Unrealistic Expectations

[FurloughedAgain]

Kingair Kiddo

Kingairkiddo,

Good post.

I'll accept your deal providing you be nice to the old guy in the right seat and maybe swap walkarounds every couple of legs.

For what its worth, my original post was not directed at young pilots, but rather pilots of a different generation who were groomed with different expectations.

I flew with a guy for three days a few weeks ago who had his nose in the air. He constantly moaned and groaned and lamented that his vast experience hadnt led him to a more preferred path. If the way he spoke to me was indicative of the way he spoke to all of his F/Os, then it is a minor miracle that his name was not scribed on the bathroom wall.

I asked him how long he had been doing this, and what he had done before.

"I've been here three years," he responded, "and I was a flight instructor before this."

Certainly a respectable profession, but not an excuse for the attitude that he now carried. It wasnt his AGE that vexed me...it was his ATTITUDE.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Another thought...

Several years ago when I was a wet-behind-the ears copilot on the mighty Douglas Racer (DC9) I flew with a Captain who, years ago, had worked for Braniff. He was in this late 50s and a very junior captain at my company. I revered his stories of how the airlines "used" to be.

After a few legs we fell silent, both lost in our own thoughts. I looked down at Kansas City from my window and asked him, "Jim -- if you dont mind me asking -- What was it like to go from being a 747 captain at Braniff to F/O on the Bac 1-11 here?"

Jim sighed and paused as he sipped his coffee then looked at me and said, "Gear up, clear right, I'll take the chicken."

I knew what he meant. If you truly love to fly, then that is what you do -- fly.

I love baseball movies. To me they characterize the american spirit -- the dreams and fantasies of each and every little boy. It occurs to me that the airlines are a lot like baseball in many ways.

Thousands of pilots are certified each and every year. Many of them from high-dollar aviation universities, groomed to be airline captains. (Remember those ERAU kids in their Tobagos on a 10 mile final to Flagler County Airport -- what were they DOING up there??)

They didnt all go to the commuters -- especially when times were bad. I have a close friend who chose to become a financial analyst, another who became a dispatcher, still another who sells time for fractionals. A few of my friends from one of those schools were lucky enough to join the minor leagues -- the regionals.

The regionals are a lot like the minors. Low pay, lousy hotels, crappy working conditions -- but at least we're playing baseball! Some terrific players make their careers in the minors. They spend the vast majority of their careers away from their homes and families in fleabag motels all for the love of baseball.

Every so often a player gets called to the majors. The big game. If he is extremely fortunate he'll retire there, but as sometimes happens, he (or she) is sent back to the minors and thats ok. -- It's still baseball.

There is still the feeling of the ball in your hand, barely touching your fingertips as you stare down the batter. The dust beneath your feet as you dig in for the pitch. The artificial light casting its glow upon the field, and the smell of stale beer in the air. A hush falls over the crowd as you pitch, silently hoping that perhaps a scout is in that crowd ...

It's still baseball.

"Gear up, clear right, I'll take the chicken."

 

[KingAirKiddo]

It's a deal...

Furloughed Again,

You are one of the great ones.

I'll look for you on the line. I know you will be the guy with some gray hair and a content expression sitting in the terminal chair taking it all in. I'll watch as you turn your head to the terminal window and the runway beyond, watching a Jetstream or a 757 as it slips into the air so gracefully. I'll see a small smile form at the corner of your lips and know that I am in the presence of a true professional. For what it's worth, I'm still the kid with the ear to ear grin standing against the wall observing. I'll give you a nod as I straighten my tie and walk through the door to the ramp beyond, board my airliner and begin another day in the life.

Best of luck to you and all the other thousands who have been cut from the team for awhile. A new season will start someday, and we'll all be back playing the game that we play best.

Regards,
KingAirKiddo

 

[beats working]

Required reading during indoc

There are a million things that I "should" have been doing for the last 20 minutes other than reading and contemplating this thread. I'm on my first day off from from my first airline job. I have bills to pay, a garage to clean, an oil change to do... However I don't think that there could possibly be a better use of my time than reading this thread and appreciating my good fortune. Furloghed Again, and everyone else-- I truly appreciate your eloquent and thoughtful perspective.

I just finished the first week of CRJ training at ACA. Of all of the important "stuff" that we learned this week, there could be no better homework than reading this post. I plan on copying it and passing it out to my class. One day at lunch I was speaking with a flight instructor who got the same job with only around 1000 hours. While I was happy for this person, I must admit that I was slightly resentful that I had "paid dues" in the charter world while this person was waltzing in relatively easily. Now after reading your stories of what it was like years ago and the "dues" you all paid, I am reminded of how fortunate I am to be in my current situation. And I have you to thank for this reaffirmed and strengthened perpective.

