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Unrealistic Expectations

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Wow, can't believe I missed this the first time around. What a great thread.

I guess I'm one of the "old guys" in this thread, but I can certainly remember being one of the pups; in fact I still bring it up when I'm in my whining mode.

My story: I was supposed to be a captain at AA by now. That was the plan starting at 12 and enduring through about my 3rd year as an Eagle FO. Then I realized things don't always go as planned. I had it pretty easy actually, got my CFI in college, did less than 500 hours instructing, then moved on to banner and glider towing while trying to break into "real" flying with about 1200 hours. Managed to ride along a little with cargo guys and eek out a contract King Air job just weeks before being hired as a "Mighty Beech" 1900 FO in '92. Did that for 2.5 years w/ no upgrade in sight so I jumped to Eagle so I could go back to DFW and position myself for AA. Four years into that gig I finally got an upgrade and man was I lovin' it. Then USAirways called, who I wasn't even sure I wanted to fly for. Got greedy and decided I couldn't pass it up, what with the uncertainty of the flow-thru at Eagle (at least I got something right!). Enjoyed the Boeing. Then came Oct '01 when I left a couple of months early to fly a Navajo doing medevac. Thought I had to sacrifice everything to stay flying, so I sold the house, moved the wife and young kids and moved to Be-ver-ly (AZ actually). The living situation was no good for us, but you know - I really enjoyed the single pilot, quick call flying. That was actually new to me although a little out of sequence in my mind. Then by some miracle a start up in my hometown was hiring, and I'm now hanging on by a thread here flying right seat in my DoJet.

What's my point? No really, what's my point? Sorry. Through it all I've had the same feelings as a lot of you. I was the wet kid with big dreams and entitlements. At Eagle, I would stare out the window when the bitter Captains would complain that they could get a 45k job tomorrow not flying (good luck, you've lost touch - and why in the world would you want to?). Then I was the happy Captain briefly before hitting the Bigs. Now I'm starting over, but with a different perspective and added responsibilities. I get frustrated because I have very little turbine PIC, but over 10 years in the industry. I get frustrated because my savings are being depleted while I avoid a second job because a) it cuts into unemployment pay and interview availability and/or b) new aiplanes are a done deal and upgrade is mere weeks away. But the thing is: I just can't see doing anything else. I smile a little every time I take a second to reflect during climb out. I may be hitting the street again soon, and I continually try to envision a life outside the cockpit, but it just never seems like a genuine option to me.

Some of us have (alot) better timing than others. All of us will complain at times, but when it comes down to it, are you able to do what you love for a living? If so, take a deep breath and give thanks, 'cause not too many people can truly say that. Right seat, left seat, even sideways I suppose. You're living a dream.


Blue skies to all. Or grey if you need the instrument time.
 
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Timing?

I probably have the worst timing of all.

I waited until my ship left the harbor, and got halfway across the ocean and then decided to swim after it to catch up!

It's great to have a flying job, though. I'll never run out of soap or shampoo!! :D
 
Right now the ship is adrift on the sea and coming your way. About the time the steam engines get repaired(parts are hard to find) you'll be caught up to it and able to get onboard.
 
Timing

Timebuilder said:
I probably have the worst timing of all.
But not as bad as mine.

I have little doubt that I would have landed that right seat in the mighty Beech 1900 had I landed my first job a year sooner. To give an idea of those times to those of you who weren't around, during 1987-'89 there was hiring similar to that of 1995-'00. Then it ground to a halt and did not really pick up until 1995. In other words, about 3½-4 years of bad times.

Of course, my father said when I decided to go into flying that I should have started ten years earlier. Why didn't he speak up when I was still ripping and reading wire news copy from the AP and UPI machines and getting the occasional new interview by phone (I got better radio news jobs after that.)?

Oh, well . . . . .
 
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FurloughedAgain:

Cool post!! hope to fly with you some day. It's good to see someone who "gets it".
 
Rip and Read!!!!

