ominous.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

by the way...

was just reading through old threads and got a chuckle.

I'm currently working for the so-called "Pudunk Air" we were talking about.

No furloughs yet (keeping my fingers crossed).

 

[bssthound]

What a fabulous thread. I've really enjoyed reading everyone's perspective. I can't agree more, BTW, it is all about attitude.

I'm a 40 year-old ASA FO. I about sh*t my pants every time I get to come to work to fly the CRJ. I'm thrilled to death to have a flying job this day and age and even happier to fly the CRJ. In over three years at ASA I've only flown with one guy I didn't like. That's a pretty durn good track record.

I didn't dream of airliners as a kid, though! At the age of 10 I saw the Thunderbirds in the mighty, mighty F-4 phantom. That did it! All that noise and smoke and sheer excitement! I had my sights set on the Rhino and it finally came through for me. My 2 1/2 years as a WSO in that jet will forever remain my fondest memory outside of family and friends.

I'd gotten my ratings and flight instructed some in the meantime. After a few years of being one of those peons Typhoon1244 felt sorry for I got off my a$$, got recurrent, and got hired at ASA. Things couldn't have turned out better! I love the CRJ and miss it if I go a couple weeks without flying.

I work 3 days a week, leaving plenty of time for AF Reserve flying and catching a bass or two. Also, I've not noticed this in other posts, but when people find out I'm a pilot they're usually a bit envious. Like the television commercial a couple years back, no little kid came home from school and breathlessly announced "I wanna be a yes-man," or "I'm gonna be a brown-noser!"

Once again, great post, folks. I really enjoy sharing this forum with all of you.

 

[Timebuilder]

Like the television commercial a couple years back, no little kid came home from school and breathlessly announced "I wanna be a yes-man," or "I'm gonna be a brown-noser!"

I remember that commercial. Inspired copywriting, to be sure.

It was great to have a flying job, as I mentioned back on page one. You never know what path life will present to you. I'm hoping to do well enough to at least have a beat up cessna waiting for me at TEB when I leave the recording studio. We'll see.

 

[KingAirKiddo]

Re: by the way...

was just reading through old threads and got a chuckle.

I'm currently working for the so-called "Pudunk Air" we were talking about.

No furloughs yet (keeping my fingers crossed).

Chalk me up as another one watching the situation at "Podunk Air" very carefully...sure would hate to go through my second furlough in a 12 month period

 

[TCAS]

They'll never know the fear you felt conducting your first single-pilot ILS to minimums-100 in blowing snow with the aircraft covered in ice...the boss yelling, "fly or you're fired!".

They will never be able to understand what it was like being a copilot for 4 years in a 19 seat airliner...no autopilot ... Utica ... Syracuse ... Binghamton ... "May I take your bag ma'am? Yes I'm old enough to fly this thing." ... Watertown ... Ogdensburg ... "Was that lightning?" ... Plattsburgh ...

Wow... that sequence took me back to the old days at Brockway Air! But didn't you forget Massena after Ogdensburg in that sequence?

We used to have a day of flying that started in PWM to BOS, BOS to ALB, ALB to SYR, SYR to ART, ART to OGS, OGS to MSS, MSS to SYR, SYR to ART, ART to OGS, OGS to MSS, MSS to BTV, BTV finally to PLB to call it a day. Twelve legs, no autopilot in an eleven hour day in the Mighty Beech B or newer C model. Hmmmm... I guess there are some things I don't miss!

 

[FurloughedAgain]

aww...

aww... come on. Don't you miss it even a little?

I remember some Sunday shifts that went JST-PIT-AOO-PIT-JST-PIT-JST-PIT-AOO-PIT-JST in the mighty Jetstream 3100.

I remember some nights flying freight from EWN-PGV-RDU-GSO-CLT-ATL-CLT-GSO-RDU-PGV-EWN in a 402 with no operating radar, boots, etc.

That was back when competitive mins to be a Dash 7 or Dash 8 copilot at Piedmont were better than 3000 TT and 500 ME and you had to have logged some lunar-landings to get an interview at Eagle.

 

[bobbysamd]

Late '80s quals

That was back when competitive mins to be a Dash 7 or Dash 8 copilot at Piedmont were better than 3000 TT and 500 ME and you had to have logged some lunar-landings to get an interview at Eagle.

I had something like 2900 total and 650 of multi but no lunar landings when Eagle brought me in to interview in October, 1990.

Maybe not having lunar landings is why I wasn't hired . . . . .

 

[Whirlwind]

Wow...

What can I say, I am grateful that the experienced guys took the time to share all the experiences in this thread. I just found it and spent the past hour reading it. Very enlightening...

Just broke 500 hours last week and I'm amazed at how much I still learn on each flight. I'm also happy to report that I love every minute, be it learning or teaching or both (usually both).

Been teaching now for 6 weeks in the fling-wing, got my add-on stuck-wing CFI checkride coming up on Thursday, and looking forward to teaching in that as well. I don't care if it is a 172 bugsmasher or a Boeing 777 world cruiser, I love to fly!!!

I'm a pilot, have been since I was about 6, just had a few detours along the way. Spent almost 10 years in the IT world, working on computer networks and making some good money, but being miserable most of the time with the boring work and lousy hours.

My first flight was in my grandfather's Beech Sierra, what a cool plane that was! Flew in my uncle's 182 and then later his Bonanza when I was a kid. Went to the UND summer camp program when I was 14, got to fly a number of different aircraft there including my first helicopter. Went to space camp twice, always wanted to be an astronaut too, perhaps with the spaceships being built for the X-Prize, that may still happen...

Now I've finally joined up with what I want to do, and have fun work and lousy hours.

Oh well, I'm happy because yesterday I went flying, and today I get to go flying, and tomorrow I'm going flying too!!! Wahoo!!!!!!!!!!!

Yep, I'm still that wet behind the ears kid with the ear-to-ear grin, and yes I think the Mighty Beech (Sierra, Bonanza, or 1900, it's all the same to me) is just as cool as the Mighty Boeing!)

I am no in rush to the left seat of anything, I may or may not end up an airline, I might just fly helicopters for a living, who knows. I hope to experience all kinds of flying, it's an amazing journey and I'm just at the start!!!

BTW, when I was a kid, I read Richard Bach's books about 50 times. Anyone else love those things?

Oh, one other thing, there was a special on TNT in 1989 called "Reaching for the Skies". I still have it recorded on faded VHS tapes, it was before the era of Discovery Wings and all that. Wonderful 12 hour program!!!

Fly Safe!