United

[jbDC9]

That is the most stupid and uninformed statement I've seen to date on this forum, and that is saying a lot. You are now returning a "favor?" You have problems.

Actually skykid, I'd say AA717 is right on the money. "I just said the UAL (and AA, DAL and USAir) pilots stood on the sidelines cheering as it happened. Did ALL of those airlines' pilots hope for and cheer on the demise? No. But the vast majority did at least exhibit benign indifference for the plight of their fellow pilots." How is that stupid and uninformed? You don't think that when Braniff, Eastern, Pan Am and TWA were on their downhill slides that the pilots at AA, UA, DL, etc. weren't salivating over the thoughts of how their individual airlines and careers could benefit by picking up the pieces (slots, routes, aircraft, etc.) of the dying airlines? It's pretty much a fact of life, pilots will eat their young and step over the corpse of a dead airline to improve their own lot in life.

 

[Airbusnut1]

I would like to ask both AA717, and jbDC9, just how did the rest of the pilot group stood by, and did nothing while the careers of these airlines went "on the downhill slide" Do you even remember how many Braniff pilots that were on the street when their company went under, were hired by at the time, Piedmont, USAir ,Northwest, etc. They were given preference,to the rest of the pilots who were also trying to get a job.
It amazes me when everyone forgets what happened in the past, and starts to spout off nothing but ill informed retoric about how the rest of the industry was standing by "salïvaitng" over how much better their lives were going to be at someone's elses expense.
Get a grip boy's. And stop hating the rest of the industry for your percieved ills.
We all get a good screwing now and then, hopefully its from our wives/girlfriends. Unfortunatly for the last few years the whole profession worldwide took a hit.

"It's pretty much a fact of life, pilots will eat their young and step over the corpse of a dead airline to improve their own lot in life."

Thats a sad quote, get some help dude.

 

[skykid]

You don't think that when Braniff, Eastern, Pan Am and TWA were on their downhill slides that the pilots at AA, UA, DL, etc. weren't salivating over the thoughts of how their individual airlines and careers could benefit by picking up the pieces (slots, routes, aircraft, etc.) of the dying airlines?

No I don't. I believe the vast majority of pilots at your company and mine are decent people who wouldn't wish ill on anybody. I have flown with enough ex-Eastern and Pan Am guys and had enough conversations with pilots to have faith in this opinion. You can look out for your own interests without being a jerk. I have sat next to very, very few pilots who haven't had anything but sympathy at others misfortunes.

There is no such thing as an unhealthy B fund. If terminated you still get the money deposited into your portfolio. Unlike the A-fund when a deposit is made the money is yours and cannot be touched by the company.

I know how a B fund works - I've got one. What I said was the days of a healthy A AND B fund being the retirement package for an airline pilot are gone. In other words a defined benefits AND a defined contribution plan are no more.

What's even more amazing is now that he can't do it, he doesn't have a plan B.

G4G5, would you post your source that details how the PBGC hasn't in fact already assumed control of the United pensions? I'm not talking about the House bill that deals with budget money from the next fiscal year.

What's amazing to me is the fact that Tilton actually thought that he could just dump almost $7 BILLION of under funded ension debt on the US tax payer and get away with it.

G4G5, the money the PBGC has, where did it come from?

The PBGC would have covered around $6.6 billion of the obligations, now they can make up the difference with UAL assets.

When does that happen?

 

[G4G5]

http://news.morningstar.com/news/DJ/M06/D24/200506241734DOWJONESDJONLINE000982.html

Correct me if I am wrong but if UAL dumps it's pensions on the PBGC as planned then the PBGC has no rights to any further UAL monies.
If UAL goes CH 7 and then dumps their pensions on the PBGC, the PBGC (US tax payer) now moves above the banks to the top of the list of creditors who get repayed from the sale of UAL assets.
this is why congress and the senate have/will pass bill that will be turned into law by Oct/06 to stop companies from doing this.

 

[skykid]

The measure past by the House is a symbolic gesture with no teeth. The Wall Street Journal opines that neither the Senate or executive branch have any interest in it, we'll see. One could argue that certain administrative expenses of the PBGC are funded with federal money, however the money the PBGC has ALREADY allocated for United, and put on its books as such last year, has nothing to do with next years federal budget.

United grossed over 1.5 billion in May 2005. A surviving United might generate the tax revenue to pay for its pensions in 2 years, maybe 6 months less if you really get into the details.
What I believe will happen sooner rather than later in this country is a widespread collapse of defined pensions through several different industries to include the massive automotive industry pensions. At that point in the future a federal bailout of the PBGC may come to pass. I would argue the survival of these companies would do more to pay for the bailout than liquidation - see paragraph above.

 

[100LL... Again!]

I've heard a lot of talk about a national union, (bar association...whatever). I may be wrong, but I think that is what the ship captains (as in ocean vessels) did to protect their jobs. The only thing they got for it, now most ships are registered in foreign countrys to avoid them. And our laws may not allow this for airplanes now, but if push came to shove, powerfull lobbyists could get that changed.