If I had come to my senses around the time that I FIRST started reading news on the radio, I might have missed out on the purple fingers from changing the ribbon in the wire machine and I'd be a high time captain at Delta by now! :eek:
 
Great thread to read!

Bobbysam and Timebuilder, I love reading your guys posts but I always hate when you guys bring up your regrets about not starting sooner. The important thing is not that you started flying late but that you started flying at all! It seems both of you had good jobs that you enjoyed doing BEFORE you went into aviation. I find myself in this same situation. I really do enjoy my job in nuclear power. But I also love flying. And I know I would regret it if I didn’t give the flying career a shot. And even if the flying career doesnt pan out I will consider myself blessed that I will be one of those people that can boast about having two (or more) careers when I’m 80.

My dad always told me life is made up of experiences. And I think that by having more than just one career a person really gathers lots of experiences (both good and bad)!

Good luck to both of you.
 
Ryan said:
Bobbysam and Timebuilder, I love reading your guys posts but I always hate when you guys bring up your regrets about not starting sooner. The important thing is not that you started flying late but that you started flying at all!
You're right. At least I did start flying and had the courage to take a chance on the career.

I always write that I wish I had started sooner for the benefit of the relatively younger folks who are on the fence about trying the career. He who hesitates is lost. Make the decision, but don't approach it half-heartedly. If flying doesn't work out, at least you'll be young enough to start another career.
 
Bingo.

Pink Floyd: "..no one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun...."

So, young people. Ready, set,.......
 
Guilty as charged.
I don't have the stories of riding my bike everyday to the grass airport to watch the line guys pump gas into a C-152 and dream of one day having their job. But now that I'm here, I do enjoy it very much, and it takes good threads like this to keep my perspective in check from the fantasies spouted by Air Inc, Riddle, ATP, and any other operation that pads their services with talk of "future pilot shortages."

I agree that this job beats working for a living. As aewannabe said, I can't believe someone is paying me to fly this airplane around and all I have to do is occaisionally take some checks with me. I hope that these cyclical downtimes weed out the grouchy bridge FO's that feel they should have been at American by now. I'm looking forward to the cylical upswing and hope I'm near the right place at the right time.
 
VampyreGTX said:
Wow, I can't believe I sat here and read this whole thread. Glad you guys resurected it!
Me too. I'm normally just a lurker but had to compliment everyone on this thread. :)
 
Yep..it's me

JBcrjca said:
I also read this whole thread for the 1st time today. Thanks to FurloughedAgain for bringing it back to the top. The original post was a beauty...FA hit the nail squarely on the head. I think many of us have been thinking the same thing, but we just don't type as eloquently as he does. It brought back a lot of memories, and I'm not even sure I qualify as an official 'old fart' yet. Some of the other guys posted some really good stories. IPFreleys' story about the RJ capt/fo was one of the best. I also remember spinning the props on the Metro, just wish I could have gotten the SA-227 type rating!

Ah yes, our beloved Darlene M. She's absolutely a pleasure to work with, and she has lots of great stories from 'back in the day' with Eastern. The cool thing about her is that she almost encourages sexual harrassment! And she still remembers every passenger on every flight by name. I'll never figure out how she does that.



JB,


You sneaky SOB................you found me! I just wish Darlene would transfer to FAT! haha.

AF:D
 
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Fly, your remembrances stirred some early memories for me, too.

As a child, I would lay in the grass of my backyard on a Saturday morning while dozens of WWII and Korean war aircraft flew overhead on weekend training missions. In 1956, they were less than 15 years old! My dad pointed out the cargo planes called "flying box cars". I can still hear the sound as it filled the whole sky, drowning out the transistor radios playing Chuck Berry and Elvis.

Once in a while, one of the new jets passed overhead, and sonic booms were common until they were outlawed by dairy farmers and those with fine china. Plates would fall from wall niches, and cows were scared to death. It was fun while it lasted.

Most of the planes came from Willow Grove NAS, just 35 miles away. What a time to be alive.
 
