United and CAL SLI for furloughed pilots

[skywdriver]

Being a CAL furloughed guy, I am really curious to get the opinions of some furloughed United guys on what they think a fair integration would be for the furloughed pilots from both sides. This of course assumes a deal is made through the rumored talks that are taking place right now.

It is almost certain that all CAL furloughed pilots will be back on property by the time the operations actually combine (it took Delta almost 2 years from announcing the merger to get the combined operating certificate and I don't even know if they are flying with combined crews yet). In fact, with the airplanes coming this year and next combined with more retirements, CAL will probably have to hire an addition 150-200 guys. I know this is all based on the economy continuing its recovery, but it appears to be on track for a slow but steady recovery.

So, I would make the argument that putting the furloughs (as of the date a deal is announced) on the master list by date of hire would be absolutely ridiculous. There is a good chance I will be back on property as the SLI is being discussed, so to say that career expectations mean nothing to a furlough who has already returned as an active pilot is totally dumb. In my opinion, the most fair thing to do would be to have a clause in the integration that says anyone who goes back as an active pilot before the certificates are combined will be placed at the bottom of the list of active pilots by date of hire, then anyone still on furlough will be placed below all active pilots by date of hire.

Any opinions?

 

[FDJ2]

Any opinions?

Category/Status ratio.

The number of pilots on furlough from one list, on the date of constructive notice, would most likely be integrated with the number ofr furloughed pilots on the other.

There may be some tweaking of the lists, but it would most likely be predominantly a ratioed list based on the job brought to the merger. Wide bodied captains with wide bodied captains, narrow bodied captains with narrow bodied captains all the way down to furloughed pilots with furloughed pilots.

 

[bluefin]

DOH= 2000 for me! In all honesty, I and many other furloughed UAL guys will get the royal shaft. I have already discussed the issue with ALPA reps and we are $%^&ed. Time on property plus career expectations are part of the equation. Currently I have 10+ seniority number, but only 3 yrs on property. Being furloughed I have 0 career expectation at this time. If Cal has less than 200 on furlough, you guys are golden.

 

[bluefin]

But don't think about being recalled. You will be on indefinite furlough, believe me the 70 seaters are gonna come with this merger. Your chance of recall will be gone.

 

[skywdriver]

But don't think about being recalled. You will be on indefinite furlough, believe me the 70 seaters are gonna come with this merger. Your chance of recall will be gone.

we have to negotiate a combined contract. our contract doesn't allow more than 50 seat jets as you probably know, so what a great opportunity for UAL guys to get back some of the flying that you lost and keep it at 50, or put 70+ seat payrates in the new contract and have them flown under mainline. i know the company could buy out some of the top of the CAL list and convince them to give up scope limits on seats, but many of the newer hires have seen the results of those mistakes and are willing to fight for our current scope. i would hope that many of your fellow United pilots are pissed off enough about giving scope in bankruptcy that they would be willing to put up a fight against it as well.

 

[bluefin]

We are more than pissed off! and ready to fight, more so than our union.

 

[Furloughed80]

A CAL/UAL merger would provide us with opportunity to strengthen scope and obtain an industry leading contract; as long as we all work together.

 

[skywdriver]

A CAL/UAL merger would provide us with opportunity to strengthen scope and obtain an industry leading contract; as long as we all work together.

if every single pilot on both lists had that mentality, we could merge, get everyone back on property, and maybe even start hiring. there is no reason we couldn't fly 70 seat jets under a combined United/CAL.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

Stop with the integration banter....nobody knows what will be worked out yet...Speculation pisses everyone off. I would like to see buyouts on both sides and have everyone recalled on both sides. I'm thinking this time the deal will be done like it or not.

 

[catIIIc]

Stop with the integration banter....nobody knows what will be worked out yet...Speculation pisses everyone off. I would like to see buyouts on both sides and have everyone recalled on both sides. I'm thinking this time the deal will be done like it or not.

Well said If this thing gets done let our respective merger committees handle the SLI and Scream at our Negotiating Committee on what we want in our new combined contract. Let the process work.

 

[General Lee]

Whatever you do, get the joint contract done first. Then, CAL guys will ask for relative seniority, and UAL guys will go for DOH, and it will go to arbitration. Sound familiar? Good luck to all involved.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[stillflyn]

Being a CAL furloughed guy, I am really curious to get the opinions of some furloughed United guys on what they think a fair integration would be for the furloughed pilots from both sides. This of course assumes a deal is made through the rumored talks that are taking place right now.