I respectfully disagree. I think that it was the demands of union crews (who are much further down on the skill/knowledge scale than captains), who drove the costs too high.

I think the industry would have been able to support high CA salaries, but not extra-high unskilled CREW salaries.

Example: An airline MIGHT be able to aford good pilot salaries, but why is the bag-thrower making $20/hr? THAT job can be replace by non-union workers.

Anyone can learn to throw bags in a week.

 

[100LL... Again!]

So whose fault is all this?

Answer - everyone's fault.

The a-holes for being a-holes. The indifferent for being indifferent.
Those who took silent glee in the demise of others because they (in their insecurity) wanted to feel better about themselves.

ALPA's total failure to create real unity, coupled with the selfishness of the individual pilot groups has brought this on ourselves.

In truth, even though it does not seem that the profession deserves it, we really do.

The arrogance of mainline pilots who have no problem with "prop trash" making peanuts, the regional guys who thrill at the transfer of mainline jobs to the codeshare partners, scabs (the real kind).

Ultimately, it is the responsibility of those 'at the top" to be leaders. Impoverished regional pilots had no clout with anyone. Yes, we could have refused to take regional jets, but some other regional would have taken them anyway.

ALPA and the mainline unions had their chance to create real unity in the profession. They had the funds and the political clout.

Instead of using their negotiating capital to ensure that the profession would have been TRULY protected, they gambled.

They gambled that they could put their competitors under, or they gambled that things would always stay at status quo, they gambled on scope language (a paper promise).

Ultimately, those in a position to lead did not lead.

So, here we are now.

 

[AA717driver]

It amazes me when everyone forgets what happened in the past, and starts to spout off nothing but ill informed retoric about how the rest of the industry was standing by "salïvaitng" over how much better their lives were going to be at someone's elses expense.
Get a grip boy's. And stop hating the rest of the industry for your percieved ills.
We all get a good screwing now and then, hopefully its from our wives/girlfriends. Unfortunatly for the last few years the whole profession worldwide took a hit.

"It's pretty much a fact of life, pilots will eat their young and step over the corpse of a dead airline to improve their own lot in life."

Thats a sad quote, get some help dude.

Airbusnut I saw this for myself. You are the one who has no clue. For 15 years, those of us at the "bottom feeders" endured snide comments every time we rode an OAL jumpseat (except for SWA). That IS a fact. My friend in the COS C-130 unit actually had squadron mates from UAL who said to his face "why don't you guys do the right thing and go out of business". That IS a fact. My ex-TWA friend who left for UAL in '92 told me of the comments he endured from UAL lifers while he and the former PAA F/E's sat back and just smiled, knowing this day might come and no one was immune.

You don't remember those things because it didn't affect you. I'll bet you remember the comments some have made about UAL going out of business for the "good of the industry" for a LONG time.

Taking a screwing means getting extended on a trip or having your long LAS layover turned into a 10 hour EWR layover. Getting your career destroyed and your pension stolen is a little harder to brush off.

The bottom line is that these types of attitudes have existed for a very long time and they exist today so you'd just better get used to it. We both know where the word "sympathy" resides in the dictionary.TC

 

[Airbusnut1]

AA717 I say again you are a fool.
And no I do not fly for UAL

 

[G4G5]

SKYkid

I don't really see that happening. IMHO what you will see is grandfathering. At many large fortune 100 companies like IBM and Time Warner, they have grandfathered the employees on the property with the traditional retirement programs. Then any new employees hired after X date are enrolled in the new 401k, non defined benifit plans. Large union labor controlled companies like GM can't just tell the UAW that they are no longer going to fund their retirements, "here's your new plan". But they can offer an alternative that will effect only future employees. Could UAL have dropped their pensions on the PBGC back in 2000?

What congress and the senate are trying to do is having to avoid a federal bail out of the PBGC. You may feel that the bill passed by congress has no teeth, that's your opinion. From the take of the Morningstar author I get the feeling it has teeth, he even go so far as to mention the 10/2005 date when the bill would become law. We will have to wait and see. MY guess is that the congress and the senate will pass the bill. What are the options? Every company in the US would/could transfer their pension liabilities to the PBGC? I don't think so. If they don't pass the law, how long do you think it would take before NWA, DAL, AA, GM, Ford, yada yada dumped their plans too?

Your take on the revenue generated by UAL is not valid becasue, their is a finite number of passengers and if UAL is not there, those pax and their tax revenue will just shift to a different carrier. If GM dies tomorrow people will not stop driving or buying cars. IF UAL goes away tomorrow people will not stop flying. The jobs transfer to a different company (toyota in kentucky, BMW in GSP, Hundai in AL). The only thing that changes is the name on the top of the paycheck. The tax revenue will just come from a different carrier/company. In fact one could argue that letting the financialy viable companies prosper without the burden of the industry having to support the UAL and USAir's of the world would be in everyones best interest. Not the other way around