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This thread is a wonder to read. 6 months ago I wasn't sure if I was ever going to see my dream come to fruition. 22 years old, wife, baby, 10.00 an hour job, and didn't think it would ever happen.

But because God is great, I am now about to be a Commerical licensed pilot, living off of loan money, without a job. I took the plunge and I was happy, until the bill collectors started calling talking about taking me to court. Kinda feels like the walls are starting to crumble around me, but after reading this thread, I am refreshed. I no longer doubt that I made the right choice. I don't know where this road is leading me and my family, but I know it will be a great place when I get there, and I have God to thank for that.

Tomorrow will be a great day. Why? Because I get to fly.
 
olden times...

way way back in the day. ah i remember it well..

1992 (chuckle)

i just started college...and flight school was a big part of the cirriculum. The instructors there had 2000 hours and 300 multi, just dying to hear that call from trans states or eagle or great lakes. Fustrated to hell that they have a logbook full of 1700 hours of dual given. countless first solo's and countless checkrides signed off. I had no idea it really was that bad. My parents had nothing to do with flying. We didn't know anyone who flys for a living. We were in the dark about this secret society of flying. Believe me general populace is in the dark about the scope of the industry. I had no idea and to me ignorance was bliss. I was gonna learn to fly.

Sudden change to the fast lane. Flight schools touted retirement of everyone in the majors, so that meant you need to spend your money cause a huge need for pilots exists right now! Everyone signed up. Everyone spent their money wether or not they had their own or someone elses. Instructors were getting hired by regionals with 1000 hours and a multi rating. no hours. not a sausage. They went off happy knowing that things were happening fast and they would be captain in a 747 at 25. I even knew their dis-illusion. I shook my head. I saw what it was like just briefly before the floodgates opened onto the market. Some of the worst quality pilots came out then. I met a few just recently that said "yeah i taught for 300 hours, i couldn't do that anymore. I got so tired of it" Heh, dont even try talking till you did it for at least a thousand. come to think of it just dont talk. The dot com explosion was too good to be true. this looked just like it. please learn from it.

So here they are. The self-professed vunderkind's of pilots. Each one telling their little brothers and sisters and freinds back home how they're gonna be in that big jet real soon and making big money. "I cant wait to make 100k a year at 30" Their friends buy it and go for it too. Self perpetuating Lemming madness. C'mon men! legs go jump into it and only then really know what were getting into. A few actually make it. Lucky few. I hope they make it past the furloughs.

Through my own journey I've watched, listened. I even thought that i could make it in there fast. But I knew that things were happening too fast. Then some a$$hole flys into a building. Right then I knew I would be way over 30 before I made it into the majors. But I'm not a masochist. Why subject myself to bickering and squabling over unfathomable raises and contracts and unions and TA's? I don't know for sure. I could camp out at a regional for years before finding a big jet. It hit me. Why do I want to fly a big jet? Does that make my life better? No. I still have the same crap going on in life and at home. I just need to find out the two questions. "How much do i get paid" and "how much time off do i get and when is that?"

It takes a while but you will find out soon enough. I'm lucky at 29 to discover something. Theres two factors. 1.) Quality of work. 2.) Quality of life outside of work. They're both good? then STAY! Can you have a dog with all this? Can you save 20% into an IRA and still afford to get a pizza after paying your bills? That's my qualifier. Find a job you're happy at. Enjoy where you are. Quit moving so fast cause you will hit that wall youre not seeing ahead of you. Look back and see if you made time for yourself to enjoy what you were doing and where.

The young pilots that can't see this. Well, how fortunate they are to be greedy for airline money. How fortunate they are to be 27 and vomit complaints about only making $35000 a year in this small plane. Spoiled Brats. Do you think your parents upgraded into the house they have now at 30? Heck no they saved money. upgraded slowly through time. That house now is from 20+ years of work. Just cause youre a pilot dosent mean youre entitled to alot of money right now. You now have to wait and live and work for what you want.

