Unrealistic Expectations

[Typhoon1244]

Re: Typhoon

Typhoon, please do not take the posts here personally -- perhaps I'm reading you wrong, but you seem a bit defensive.

You're right, and I apologize for being so trigger-happy. My only excuse is weariness from reading broad generalizations about my "generation" of pilots. As the son of an Eastern striker who learned how to fly "the hard way" (that is outside the military or Embry-Riddle, etc.), it starts getting old after a while.

You know my father's airline career advice to me? "No matter what decision you make, you'll be wrong." (He interviewed with Braniff and Air America before being hired by E.A.L. in '66, went on strike in '89, been a refugee ever since.) Let's just say I'm not looking forward to our next contract vote...

But in the mean time...

Originally posted by Freight Dog
...think of it this way...you could be working 7-6 office job 5 days a week and fight the rush hour traffic day in and day out, and only wonder what could have happened if you stuck it out whenever you see an airplane fly overhead.

These are exactly my thoughts every time I come sweeping over the top of S.H.114 on my way to 18-R, and see ten million little cars lined up bumper-to-bumper, each with a little unhappy, corporate peon behind the wheel.

I have trouble relating to my neighbors, most of whom are nine-to-five-five-days-a-week types. A lot of them are "in sales." (What the hel_ does that mean, "in sales?" I've never told anyone I'm "in travel.") They have such boring little careers, and they seek out recreation in all directions to relieve the tedium.

My career is my recreation! And it's a shame that few people ever really understand what a wonderful combination that is.

(By the way, if anyone was curious, "Typhoon1244" is a reference to my favorite novel, The Caine Mutiny. Get it? The typhoon of Dec. 1944? I may change handles someday; "Typhoon" sounds like a Marvel Comics character...)

 

[V-1]

Re: Re: Typhoon

My career is my recreation! And it's a shame that few people ever really understand what a wonderful combination that is.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I took my favorite hobby and turned it into my career. Now I find myself struggling to find a new hobby I enjoy as much as flying. It's a nice dilemma to have.

 

[I.P. Freley]

Typhoon...

I'm sorry you loved my post until you got to the part about the bridge program... But I am just relating to you what the guy said to me, and I thought it was relevant to the thread. For what it's worth, I am an ERAU grad, but didn't do ALL my flight training there. For the most part I don't even mention my alma mater because you do get that certain reaction from people when you mention you are a "Riddle-ite." So... In some sense, I guess I am one of "your generation" of pilots, as you put it.

Anyway, as FurlAgain said, it's not really about age, or what college you went to, or whatever, it's about emotional maturity and the realization that not everyone reached their current position in the same manner that you did... and a lot of people who, for instance, attended gung-ho aviation universities and ended up in 121 jobs with 300 hours don't have even a shred of humility or can conceive that only ten years ago you wouldn't have even been able to get a CFI job with that kind of time.

I flew with captains at a 1900 operation who sat in the right seat for nearly FOUR YEARS before they finally got to upgrade (and we won't even mention the embarrasing pay scale that they were subject to in that right seat in the mid-90's). I'm afraid those pilots didn't suffer well the complaints of 23 year-olds who groused about having to wait an extra month to upgrade, annoyed as they were that their "promised" 15-month upgrade was now 16 months (pre-9/11 of course!).

Those people, and those who REALLY had it tough have my admiration and respect, as they are the ones who made honest-to-goodness sacrifices for their love of flying and their choice of career. Hearing today's brand-new FO's decry that they are forced to fly a "droning turboprop", or the startling behavior of SOME wet-behind-the-ears RJ FO's, who have some misplaced feelings of superiority because the equipment they fly... I hope they eventually come to realize that they are quite fortunate, indeed.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: Typhoon...

Those people, and those who REALLY had it tough have my admiration and respect...

They have mine, too. I'll never forget one captain I flew with who spent part of the early-mid '90's working as a clerk at Wal-Mart. He had 2,500 hours and everything but an ATP...and he couldn't get hired anywhere. [Shudder.]

