Unrealistic Expectations

[AZaviator]

I think there were two quotes on this thread that people should read, and read again, and keep in mind throughout their flying careers:

For those of you who havent been through the downturn...hang on tight. It isnt going to be enjoyable...it isnt going to be fast...but eventually the cycle will reverse.

and

To those who are going to rough it out.. hang in there, this profession is one continous rough, bumpy and winding road... But remember Life is not about the destination, it is the journey...

I think if you focus more on the journey to flying the big iron, all the people you'll meet, all the places you'll get to go, all the experiences you have..... rather than the end goal, it will be a much more enjoyable ride.

And, as quoted above, remember, this industry is cyclical. What comes around goes around. It might not be the greatest now, but it will eventually turn around, and all of us will have significantly better chances of attaining our dream flying job.

 

[bobbysamd]

You know, I wrote this as reaction to the many conversations and arguments I've shared with my flying partners over the last few months . . . . Many of the pilots who were hired at the regionals in the late 90's (a decade) later were hired directly from university flight programs (UND, ERAU, you name it...). Many of them did very little flying outside of school -- maybe a few hundred hours of flight instruction and not much more. They came to the regionals and in less than two years -- sometimes less than a SINGLE year -- they have upgraded to Captain on high performance turboprops and regional jets . . . . What amazes me is how ANGRY these pilots are . . . .

I started reading this board just over a year ago after having virtually no contact or thought about aviation for eight years. I, too, couldn't believe the anger, and how so many of these folks felt that they were owed. Nine-ten years ago, when I was in the same position as many of them were before hire but several years older than them, I would have jumped for joy just to be invited to class at a commuter. For me, flying an RJ would have been way beyond my wildest dreams. Read my other posts. I'm sure my frustration is apparent. But, not once did I ever feel that I was owed. Therefore, I, too, don't understand the anger.

I think that their expectations were unreasonable -- and I blame it completely on the aviation universities. For four years these young men and women were groomed to expect greatness. They watched as their friends graduated and moved quickly to the regionals, flew for two or three years and moved on to United. Heck...many of those people were only at United for 4 or 5 years before they upgraded! Why didnt anyone tell them the truth?

Agreed. May I throw in another dig against Kit Darby for fomenting these unreasonable expectations by way of his "pilot shortage?"

Once again, stupendous comments. I hope that the folks to whom you're directing them would take your comments to heart and reflect on them, and not blow them off.

 

[mar]

Words fail me

Furloughed Again--To be perfectly honest I can't ever recall ever reading any of your other posts, but after the one above I worship the ground you walk on.

You said everything I feel.

Peace

 

[Typhoon1244]

What amazes me is how ANGRY these pilots are. They're angry that it took them so LONG (?) to upgrade.

I switched seats in the Brasilia after twelve months. So happy I almost sh_t myself. I had expected it to take four or five years. It took my father eighteen.

They're angry that they're flying a prop, while their ex-room-mate is flying a jet.

Prop, jet, ornithopter...I didn't care. It was an airliner!

They're angry that there is no flowthrough and that this precludes them from going directly to a major with no interview whatsoever.

Heck, if we'd had a flow-through, some Delta guy would be sitting in my seat right now. I didn't want it then, and I certainly don't want it now...or ever!

When I saw the second 767 hit the WTC, I said to myself, "self, you're going to retire as an ASA pilot...maybe in the left seat of a 70-seat jet, probably making about what dad was making in the left seat of the Nine at Eastern." You know what? There are a heckuva lot worse places to be.

They're angry that the pay and workrules they are operating under are not what they expected.

I wouldn't trust anybody who interviews without knowing about the pay and work rules of the company in question. I knew exactly what I was getting myself into. Besides, with the exception of the size of the paycheck, my working conditions are not much less than they would be at a major anyway, thanks in part to ALPA.

Angry? You know how I feel about my two-bit little regional job? Lucky! Seriously, galactically, f___ing lucky! Hey, I didn't get this job because I'm Chuck Yeager or John King. I was in exactly the right place at exactly the right time.

Just wanted you to know there are some of us "young guys" out here with some perspective.

 

[KingAirKiddo]

Middle of the night rant....

I hesitated to write a reply to the original post, because I fit the young demographic in question. I was in middle school during the early 90's, attended an aviation university, and am now awaiting a class date with a large regional airline at the age of 24. And you know what...I AM THE LUCKIEST S.O.B. IN THE WORLD! I still love each and every minute in the air, whether in a C172, Baron, King Air, or whatever. I have been extraordinarily blessed thus far in my career, and hope that I never lose sight of why I got into this business to begin with.