It is almost certain that all CAL furloughed pilots will be back on property by the time the operations actually combine (it took Delta almost 2 years from announcing the merger to get the combined operating certificate and I don't even know if they are flying with combined crews yet). In fact, with the airplanes coming this year and next combined with more retirements, CAL will probably have to hire an addition 150-200 guys. I know this is all based on the economy continuing its recovery, but it appears to be on track for a slow but steady recovery.

So, I would make the argument that putting the furloughs (as of the date a deal is announced) on the master list by date of hire would be absolutely ridiculous. There is a good chance I will be back on property as the SLI is being discussed, so to say that career expectations mean nothing to a furlough who has already returned as an active pilot is totally dumb. In my opinion, the most fair thing to do would be to have a clause in the integration that says anyone who goes back as an active pilot before the certificates are combined will be placed at the bottom of the list of active pilots by date of hire, then anyone still on furlough will be placed below all active pilots by date of hire.

Any opinions?

If there is one thing that I've learned in this industry its better to have a great job with ok seniority than a $hitty job with great seniority. CAL & UAL getting together with the two pilot groups working together could help reshape an ok job back into a great carrier!

That being said, the furlough issue won't be an easy one. I was involuntarily furloughed in 2003 with a 99 hire date. I was back in 2006 for two more years and then took a voluntary furlough along with a bunch of other guys. This time the difference is, I still have guys on property actively flying who are junior to me. It's not just me in this situation. We have 747-400, 777, 767 captains who took the voluntary furlough.

There have been a few times in history where guys on the same list who swapped seniority but it has always been overturned through a court order. This happened in 1985 at UAL when D. Farris fired the 570 pilots who didn't show up during the strike that were on probation. The court ordered him to bring them back. When he did he put them at the bottom of the list below about 600 pilots he had hired since then. It didn't last, they had their day in court and got their rightful seniority back.

My guess is the guys that took a voluntary furlough with guys on the property below them that are actively flying will be treated as if on a leave of absence. The guys that are involuntarily furloughed..... who knows. I still think that there will be a lot of weight given to longevity. (time served)

When it's all said and done the most junior guy should have a pretty good job that makes it worth being there for.

Just my opinion, I'll probably end up being wrong..........

 

[75 Driver]

The consolidation of flying and aircraft types would yield a smaller than current workforce. The current projection is that it would entail an additional 1000 pilots on the street.

The only numbers that make sense to make the merger happen is the synergies created by reducing cost to have the same market presence. When Cal get's a real look at how poorly run we at Untidy are, they will either turn and run or slash every aspect of our sillyness.

TK will be history within months, SAM will also have some serious reductions due to it's inherent inefficiencies. These two parts of Untidy are so poorly run on a cost benefit basis that they will not survive either a CAL or a USAir merger in their current configuration.

 

[mamba20]

75 Driver,

Whos projections are those? Does that account for age 65 catching up? Any early outs offered? Planned growth at CAL (not sure if UAL has any) Seems to me like we are getting ahead of ourselves here.

 

[RocketRob]

also how about a "no furlough clause" as a part of the joint contract. Didn't Delta negotiate one of these with there merger?

I know what TK is but what is SAM?

 

[whatitdoing?]

Guys, let's just merge and be fair to everyone. If we don't get on the same page and enjoy flying with each other we'll end up burning the place down. Drinks on me....

 

[Jetjockey]

I don't buy that a combined list would yield 1,000 extra furloughs. I saw once if CAL had UAL work rules, they would need an extra 800 plus pilots. Not even considering over 60 guys who would bail before a merger was consummated.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

The consolidation of flying and aircraft types would yield a smaller than current workforce. The current projection is that it would entail an additional 1000 pilots on the street.

The only numbers that make sense to make the merger happen is the synergies created by reducing cost to have the same market presence. When Cal get's a real look at how poorly run we at Untidy are, they will either turn and run or slash every aspect of our sillyness.

TK will be history within months, SAM will also have some serious reductions due to it's inherent inefficiencies. These two parts of Untidy are so poorly run on a cost benefit basis that they will not survive either a CAL or a USAir merger in their current configuration.

The current projection??? Is this before or after uncle titty parked 100 jets. Do you really think that w/ a merger that labor will be "ok" with more furloughs? What about buyouts for the 747 cpts like yourself. Guys with your seniority last time I talked to one had no idea UAL had guys on the street. Get your head out of the clouds.

 

[ATRCA]

Guys, let's just merge and be fair to everyone. If we don't get on the same page and enjoy flying with each other we'll end up burning the place down. Drinks on me....

I've got a box of matches! Where do I start??

 

[pilotgolfer]

also how about a "no furlough clause" as a part of the joint contract. Didn't Delta negotiate one of these with there merger?

I know what TK is but what is SAM?

SAM is the Maintenance Operation