United and CAL SLI for furloughed pilots

[skywdriver]

Being a CAL furloughed guy, I am really curious to get the opinions of some furloughed United guys on what they think a fair integration would be for the furloughed pilots from both sides. This of course assumes a deal is made through the rumored talks that are taking place right now.

It is almost certain that all CAL furloughed pilots will be back on property by the time the operations actually combine (it took Delta almost 2 years from announcing the merger to get the combined operating certificate and I don't even know if they are flying with combined crews yet). In fact, with the airplanes coming this year and next combined with more retirements, CAL will probably have to hire an addition 150-200 guys. I know this is all based on the economy continuing its recovery, but it appears to be on track for a slow but steady recovery.

So, I would make the argument that putting the furloughs (as of the date a deal is announced) on the master list by date of hire would be absolutely ridiculous. There is a good chance I will be back on property as the SLI is being discussed, so to say that career expectations mean nothing to a furlough who has already returned as an active pilot is totally dumb. In my opinion, the most fair thing to do would be to have a clause in the integration that says anyone who goes back as an active pilot before the certificates are combined will be placed at the bottom of the list of active pilots by date of hire, then anyone still on furlough will be placed below all active pilots by date of hire.

Any opinions?

 

[FDJ2]

Any opinions?

Category/Status ratio.

The number of pilots on furlough from one list, on the date of constructive notice, would most likely be integrated with the number ofr furloughed pilots on the other.

There may be some tweaking of the lists, but it would most likely be predominantly a ratioed list based on the job brought to the merger. Wide bodied captains with wide bodied captains, narrow bodied captains with narrow bodied captains all the way down to furloughed pilots with furloughed pilots.

 

[bluefin]

DOH= 2000 for me! In all honesty, I and many other furloughed UAL guys will get the royal shaft. I have already discussed the issue with ALPA reps and we are $%^&ed. Time on property plus career expectations are part of the equation. Currently I have 10+ seniority number, but only 3 yrs on property. Being furloughed I have 0 career expectation at this time. If Cal has less than 200 on furlough, you guys are golden.

 

[bluefin]

But don't think about being recalled. You will be on indefinite furlough, believe me the 70 seaters are gonna come with this merger. Your chance of recall will be gone.

 

[skywdriver]

But don't think about being recalled. You will be on indefinite furlough, believe me the 70 seaters are gonna come with this merger. Your chance of recall will be gone.

we have to negotiate a combined contract. our contract doesn't allow more than 50 seat jets as you probably know, so what a great opportunity for UAL guys to get back some of the flying that you lost and keep it at 50, or put 70+ seat payrates in the new contract and have them flown under mainline. i know the company could buy out some of the top of the CAL list and convince them to give up scope limits on seats, but many of the newer hires have seen the results of those mistakes and are willing to fight for our current scope. i would hope that many of your fellow United pilots are pissed off enough about giving scope in bankruptcy that they would be willing to put up a fight against it as well.

 

[bluefin]

We are more than pissed off! and ready to fight, more so than our union.

 

[Furloughed80]

A CAL/UAL merger would provide us with opportunity to strengthen scope and obtain an industry leading contract; as long as we all work together.

 

[skywdriver]

A CAL/UAL merger would provide us with opportunity to strengthen scope and obtain an industry leading contract; as long as we all work together.

if every single pilot on both lists had that mentality, we could merge, get everyone back on property, and maybe even start hiring. there is no reason we couldn't fly 70 seat jets under a combined United/CAL.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

Stop with the integration banter....nobody knows what will be worked out yet...Speculation pisses everyone off. I would like to see buyouts on both sides and have everyone recalled on both sides. I'm thinking this time the deal will be done like it or not.

 

[catIIIc]

Stop with the integration banter....nobody knows what will be worked out yet...Speculation pisses everyone off. I would like to see buyouts on both sides and have everyone recalled on both sides. I'm thinking this time the deal will be done like it or not.

Well said If this thing gets done let our respective merger committees handle the SLI and Scream at our Negotiating Committee on what we want in our new combined contract. Let the process work.