Your generation, Furloughed Again and others, is the one that I revered as I was growing up. Remember that 10 year old kid with the ear to ear grin as he boarded your Beech 1900 in Bradford, PA in the dead of winter? That was me. I watched you as you performed your walk around and wanted to run out onto the ramp and ask you all kinds of questions about this strange looking bird. I was disappointed when you closed the cockpit curtain because I wanted to see everything that was going on up there in the front office. We lined up on the runway and the power from those mighty PT-6's pushed me back in my seat, and suddenly we were flying!!! The snowflakes were basked in an inte rmittent red light as we climbed into the night, on our way to Pittsburgh, "or wherever your final destination happens to be". It was that night that I knew for sure I never wanted to do anything else for a living. I was going to become an airline pilot.

I didn't know that night that you probably ate crackers from a vending machine for dinner because you couldn't afford a real meal, or that your 9 year old car was on its last leg without a replacement in sight. I didn't know that your ticket to the right seat of that 1900 included spending a few thousand hours flying cancelled checks or car parts in a decrepit old Apache or Baron. I found all that out later when I was mapping out my own course to the right seat, and you know what...I WAS STILL WILLING TO DO IT. A good economy and a huge amount of luck dictated that I didn't have to, and for that I am genuinely blessed. So here's my deal to you. First and foremost, I will remember how truly blessed I am to be flying for a living in whatever capacity it happens to be. I will remember the sacrifices you and others made to make it possible for me to sit in the right seat of an airliner under a contract which improves with each negotiation. I will show you the respect that you deserve for going through hell and back to get to where you are today and for working so hard to make the industry better for us all. In return, I ask only that you do not assume that just because I am young that I am a punk who feels I am entitled to something for nothing. Please continue to use the benefit of your experience to teach me the ins and outs of the industry and show me how to restore honor to our profession. It's a different ballgame with some different players, but the rules are still basically the same. We must work together in a symbiotic relationship to better the profession as a whole instead of focusing on our myopic little corners of it.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts. Open forums like this are an excellent means to gain different perspective and learn a little something about each other and the profession that we love. Everybody keep up the good work.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Kingair Kiddo

Kingairkiddo,

Good post.

I'll accept your deal providing you be nice to the old guy in the right seat and maybe swap walkarounds every couple of legs.

For what its worth, my original post was not directed at young pilots, but rather pilots of a different generation who were groomed with different expectations.

I flew with a guy for three days a few weeks ago who had his nose in the air. He constantly moaned and groaned and lamented that his vast experience hadnt led him to a more preferred path. If the way he spoke to me was indicative of the way he spoke to all of his F/Os, then it is a minor miracle that his name was not scribed on the bathroom wall.

I asked him how long he had been doing this, and what he had done before.

"I've been here three years," he responded, "and I was a flight instructor before this."

Certainly a respectable profession, but not an excuse for the attitude that he now carried. It wasnt his AGE that vexed me...it was his ATTITUDE.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Another thought...

Several years ago when I was a wet-behind-the ears copilot on the mighty Douglas Racer (DC9) I flew with a Captain who, years ago, had worked for Braniff. He was in this late 50s and a very junior captain at my company. I revered his stories of how the airlines "used" to be.

After a few legs we fell silent, both lost in our own thoughts. I looked down at Kansas City from my window and asked him, "Jim -- if you dont mind me asking -- What was it like to go from being a 747 captain at Braniff to F/O on the Bac 1-11 here?"

Jim sighed and paused as he sipped his coffee then looked at me and said, "Gear up, clear right, I'll take the chicken."

I knew what he meant. If you truly love to fly, then that is what you do -- fly.

I love baseball movies. To me they characterize the american spirit -- the dreams and fantasies of each and every little boy. It occurs to me that the airlines are a lot like baseball in many ways.

Thousands of pilots are certified each and every year. Many of them from high-dollar aviation universities, groomed to be airline captains. (Remember those ERAU kids in their Tobagos on a 10 mile final to Flagler County Airport -- what were they DOING up there??)

They didnt all go to the commuters -- especially when times were bad. I have a close friend who chose to become a financial analyst, another who became a dispatcher, still another who sells time for fractionals. A few of my friends from one of those schools were lucky enough to join the minor leagues -- the regionals.