With all do submission to those of you who went through it, I'm glad I missed out on those days...

Anyway, like I said, I was probably being a little over-defensive. FurloughedAgain said this thread is about attitude. I just want everyone to remember that the ungrateful F/O's we've been talking about don't have a monopoly on wanton mopery. I've met some 35-year major airline captains--guys who spent their entire careers at one airline--who had some pretty crappy attitudes, too.

My father has a good, close friend who used to be an Air Florida guy. I used to love sitting and listening to them talk about flying...even if I didn't always understand what they were talking about. (I was eight.) As deregulation got rolling, they started talking less and less about flying, and more and more about contracts, furloughs, scope, the Railway Labor act, Ichan, Lorenzo, strikes, duty rigs, "screw" scheduling, hostile takeovers, sick-outs, B-scales...

I wish we could all get back to talking about flying again...

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Furloughed Pilots

Just got off the phone with a friend of mine who is furloughed from US Airways.

He has about 8000 hours total time -- maybe a bit more. He's type-rated in the Jetstream, the Saab 340, and the EMB145. He flew the MD80 while at US Airways for a little over 2 years and has about 1500 hours in that.

He cant find a job and is currently selling suits at Men's Wearhouse.

Times are tough.

 

[I.P. Freley]

Amen, Typhoon, I dearly wish that we could get back to the flying conversations, and that the myriad of topics you list weren't part of our vernacular.

Since you mention Mr. E.K. Gann's book in your signature, I feel it necessary to point out to all that have "lost their way" in this industry re-read that book (or, if you haven't read it, for God's sakes, WHY NOT??)... The entire first half of the book, and in specific the first two chapters, certainly, should be required reading in ANY airline ground school.

To steal a line and reword it for my own purposes,

"It's the flying, stupid!"

 

[wafu39]

Great thread !

Just wanted to say how much I have enjoyed reading all your thoughts.

I agree with FurloughedAgain, it is ALL about attitude.

For those of you stuck in a right seat somewhere, just enjoy the flying, be the best F/O that you can, and take this opportunity to learn from the many experienced Captains that you will fly with.

No matter how bad it may seem, you still have the best job in the world!

Don't take it for granted because in this industry there are no guarantees and no-one is owed anything, by anybody.

600/844

 

[FD109]

Even in bad times, focus on good time

This is a great thread. Most of the posts have put some bad things into perspective and helped us get our thinking back closer to the right track--you'll be a lot happier if you think about the trip not the destination.

I know we all complain (after all, we are pilots) and we all know the bad things about our jobs, but never forget: The worst flying job is better than the best non-flying job.

There are so many pleasures that we experience that non-pilots will never know. Where else is someone going to turn a beautiful, multi-million-dollar, mechanical and electronic marvel over to you and let you pretty much do what ever you want to with it? And where else would you have the calibre of people who typically work in your little mobile office with you? And where else would you meet some of those marvelous characters we have in our ranks?

A pilot's career is so full of highlights that it's difficult to remember them all, and its's really difficult not to take them for granted.

Reading some of the earlier posts I was thinking about some of the highlights of my career, and there is no question what the ultimate highlight of my 35+ year career was: It wasn't when I soloed, or when I flew my first flight as an airline pilot in an Eastern CV-440, or when I flew my first flight as captain, or when I met my wife (a flight attendant) on a flight 33 years ago, or when I got the MD-80 Captain/Check Airman job at a start-up airline after Eastern died, or when the little airline I helped start operated its first flight. All those things, and a lot of others, were wonderful, but they weren't the ultimate career highlight.

The ultimate highlight of my career was when I was able to ride the jumpseat with both of my sons after they had checked out as captains. Crusty ole airline captains ain't supposed to get tears in their eyes at about Vr in this situation, but I'll bet you do too if you ever have that privilege. (By the way, mom, the ex- flight attendant was in the back. Just like mom and both kids were in the back of my airplane when I flew my first captain trip.)