 

[General Lee]

Whatever you do, get the joint contract done first. Then, CAL guys will ask for relative seniority, and UAL guys will go for DOH, and it will go to arbitration. Sound familiar? Good luck to all involved.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[stillflyn]

Being a CAL furloughed guy, I am really curious to get the opinions of some furloughed United guys on what they think a fair integration would be for the furloughed pilots from both sides. This of course assumes a deal is made through the rumored talks that are taking place right now.

It is almost certain that all CAL furloughed pilots will be back on property by the time the operations actually combine (it took Delta almost 2 years from announcing the merger to get the combined operating certificate and I don't even know if they are flying with combined crews yet). In fact, with the airplanes coming this year and next combined with more retirements, CAL will probably have to hire an addition 150-200 guys. I know this is all based on the economy continuing its recovery, but it appears to be on track for a slow but steady recovery.

So, I would make the argument that putting the furloughs (as of the date a deal is announced) on the master list by date of hire would be absolutely ridiculous. There is a good chance I will be back on property as the SLI is being discussed, so to say that career expectations mean nothing to a furlough who has already returned as an active pilot is totally dumb. In my opinion, the most fair thing to do would be to have a clause in the integration that says anyone who goes back as an active pilot before the certificates are combined will be placed at the bottom of the list of active pilots by date of hire, then anyone still on furlough will be placed below all active pilots by date of hire.

Any opinions?

If there is one thing that I've learned in this industry its better to have a great job with ok seniority than a $hitty job with great seniority. CAL & UAL getting together with the two pilot groups working together could help reshape an ok job back into a great carrier!

That being said, the furlough issue won't be an easy one. I was involuntarily furloughed in 2003 with a 99 hire date. I was back in 2006 for two more years and then took a voluntary furlough along with a bunch of other guys. This time the difference is, I still have guys on property actively flying who are junior to me. It's not just me in this situation. We have 747-400, 777, 767 captains who took the voluntary furlough.

There have been a few times in history where guys on the same list who swapped seniority but it has always been overturned through a court order. This happened in 1985 at UAL when D. Farris fired the 570 pilots who didn't show up during the strike that were on probation. The court ordered him to bring them back. When he did he put them at the bottom of the list below about 600 pilots he had hired since then. It didn't last, they had their day in court and got their rightful seniority back.

My guess is the guys that took a voluntary furlough with guys on the property below them that are actively flying will be treated as if on a leave of absence. The guys that are involuntarily furloughed..... who knows. I still think that there will be a lot of weight given to longevity. (time served)

When it's all said and done the most junior guy should have a pretty good job that makes it worth being there for.

Just my opinion, I'll probably end up being wrong..........

 

[75 Driver]

The consolidation of flying and aircraft types would yield a smaller than current workforce. The current projection is that it would entail an additional 1000 pilots on the street.

The only numbers that make sense to make the merger happen is the synergies created by reducing cost to have the same market presence. When Cal get's a real look at how poorly run we at Untidy are, they will either turn and run or slash every aspect of our sillyness.

TK will be history within months, SAM will also have some serious reductions due to it's inherent inefficiencies. These two parts of Untidy are so poorly run on a cost benefit basis that they will not survive either a CAL or a USAir merger in their current configuration.

 

[mamba20]

75 Driver,

Whos projections are those? Does that account for age 65 catching up? Any early outs offered? Planned growth at CAL (not sure if UAL has any) Seems to me like we are getting ahead of ourselves here.

 

[RocketRob]

also how about a "no furlough clause" as a part of the joint contract. Didn't Delta negotiate one of these with there merger?

I know what TK is but what is SAM?

 

[whatitdoing?]

Guys, let's just merge and be fair to everyone. If we don't get on the same page and enjoy flying with each other we'll end up burning the place down. Drinks on me....

 

[Jetjockey]

I don't buy that a combined list would yield 1,000 extra furloughs. I saw once if CAL had UAL work rules, they would need an extra 800 plus pilots. Not even considering over 60 guys who would bail before a merger was consummated.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

The consolidation of flying and aircraft types would yield a smaller than current workforce. The current projection is that it would entail an additional 1000 pilots on the street.

The only numbers that make sense to make the merger happen is the synergies created by reducing cost to have the same market presence. When Cal get's a real look at how poorly run we at Untidy are, they will either turn and run or slash every aspect of our sillyness.