The regionals are a lot like the minors. Low pay, lousy hotels, crappy working conditions -- but at least we're playing baseball! Some terrific players make their careers in the minors. They spend the vast majority of their careers away from their homes and families in fleabag motels all for the love of baseball.

Every so often a player gets called to the majors. The big game. If he is extremely fortunate he'll retire there, but as sometimes happens, he (or she) is sent back to the minors and thats ok. -- It's still baseball.

There is still the feeling of the ball in your hand, barely touching your fingertips as you stare down the batter. The dust beneath your feet as you dig in for the pitch. The artificial light casting its glow upon the field, and the smell of stale beer in the air. A hush falls over the crowd as you pitch, silently hoping that perhaps a scout is in that crowd ...

It's still baseball.

"Gear up, clear right, I'll take the chicken."

 

[KingAirKiddo]

It's a deal...

Furloughed Again,

You are one of the great ones.

I'll look for you on the line. I know you will be the guy with some gray hair and a content expression sitting in the terminal chair taking it all in. I'll watch as you turn your head to the terminal window and the runway beyond, watching a Jetstream or a 757 as it slips into the air so gracefully. I'll see a small smile form at the corner of your lips and know that I am in the presence of a true professional. For what it's worth, I'm still the kid with the ear to ear grin standing against the wall observing. I'll give you a nod as I straighten my tie and walk through the door to the ramp beyond, board my airliner and begin another day in the life.

Best of luck to you and all the other thousands who have been cut from the team for awhile. A new season will start someday, and we'll all be back playing the game that we play best.

Regards,
KingAirKiddo

 

[beats working]

Required reading during indoc

There are a million things that I "should" have been doing for the last 20 minutes other than reading and contemplating this thread. I'm on my first day off from from my first airline job. I have bills to pay, a garage to clean, an oil change to do... However I don't think that there could possibly be a better use of my time than reading this thread and appreciating my good fortune. Furloghed Again, and everyone else-- I truly appreciate your eloquent and thoughtful perspective.

I just finished the first week of CRJ training at ACA. Of all of the important "stuff" that we learned this week, there could be no better homework than reading this post. I plan on copying it and passing it out to my class. One day at lunch I was speaking with a flight instructor who got the same job with only around 1000 hours. While I was happy for this person, I must admit that I was slightly resentful that I had "paid dues" in the charter world while this person was waltzing in relatively easily. Now after reading your stories of what it was like years ago and the "dues" you all paid, I am reminded of how fortunate I am to be in my current situation. And I have you to thank for this reaffirmed and strengthened perpective.

Thank you,
BW

 

[aewanabe]

Amen brothas!
Yes, all of us should be thankful if we are getting paid to fly airplanes, no matter in what capacity. Although I freely admit full-time instructing was starting to wear on me, not because of the teaching, but because it wasn't my job to fly; I love driving airplanes.
So now, even in this job market, I've landed a job flying checks in old Lances and occasionally a Baron. I go to work and thank God that someone wants to pay ME to drive an airplane for 6 hours a day, log IMC, shoot approaches, etc., and all I have to do is take a few hundred pounds of checks with me! Though my ultimate dream is still to be an airline pilot, I'm loving this stop on the journey. I still believe I will see the cockpit of a 1900, ERJ, CRJ-whatever before too long, it's just my perspective on what is too long has drastically changed. And I'm a better pilot and person for it. Right now I have a flying job that works 5 days a week, 4 if there's a bank holiday, and I'm home every night. Had I gone right from instructing to the regionals, I never would have experienced that

(BTW KAK, are you really loving every minute in 738YR? (Grin) Heard anything about your class date? Great posts; looks like you were up as late as I was last night.)

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Freight Dog

I flew freight in Barons and Cessna 402's in the Southeast for a while. Was a great job except for the thunderstorms, icing, loading your own freight, etc.

Seriously though the pay was great and it was some of the most enjoyable flying I've ever done.

Enjoy it!

 

[727cargoAv8R]

I was having dinner with a good friend the other night. He is a furloughed United pilot. As a minor leaguer I said I was glad I was not hired by a major in the previous two years, then we both stopped and said almost simultaneously " Isn't that a bizarre thing to say". It just shows how quickly your perception of the world can change. I like the baseball analogy a great deal. I don't know if I will ever get to the big leagues, but I am truly glad to have a flying job. It is so easy to get caught up in the negative atmosphere that pilots can project. Every night I see a room full of unhappy faces in the hub and I think man how many people would love to fly a 727 even if it is only night cargo. Thanks for a terrific thread.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

You're Welcome

You're very welcome.