Thank you,
BW

 

[aewanabe]

Amen brothas!
Yes, all of us should be thankful if we are getting paid to fly airplanes, no matter in what capacity. Although I freely admit full-time instructing was starting to wear on me, not because of the teaching, but because it wasn't my job to fly; I love driving airplanes.
So now, even in this job market, I've landed a job flying checks in old Lances and occasionally a Baron. I go to work and thank God that someone wants to pay ME to drive an airplane for 6 hours a day, log IMC, shoot approaches, etc., and all I have to do is take a few hundred pounds of checks with me! Though my ultimate dream is still to be an airline pilot, I'm loving this stop on the journey. I still believe I will see the cockpit of a 1900, ERJ, CRJ-whatever before too long, it's just my perspective on what is too long has drastically changed. And I'm a better pilot and person for it. Right now I have a flying job that works 5 days a week, 4 if there's a bank holiday, and I'm home every night. Had I gone right from instructing to the regionals, I never would have experienced that

(BTW KAK, are you really loving every minute in 738YR? (Grin) Heard anything about your class date? Great posts; looks like you were up as late as I was last night.)

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Freight Dog

I flew freight in Barons and Cessna 402's in the Southeast for a while. Was a great job except for the thunderstorms, icing, loading your own freight, etc.

Seriously though the pay was great and it was some of the most enjoyable flying I've ever done.

Enjoy it!

 

[727cargoAv8R]

I was having dinner with a good friend the other night. He is a furloughed United pilot. As a minor leaguer I said I was glad I was not hired by a major in the previous two years, then we both stopped and said almost simultaneously " Isn't that a bizarre thing to say". It just shows how quickly your perception of the world can change. I like the baseball analogy a great deal. I don't know if I will ever get to the big leagues, but I am truly glad to have a flying job. It is so easy to get caught up in the negative atmosphere that pilots can project. Every night I see a room full of unhappy faces in the hub and I think man how many people would love to fly a 727 even if it is only night cargo. Thanks for a terrific thread.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

You're Welcome

You're very welcome.

I only wish we could share it with all of the young Captains who were able to quickly move to the left seat at the regionals.

Whoever said that "Life is not the destination so much as the journey." was entirely correct.

I think we've started some interesting discussion. I would personally love to hear from furloughed pilots who have something they would like to share with their new captains or F/Os.

I also would love to hear from some of the pilots who were fortunate enough to become these 2-year captains. I am interested in learning what makes them feel so angry -- so betrayed by our industry.

Today is September 8th. One year ago if someone had told me that I'd be a regional airline F/O today, I would have laughed. Our lives have forever changed. It goes to prove that every American was impacted deeply by the cowardly attack on our soil on September 11th. Some lost friends, loved ones, and coworkers. All of us felt the deep anger and resentment that OUR airplanes were taken from us and used to conduct these attacks. THAT is, in my opinion, the only reason any of us have to be angry.

Lets keep the thread going.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: You're Welcome

I also would love to hear from some of the pilots who were fortunate enough to become these 2-year captains. I am interested in learning what makes them feel so angry -- so betrayed by our industry.

Okay.

I can't say I feel betrayed by the industry, or anybody else, for that matter. In fact, I'm a little awed by the spectacular luck that has so far graced my career.

A summary: My father taught me how to fly, got me all the way up to my CFI. After college and a stint in the Army (enlisted), I got my instructor ratings at F.S.I., entered their "New Hire Pilot" program, and got hired by A.S.A. Summer of '98, the middle of the first of two big hiring sprees. Upgraded on the Brasilia Summer of '99, transitioned to the jet in '00. I'm one of those nuts who really enjoys the flying he's doing here, and decided he's probably staying at A.S.A....barring some unforseen dramatic change in my life.

I may occasionally complain about the undermanning of the ramp, the lack of foresight in crew scheduling, or the hostility of our mainline bretheren, but when it comes right down to it...like all the ex-military guys made it a point of saying when my new hire class introduced itself..."I'm happy to be here." I was in exactly the right place at exactly the right time with exactly the right credentials.