TK will be history within months, SAM will also have some serious reductions due to it's inherent inefficiencies. These two parts of Untidy are so poorly run on a cost benefit basis that they will not survive either a CAL or a USAir merger in their current configuration.

The current projection??? Is this before or after uncle titty parked 100 jets. Do you really think that w/ a merger that labor will be "ok" with more furloughs? What about buyouts for the 747 cpts like yourself. Guys with your seniority last time I talked to one had no idea UAL had guys on the street. Get your head out of the clouds.

 

[ATRCA]

Guys, let's just merge and be fair to everyone. If we don't get on the same page and enjoy flying with each other we'll end up burning the place down. Drinks on me....

I've got a box of matches! Where do I start??

 

[pilotgolfer]

also how about a "no furlough clause" as a part of the joint contract. Didn't Delta negotiate one of these with there merger?

I know what TK is but what is SAM?

SAM is the Maintenance Operation

 

[BigRed1]

SAM is the Maintenance Operation

Yes, Like PilotGolfer said...

United's Mx operation was for the longest time, based in San Fransico. It still largely is, except now, the actual guys we talk to via ACARS and radio are in Chicago after a recent operations consolidation.

Anyway, we still call our Maintenance guys "SAM" or "SAM.C" Stands for San Fransisco Aircraft Maintence. Control.

Nifty, I know.

As for all this integration and merger talk...My general feeling on the concensus is, just like most, we would prefer to stay independant as well. Buy some 100 seat small jets and fly them. Get the A350s and 787s and with some additional exercised options and live happily ever after.

Alas, that does not seem to be the vision of our awesome and caring leader. Our pilot group in general wants NOTHING to do with US Airways. We do not see much added benefits regarding their routes and hubs, and having a work force who's culture that is even more toxic than United's makes us ill just thinking about it. Although, our toxicity stems from Management/Pilot relations. We don't really fight amongst ourselves as in the East vs West war. The original US Airways pilots really rubbed the UAL pilots the wrong way during the initial merger attempt. Go figure, I know.

Continental is interesting. They would add some better depth to United's South flying and and East coast flying. They seem better managed, and the two ALPA unions have apparently been developing a battle plan for merging for quite some time. Like our MEC Chairmwoman has said, we all feel like CAL is a better fit, and the pilot groups are more prepared to work with eachother further.

For all those CAL guys worried about the evil UAL pilots wanting DOH or other bullsh*t integration requests, don't worry. No one is saying that. Relax already. Relative seniority with some fences for an inbalance of widebody aircraft is fair. As for the furlough integration, I am clueless on how to resolve that.

BigRed1

 

[Paul R. Smith]

I propose that instead of posting another remark regarding a merger you go grab a shot of booze or down a beer instead. I got a head start on ya.

 

[fatboyplt]

Well said BigRed1..

 

[Fly2AK]

As a UAL furloughed guy my only hope is that all the furloughed pilots of CAL/UAL are brought back on property. I believe that the two groups are more willing to work together to develop a fair integration than that of the civil war that is taking place between the east vs west groups of US Airways. I think it is in the best interest of all our pilots to work together and try to make the best out of whats left of our careers. I also think this is an excellent time to strengthen scope and recapture flying for the mainline pilots and return scope to 50 seat jets and reduce the amount of regional flying on our property. My concern as a furloughed guy is being off porperty if a merger does take place before I get a chance to be recalled.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

As a UAL furloughed guy my only hope is that all the furloughed pilots of CAL/UAL are brought back on property. I believe that the two groups are more willing to work together to develop a fair integration than that of the civil war that is taking place between the east vs west groups of US Airways. I think it is in the best interest of all our pilots to work together and try to make the best out of whats left of our careers. I also think this is an excellent time to strengthen scope and recapture flying for the mainline pilots and return scope to 50 seat jets and reduce the amount of regional flying on our property. My concern as a furloughed guy is being off porperty if a merger does take place before I get a chance to be recalled.

The senior guys at UAL and CAL are going to look out for themselves... since the furloughed and MIL LOA guys are out of sight...... out of mind they are not going to be considered.....