Enough of this setimental crap: The point is, enjoy yourselves, have fun, and make every flight something special.

 

[TurboS7]

FD109, your a class act, great thread, and you are right on.

 

[AZaviator]

Here is a question I think most of us will have the same answer for, which is an answer most people won't have.

The question is:

What did you want to be when you were a kid?

Answer: a pilot.


Follow up question:

What are you doing now?

Answer: I'm a pilot.

Think about it. How many people get to say their career is the same career they dreamed about having, when they were a kid?! How many people have you met that said, "Oh, you're a pilot? wow, I wanted to be a pilot when I was a kid, but such and such came up, and I never did it."

I consider us to be an extraordinary group of people, who pursued our dreams and our dream jobs and have been successful, regardless if you're a CFI, a 1900FO, 747 Captain, or someone on furlough, awaiting a recall. Even if you're working on your private pilot's license, with only 10 hours, atleast you're doing something about following your dream.

We won't have to be among the people who are now saying; "woulda, coulda, shoulda".....when being asked about what their dream job would have been if they had pursued it.

This definetly is a good thread. Its such a change of pace from some of the other threads. Keep it going!

 

[bayoubandit]

I must say thanks to all who have shared the stories here. After being furloughed a year now, sometimes I lose sight, get angry, bitter, frustrated, and all those other things that we experience as pilots and people in our business. This thread definitely reminds me of what we have even when being furloughed. Eventually I'll get back in the cockpit, even if it's not at my airline.

After reading here, it's nice to think about those things that made me want to be a pilot. The walk through the terminal observing people, walking down the warm jetbridge with the smell of jetfuel getting stonger (so I'm wierd that I like that smell), climbing into the neatest office in the world, preflighting the shiny metal bird I always envisioned myself doing as a kid. The list goes on and on. Even in the worst of times with the economy, managements, unions, contracts, etc., I am still grateful that I have been blessed to work among the greatest profession and the greatest people even though we always don't agree.

FD109 made me think of my highlights. I remember getting the call from both the regional and major offering me the job. I could barely contain myself both times. My dream job finally came true. But the proudest moment was having my father in my jumpseat. On my last trip before jumping ship at my regional, my old man tagged along in the jumpseat. To have that man, the one who encouraged me to pursue my goals, the one who taught me how to fly, and the one who taught me how to be a professional to finally get to watch what I do gave me more satisfaction than most anything, as it did him.

So I may be out of a job now, but I will always have that memory, and the many other memories to hold me over and keep me in check when doom and gloom becomes too much. I may not be doing what I want to right now, but it's these thoughts that keep me going and keep me plugging away for a flying job. I would do it all over again, and this profession is definitely the best kept secret in the world. Let's not let it out.

Happy flying to all!!

 

[F.Gump]

I guess I'll throw in my .02. For the last couple of weeks Ive considered changing the title of my autobiography from So Far, So Good to When Dreams Turn Into Nightmares: The Life and Times of a Regional Airline First Officer. This thread has helped me reconnect a little to why I got into flying professionally.

As a teenager, I lived about three miles from the approach end of the local airport. In 1986 I got a motorcycle and was able to ride out to the airport and lean against the fence. All through college I went down to the local airline airport and sat at the end of the runway watchig Saabs, J31s, EMB120s and 1900s land (no regional jets yet). My first job out of colllege had me in an office that looked out at the final approach for RWY 16 at FYV, a localizer only approach into a bowl of a miserable airport that Im sure alot of you have flown into.

A couple of weeks ago on a high speed from JLN to MEM, I was flying and went Dir RZC for the Gilmore 3 into MEM. I had a scanner in my vehicle for two years while I was accumulating my ratings and heard hundreds of such clearences given to airlines, and it was nostalgic when I got that clearence.


In a thread above someone mentioned flying over some highway and seeing all of the suckers piled up in gridlock and it reminded me of coming into DTW from a high speed and seeing the same thing.