The only time my job becomes unpleasant is when I'm forced to fly with a first officer who's five-to-ten years older, has double or triple my time, and makes it a point of telling me how cheated they feel and how undeserving I am. I'm sorry if my allotment of luck exceeded yours or if my timing was better...but I didn't get into this industry with my eye on cheating anybody. I've flown with countless captains and F/O's who spent the mid-'90's working at Wal-Mart, hauling checks, etc, etc. I listen to these horror stories, and I feel bad about what you had to endure just to fly, and I thank whatever forces that guide our lives that I didn't have to suffer those same indignities.

But once we get in the cockpit, we have a job to do, and we need to draw on our combined experience and education to accomplish it safely and efficiently. Bruised or inflated egos only get in the way.

There are high-time F/O's who conduct themselves as what they are, extremely experienced first officers. They are a joy to fly with, and I've learned a lot from them. (There's a little red guy in here who's always beating his head against the wall...he's a good example...first-rate pilot.) But there are also those who conduct themselves every day as displaced Gods who've been wronged by the world, and they're going to take it out on me and anyone else who's handy. And when I'm stuck flying with one of them, my dream job becomes a drudgery. (Some of you sound very humble here on-line, but when you spend a day flying with someone like me...I wonder who really does all the complaining.)

I love airplanes. I love everything about them, and have since I was three years old (which was in 1975, if you were curious). I've had exceptionally good teachers, including my father (the finest airline captain that ever lived), and virtually every captain and first officer I've ever flown with. When the curtain opened before me in '98, I took my chances--like we all did--stepped through and took what I got. And you know what? I couldn't be happier...and I can't believe my luck. Like all of us, I can't say how much longer the ride will last, but I'm sure enjoying myself now.

Well. You wanted to know how some of us "two-year captains" feel. I can only speak for myself...now you know.

 

[MetroSheriff]

Great post, Typhoon.

I think we all know it's a he11 of a lot more fun to fly with someone who likes their job (company) and, more importantly, loves flying.

You know, we should start an enlightenment campaign. We should help[/] convince all the malcontents out there, how bad their life is, how bad their jobs suck, and what a great idea it would be for them to quit and go into accounting or something.

Just think, those of us who really have the flying bug would see our seniority skyrocket.

Not to mention, that parasite Kit Darby (AirInc.), would finally get his "pilot shortage".

 

[MetroSheriff]

BTW,

Great thread everyone.

 

[FD109]

You're Welcome

Like all of us, I can't say how much longer the ride will last, but I'm sure enjoying myself now...well. You wanted to know how some of us "two-year captains"feel. I can only speak for myself...now you know.

Ernie Gann couldn't have said it better. Keep having fun!!

 

[414Flyer]

I think there were two quotes on this thread that people should read, and read again, and keep in mind throughout their flying careers:



and



I think if you focus more on the journey to flying the big iron, all the people you'll meet, all the places you'll get to go, all the experiences you have..... rather than the end goal, it will be a much more enjoyable ride.

And, as quoted above, remember, this industry is cyclical. What comes around goes around. It might not be the greatest now, but it will eventually turn around, and all of us will have significantly better chances of attaining our dream flying job.

Yeah I get somewhat exasperated with people who think flying is about the destination (that major airline seat), and not about enjoying it in the meantime. To those types, its not a real job unless it is a major airline, and they look down on anyone who isnt doing that for a career. I intend to enjoy my career as a pilot, regardless of how big a plane I end up in. And I will not shed any tears if I do not end up flying big iron, as long as it was fun along the way

 

[TurboS7]

For the love of the game................nice posts.

 

[Aviator]

This has got to be one of the best threads I've ever seen on this board. Many excellent posts especially from FurloughedAgain.

 

[I.P. Freley]

Furloughed Again... I tip my hat to you. You are a true pro, and I do wish I had the opportunity to share the cockpit with more like you. A true pilot flies and doesn't bemoan his equipment as not being "good enough" or how annoyed he is about how United isn't calling yet.

Somehow the collected tales of this thread remind me of a story of my own from about two years ago when I was jumpseating on a CRJ. I wandered into the cockpit to introduce myself, grateful that the captain was gracious enough to let someone who didn't work for his company (nor had any affiliation whatsoever with his outfit) sit inches over his right shoulder for an hour and a half. After exchanging the usual pleasantries and fiddling with the jumpseat for a minute or two, the inevitable "so what are you flying?" question came up... "The Mighty Beech", I said. Well, you simply wouldn't have believed the look of disdain that coursed across the FO's face... Didn't even try to hide it. The funny part was I then looked at the captain, who happened to be looking at the FO, and HIS expression was absolutely priceless and easy to interpret... "What is THAT face for??" Well it seems the captain on this airplane had spent four years or so flying the 1900C and D-models, and he waxed eloquently about how much he missed flying the plane... While the FO sat there, smugly disinterested in the entire conversation.