Even a pay to go away option is tough for the senior guys.....

However, the senior guys at CAL and UAL sold off scope... they should be responsible for buying it back with their pay rates and working conditions... (vacation, sick time, etc...). They have already proven during the BK era that they are willing sell off the A plan (UAL) and other senior perks and gravey.....

 

[SWA/FO]

What ever happens - GET RID OF TILTON!!!!!!!

 

[eaglesview]

The senior guys at UAL and CAL are going to look out for themselves... since the furloughed and MIL LOA guys are out of sight...... out of mind they are not going to be considered.....


Even a pay to go away option is tough for the senior guys.....

However, the senior guys at CAL and UAL sold off scope... they should be responsible for buying it back with their pay rates and working conditions... (vacation, sick time, etc...). They have already proven during the BK era that they are willing sell off the A plan (UAL) and other senior perks and gravey.....

You have absolutley know idea what you are talking about. Tell me exactly what we "sold off the A plan" for. What did we buy with that?? And why in the world would a senior guy want to do that. reality check. We were the first carrier to go down that rd concerning BK and the subsequent attack of the A plan. ALPA which was useless in it's national level advisers for us learned from the experience as did the other MEC's that went through it behind us. We showed them exactly what not to do.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You have absolutley know idea what you are talking about. Tell me exactly what we "sold off the A plan" for. What did we buy with that?? And why in the world would a senior guy want to do that. reality check. We were the first carrier to go down that rd concerning BK and the subsequent attack of the A plan. ALPA which was useless in it's national level advisers for us learned from the experience as did the other MEC's that went through it behind us. We showed them exactly what not to do.

The senior guys leveraged their seniority to protect it by scoping out the regional flying... selling out the junior guys on their list... the senior pilots are responsible... they need to get it back and pay for it with their seniority...... time to man up for once....

 

[Marko Ramius]

You have absolutley know idea what you are talking about. Tell me exactly what we "sold off the A plan" for. What did we buy with that?? And why in the world would a senior guy want to do that. reality check. We were the first carrier to go down that rd concerning BK and the subsequent attack of the A plan. ALPA which was useless in it's national level advisers for us learned from the experience as did the other MEC's that went through it behind us. We showed them exactly what not to do.

The first carrier to go down the road of BK and A plan attack/loss? RUF kidding me? Did UA go bankrupt in 2002 or 1982? You are correct that the A fund wasn't really sold for anything, although I think the MEC/NC did go pretty soft in the end after all they gave up to protect the A fund, and the mounting evidence that it may not have been as underfunded as claimed. I see you didn't mention scope, presumably because you know Rez is correct on that. I'll add in the no-furlough off probation and min-pilot numbers. Dubo rolled on them first in Nov 2001, and Whiteford was all to eager to follow suit in ERP I and beyond to save the A fund that anyone with half a brain could see was part of the end game once he started down the concession road. The rest of the stuff that followed(EMB-170 sideletter, etc) was fruit of an apple that was rotten from the start because of the mentality from the top. You are right that UsAirways and United were the poster children for what not do in BK, but I can't really put the majority of the blame on national. Both carriers had history to look at with carriers like Braniff, EAL, PAA, and TWA. That said, while UsAirways has generally traveled the tougher road, United's MEC's have largely rolled over easier. Both gave up scope, but US ALPA struck a much better deal for their pilots than UA did, by an amazingly laughable margin. When it came to the A fund, the Airways guys did much more to fight the termination imo. Sorry for the small rehash of history, but to act like what happened to the airline (not the country) was unprecedented is silly to me.

What exactly does any of this has to do with a SLI for furloughed pilots? Probably little. This seems like something that will go to an arbitrator who quite frankly probably spend little time on that portion of the list compared to the attention it will get here. If we're talking about 'feeling good' about a particular sides argument, I suppose the CO furloughed guys will feel better about the fight their MEC puts up the UA ones will.

 

[NavinRJohnson]

The senior guys at UAL and CAL are going to look out for themselves... since the furloughed and MIL LOA guys are out of sight...... out of mind they are not going to be considered.....

Not true about MIL LOA. We keep seniority and longevity while on LOA, so we would be placed appropriately as an active pilot would. Nice try though...