I have a good friend who has flown the same airplane for the same company for atleast twelve years. I used to pick his brain all the time about flying professionally. I asked him if he thought he could get out of it. His reply was no because to this day every time an airplane flys over he looks up to see what it is. I started playing golf recently, and somewhere on the back nine a AA F100 flys over and I looked up. I guess the guy was right.

See Ya

 

[Capn Lucky]

Slightly different perspective...

I'm 39 and this is my second career. I'm a beech FO who is darn happy to have a seat. I feel like any day I get paid to go to the airport, its a good day. My mentor in the industry encouraged me to become a CFI for when I would become unemployed. It's inevetible in this business. Also, since I was taking a huge pay-cut, I knew that I should have an income outside of flying. My wife and I have a business on the side. You never know when you'll need it.

Be Smart and Fly Safe

Steve

 

[GuppyPuppy]

I've gotta get in on this one!

When I was in first grade I was given an assignment to draw a picture and write about what I wanted to be when I grew up. Like many on this board I knew I wanted to be an airline pilot. My mother saved that drawing/story had it mounted and framed and gave it to me when I was hired by UA. I wrote about how I'd fly the "Super DC-8" and that the airline would be Delta. Looking back, I was lucky enough to fly that plane and, as far as Delta goes, at least I flew Delta passengers at SkyWest.

I started flying in 1985 and paid for most of it myself (as well as my college tuition). I remember that almost 100% of my paycheck went to the local flying club. Even though I was poor, I was happy. Alright...I've got to share an excerpt from one of my favorite poems, The Joy of Being Poor...

...When, though my pockets lacked a coin, and though my coat was old,
The largess of the stars was mine, and all the sunset gold;
When time was only made for fools, and free as air was I,
And hard I hit and hard I lived beneath the open sky;
When all the roads were one to me, and each had its allure...
Ye Gods! these were the happy days, the days when I was poor

OK...enough of the sappy stuff.

Eight years ago I remember flying my fourth Glacier Bay tour (1.5 hours each) of the day. I flew the same route, pointed out the same features, the same mountain goats, used the same jokes...etc... I was rapidly becoming bored. I remember shaking my head back and forth as if I had just waken up from a coma and saying to myself, "I'm flying, I'm getting paid for it, and I'm in the most beautiful place on earth that most people won't ever see." Everytime I start to get that borish attitude, I think of that day over Glacier Bay. I get to do what I've wanted to do since I was a kid. Today I flew a Juneau Icefield tour and absolutely loved every minute of it.

I'm starting back at UA next month, unless I get laid off! I am so going to miss taking off from Juneau and not knowing for sure which route I'm going to take to get back home....over the ice?, over the water?, low?, high?. These past five plus months I've lived "The Joy of Being Poor". I've realized that material things don't mean nearly as much as the beauty of seeing a humpback whale bubble feed, a brown bear resting on a 3,300' ledge, a glacier calve, a moose running across the runway, sea lions playing or even morning dew on a leaf. These are the things I will think about and cherish for years to come.

I am truly fortunate to be one who can honestly say "It beats working for a living"!

Cheers!

GP

 

[Typhoon1244]

Okay, if we're all going to take turns telling misty stories...

My mother used to put me in my stroller and take me for walks (rolls?) around the block. If I saw a contrail overhead, or heard the hollow-tube rushing sound of a jetliner at altitude, I would smile, point at the sky and try to imitate the sound. (Of course, I don't remember this myself...)

When I was three, I finally asked my father what he did for a living. Just where was he going in his black suit with the gold stripes and all that luggage? He told me he was an airplane pilot. (He was a DC-9 F/O at E.A.L.) That sounded like a pretty good thing to me, so I decided I'd be one too, someday.

My little brother and I used to make cockpits out of Tinkertoys and Lego blocks. It was easier to make a convincing looking throttle quadrant--complete with reverser levers--out of Tinkertoys. Legos were better for fire handles, master caution lights, etc. To make our play more realistic, dad used to give us his old Jepps when he did his revisions.