Anyhoo... Fast-forward to half an hour into the flight, and the FO announces he has to go use the bathroom. After awkardly extricating myself from the jumpseat to let him out and locking the door behind me, the captain turns to me and says "Tell you what, don't let that kid back in here. The biggest thing he flew before this was Seminole and he thinks the world owes him MY seat... Two months on the line and he's an old pro, seen it all, and he doesn't even have a thousand hours yet. He'd probably have a heart attack if he had to fly a 1900. These bridge program kids are all the same, think they've got it all figured out and they are above everyone else who works for this company who's in a prop, or ever flew a prop for that matter."

I just sat there, snickering and wondering just how serious he was about not letting the FO back in the cockpit.

 

[Typhoon1244]

While the FO sat there, smugly disinterested in the entire conversation.

I've seen similar reactions, talking to jumpseaters about learning how to fly from a 1000-foot grass strip...as opposed to a college campus.

Loved your post until I got to this sentence:

These bridge program kids are all the same, think they've got it all figured out and they are above everyone else who works for this company who's in a prop, or ever flew a prop for that matter.

Going through a "bridge program" does not automatically strip you of all perspective. (I even know some guys with lots of 1900 time that came across the bridge...)

 

[Snow]

As a student soon to begin a advanced flying training program having finished college, I'd just like to say I think the prospect of flying turboprops would be great fun! Firstly I just love the sound that they make, I think they're far more interesting to ride on as a passinger than a 737! Plus I'd think you'd get a wealth of exprence flying to both large and small airports, controlled and uncontrolled in all sorts of conditions and often without an auto pilot. Not to say I wouldn't want a job with the majors, but I would think you'd learn a lot more and have a lot more interesting exprenceces in a TP with a regional than a 777 at the majors. And yes I know about the long hours and sometimes 7day weeks, but hey... your getting paid flying arn't you? If it's somthing you love, then it's hardly a chore, the pay is just a bonus.

 

[Freight Dog]

AWESOME thread... absolutely awesome.

I am a 26 year old who's fortunate to be living in paradise flying in the left seat of a Dash 8 between the Hawaiian Islands having only spent 1 year in the right seat.

In my career so far, I've done a little bit of everything except banner-towing and flight instructing. I flew skydivers, VFR 135 tours, single pilot 135 night cargo, and one thing is clear - I wouldn't trade it for any other job out there. If I was to get stuck in a Piper Lance for years flying checks, I'd take it with stride, and be happy I'm flying. Sure, I'd b*tch and moan - which pilot doesn't, but would I trade it for an office job? Not just no, but HE11 NO!!!

For those who feel "stuck" where they are... think of it this way - you could be working 7-6 office job 5 days a week and fight the rush hour traffic day in and day out, and only wonder what could have happened if you stuck it out whenever you see an airplane fly overhead.

If you are in this industry because you wouldn't be happy doing anything else, you've got it made even if you don't make it to UAL 777 left seat.

However, if you are in it because you figure you'd get to make $100k+ in 3 years after graduation... you're setting yourself up for a big disappointment and probably have picked the wrong industry.

I think the NBA said it right: I LOVE THIS GAME!

Keep up the great posts!

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Typhoon

Typhoon,

Please do not take the posts here personally -- perhaps I'm reading you wrong, but you seem a bit defensive.

This thread isnt about age, or experience, or bridge programs, or flight instructing -- its about attitude.

Its about a new generation of pilots who were not told the truth. In all of their aviation training, they were never given any training on the aviation industry and, as a result, they feel cheated.

Another one of my favorite captains from years past told me once, "There's no such thing as an airline career... just your next airline job."

This thread is about sharing experiences with pilots who did not have the opportunity to learn about the generations of pilots who came before. The ones who dont understand what happened at New York Air, People's Express, Eastern and Continental. The ones who snicker when they see a PanAm 727 -- not remembering that PanAm was, at one time, the most powerful airline and most recognized corporate symbol on the planet.

It's about I.P. Freely being "snubbed" for flying a Beech by a junior first officer.

This is a thread about welcoming this generation of pilots to the bottom of the aviation economic cycle... educating them... and helping them to understand that perhaps some of the expectations that they had for their "career" were a bit unrealistic.

Its not a career, after all, its just another job. Do you love flying enough to keep it -- whatever the cost?