I only wish we could share it with all of the young Captains who were able to quickly move to the left seat at the regionals.

Whoever said that "Life is not the destination so much as the journey." was entirely correct.

I think we've started some interesting discussion. I would personally love to hear from furloughed pilots who have something they would like to share with their new captains or F/Os.

I also would love to hear from some of the pilots who were fortunate enough to become these 2-year captains. I am interested in learning what makes them feel so angry -- so betrayed by our industry.

Today is September 8th. One year ago if someone had told me that I'd be a regional airline F/O today, I would have laughed. Our lives have forever changed. It goes to prove that every American was impacted deeply by the cowardly attack on our soil on September 11th. Some lost friends, loved ones, and coworkers. All of us felt the deep anger and resentment that OUR airplanes were taken from us and used to conduct these attacks. THAT is, in my opinion, the only reason any of us have to be angry.

Lets keep the thread going.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: You're Welcome

I also would love to hear from some of the pilots who were fortunate enough to become these 2-year captains. I am interested in learning what makes them feel so angry -- so betrayed by our industry.

Okay.

I can't say I feel betrayed by the industry, or anybody else, for that matter. In fact, I'm a little awed by the spectacular luck that has so far graced my career.

A summary: My father taught me how to fly, got me all the way up to my CFI. After college and a stint in the Army (enlisted), I got my instructor ratings at F.S.I., entered their "New Hire Pilot" program, and got hired by A.S.A. Summer of '98, the middle of the first of two big hiring sprees. Upgraded on the Brasilia Summer of '99, transitioned to the jet in '00. I'm one of those nuts who really enjoys the flying he's doing here, and decided he's probably staying at A.S.A....barring some unforseen dramatic change in my life.

I may occasionally complain about the undermanning of the ramp, the lack of foresight in crew scheduling, or the hostility of our mainline bretheren, but when it comes right down to it...like all the ex-military guys made it a point of saying when my new hire class introduced itself..."I'm happy to be here." I was in exactly the right place at exactly the right time with exactly the right credentials.

The only time my job becomes unpleasant is when I'm forced to fly with a first officer who's five-to-ten years older, has double or triple my time, and makes it a point of telling me how cheated they feel and how undeserving I am. I'm sorry if my allotment of luck exceeded yours or if my timing was better...but I didn't get into this industry with my eye on cheating anybody. I've flown with countless captains and F/O's who spent the mid-'90's working at Wal-Mart, hauling checks, etc, etc. I listen to these horror stories, and I feel bad about what you had to endure just to fly, and I thank whatever forces that guide our lives that I didn't have to suffer those same indignities.

But once we get in the cockpit, we have a job to do, and we need to draw on our combined experience and education to accomplish it safely and efficiently. Bruised or inflated egos only get in the way.

There are high-time F/O's who conduct themselves as what they are, extremely experienced first officers. They are a joy to fly with, and I've learned a lot from them. (There's a little red guy in here who's always beating his head against the wall...he's a good example...first-rate pilot.) But there are also those who conduct themselves every day as displaced Gods who've been wronged by the world, and they're going to take it out on me and anyone else who's handy. And when I'm stuck flying with one of them, my dream job becomes a drudgery. (Some of you sound very humble here on-line, but when you spend a day flying with someone like me...I wonder who really does all the complaining.)

I love airplanes. I love everything about them, and have since I was three years old (which was in 1975, if you were curious). I've had exceptionally good teachers, including my father (the finest airline captain that ever lived), and virtually every captain and first officer I've ever flown with. When the curtain opened before me in '98, I took my chances--like we all did--stepped through and took what I got. And you know what? I couldn't be happier...and I can't believe my luck. Like all of us, I can't say how much longer the ride will last, but I'm sure enjoying myself now.

Well. You wanted to know how some of us "two-year captains" feel. I can only speak for myself...now you know.

 

[MetroSheriff]

Great post, Typhoon.

I think we all know it's a he11 of a lot more fun to fly with someone who likes their job (company) and, more importantly, loves flying.

You know, we should start an enlightenment campaign. We should help[/] convince all the malcontents out there, how bad their life is, how bad their jobs suck, and what a great idea it would be for them to quit and go into accounting or something.

Just think, those of us who really have the flying bug would see our seniority skyrocket.

Not to mention, that parasite Kit Darby (AirInc.), would finally get his "pilot shortage".