Immediate gratification is so immersed its expected. Tough. Live with it. Adapt or get sneers and rude awakenings. I can make $40k a year and be happy or $100k a year and be miserable. In the long run wich one do you think you will pick? I can get a nice pizza on $40k and nice beer too. just like I can at 100k. Difference? I'll be able to stomach the pizza at 65 instead of having ulcers form that 100k a year job.

enjoy your journey. the destination just might suck cock.
 
C'mon, tell us what you REALLY think! :D

I would have said it differently, but I agree.

It's the journey.
 
AirPirateRob

AirPirateRob,

Outstanding post. Of course you said everything that we ALL wanted to say but didnt -- words like those dont translate very well from the right seat to the left. ;)

I guess they shouldnt. If I were a Captain I certainly wouldnt want a copilot stepping on my dreams and aspirations.

You know what I feel lately though? Jealousy. A lot of it.

Hey i'll be the first to admit it. I'm scared to death.

After 7 airlines, 9 initials, 3 furloughs, and a bankruptcy I look around the industry and see that things just arent getting any better. ACA just announced another 100 furloughs and you know what scares me the most?

If my current employer decides to stop taking aircraft deliveries and start furloughing i'm going to be back on the street again and THIS time, there are very few companies who will be willing to hire a rapidly aging professional copilot.

So yeah I'm jealous of the 24, 25, 26 year-old Captains in the left seat. Not because they're captains or because they have another 35 years left in their careers from which to recover from this downturn but because they has at least SOME semblance of stability!!!

I'd give anything to have some comfort that my job will remain and that I can count on the paycheck cashing.

Now that i'm back on the "regional" side of the "regional/major" civil-war i'm desperately afraid that the mainline carrier who owns my company will decide that it is in ALPA's best interest to start a jets-for-jobs fiasco here!

Maybe my own expectations are unreasonable.

I expect that my company will be managed thoughtfully and will provide a product that is valuable and economical to our mainline partner.

I expect that the so-called "union" to whome I have paid dues for the better part of 10 years now will actually function in MY best interests as well as in the best interests of the mainline pilots.

I expect that my fellow pilots will negotiate fairly to provide job security to EVERY pilot on the seniority list from the most junior through the most senior, rather than protecting pay, benefits, and retirement for only the most senior on the list.

Sorry for the "glass-half-empty" post today but I cant seem to get away from the bad news.

  1. US Airways will lay off another 52 pilots in June.
  2. American will declare bankruptcy and will lay off another 2500 pilots.
  3. ACA will lay off another 100 pilots on top of the 97 who have already been notified.
  4. National Airlines will now liquidate under chapter 7 of the bankruptcy code.
  5. Kit Darby is still a Captain at United.
    [/list=1]

    yeah... i'm in a lousy mood today.
 
I'm lucky...

But not for the reason you think. I have had a charmed career. I'm ex-TWA, a Capt. about to get displaced and furloughed later this year.

Why am I lucky? Because every time I start to feel sorry for myself, I run into someone else who has a whole lot sh***ier deal than I do. Sure, I thought once I upgraded, everything would be sweetness and light. I certainly thought that after AA bought TWA and ended my annual worries about having a job. Just when you thought it was safe...

I used to be scared to death that I would be 55 years old and forced to fly some dirtbag DC8 in the middle of the night. Now, I'm scared that I'll be 55 and NOT flying anything!

A couple of weeks ago, after listening to the ramp office chatter about what we were going to do when we got furloughed, I found that many of my friends are planning on leaving aviation. I thought about it a long time and decided that, like most of my fellow "aviation geeks" on this board, flying isn't what I do, it's what I am. I am an airplane driver. I don't aspire to be a CEO or airline manager(not that there's anything wrong with that;) ) and I don't need to live in the biggest house in town. I just want to fly airplanes.

FurloughedAgain is right--this won't last forever and, being 45, I will probably see another one of these before I retire. Strap in and hang on.

Bring on that chicken!:D TC
 

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