We also drove our mom nuts making airports with those same Legos. They got pretty intricate, too. Runway lights, VASI, ALSF, REIL's, the beacon, jetways, localizer and glideslope antennas, VOR's, even a four-course range!...all were re-created as best we could with little plastic blocks.

(By the way, get involved when your children decide to play like this. It will mean a lot to them. I remember my dad sitting on the floor with us, scheming a way to make a sort-of working VASI with white and red Lego blocks stacked together!)

I used to drive with my father to MIA when he went to check his mail, turn in bids, etc. I remember the clerks, dispatchers, and crew schedulers, and especially the pilots treating me like I was supposed to be there...even at age six. Most especially--and this is a little weird--I remember the rich leather smell of the flight bag room. To this day, I associate that smell with professional flight operations.

When I was about ten, dad took me--and just me--on a Buffalo NY overnight. Not long after takeoff, Captain Mel Keene had the senior F/A sneak me into the cockpit, and I went almost all the way to Buffalo on the jumpseat. Getting to share a cockpit with my father and his captain on a night flight sealed my fate. I knew that somehow, I was going to be an airline pilot.

And I made it, too, with a lot of twists and turns along the way.

I love every airplane I've ever flown, but to me no aircraft will ever feel quite so...welcoming as those white-and-silver DC-9's with their two-tone blue hockey sticks.

What's wrong with us that a conglomeration of carefully machined aluminum, steel, and plastic, kerosene and rubber, silicon and glass can drive us to such distraction?

...or is it the people we meet along the way?

...or is it just the view from up there...?

 

[I.P. Freley]

Misty Mountain Hop...

Should I even get into my fuzzy memories of repeated trips on Piedmont 727's, visiting grandma and granddad down in Virginia, and multiple rides in the cockpit jumpseat as a wee tot?

"JOEY... Do you like movies about... Gladiators?" ROFL!!

Boy, their flight attendants sher were purty! I remember THAT much!!

I'll just leave the rest of it to myself.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Is it hereditary?

As a parent, one of the highest compliments a kid can offer is when they want to be like you. When I did my training in Louisville both my instructors were sons of UPS pilots. Both are good, honorable young men who have furthered their aviation careers.
My Dad never took the plunge to be a pilot but I can remember watching "Twelve O'Clock High" with him which sparked my interest in flying. I kick myself now for not getting involved directly with aviation. Oh well, at least I can smash bugs on the weekends.

 

[Huck]

My dad retired in '99 after 31 years red-tail NWA. Started on the panel of the 727, retired captain of the whale.

When I was about 10, he sneaked me into the cockpit of a 747 as we went to Hawaii. I was overwhelmed, and can vividly remember what it looked like - the pilots seemed like giants, and the lights, bells and whistles were frightening and exciting.

About that time my uncle (now a 76 captain at UAL) let me sit in the left seat of the brand-new BE-200 he was flying. Again, I can recall every detail of that big old panel (I later got 500 hours flying it!)

Now I try and pass this on to my son. He's just three, but last fall I managed to sneak him into the cockpit of an MD-11 for a few precious seconds. To paraphrase Garrison K, my dad and uncle just thought they were giving a little cockpit tour, but what they did was paint a permanent picture in my memory....

 

[Timebuilder]

Most of you have read my posts about my flying with my father, and how, for a few years, I felt I had to strike out in my own direction rather than take this obviously wonderful opportunity (in hindsight of course) to have all of my ratings before age 20, fly air taxi VFR out of the local airport, and get my ATP at 23.

I still kick myself a little for not taking that path, but I take some satisfaction in the fact that I eventually "found my way home."

 

[TurboS7]

911 has messed all this up. You can't sneak your kids in anywhere anymore. I did sneak my 10 year old into the sim the other night when no one was looking, this thread makes it worth the effort. Time builder, my oldest son 19 is totally into baseball, no interest in aviation except that is what will take him to a game once he makes the majors. Time will change that I am sure.