United and CAL SLI for furloughed pilots

[Morgoth]

If CAL wants to help out its furloughed guys, it needs to get them back before the summer flying. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear that will happen.

I wouldn't be too sure about that.

 

[skywdriver]

It is interesting that every time the word 'merger' is mentioned, pilots act as though contracts - including those with third parties - are disposable. They are not. UA has contracts with numerous FFD carriers and those contracts must be honoured until expiry unless the plan is to put UA into CH11 once again.

A joint contract that applies to both pilot groups must be voted on in the event of a merger. The old contracts that each pilot group operate under only apply to those two groups separately, which no longer applies once the pilots operate under a joint seniority list. All things I am sure you know, so would you not consider a joint contract a new contract?

Do contracts with the regionals require the joint pilot group to vote on a joint contract that allows that flying? Absolutely not. What happens when management says, "Hey, you guys better vote on this contract that allows us to continue operating 70 seats, because we have contracts with those carriers that would cost us a lot of money to break"? The pilots say, "Your problem not ours. Either you put a contract on the table that has what we want in it, or you can run this new airline with two separate pilot groups operating under two seperate contracts until you do."

The burden of a joint contract falls fully in the hands of the management team that runs the new airline. Without that, their deal doesn't work the way they want it to. Not the pilots' problems. There are two ways to get out of a contract, let it expire, or pay. Not my problem if they have to pay to get out of those contracts.

Everyone says the biggest controllable deterioting factor for this profession the past few years was giving up scope. Well, if UAL and CAL merge, and the pilots don't use the power they hold to get it back, then that will become the newest cause to the downfall of this profession. If a merged CAL/UAL pilot group could get "regional" flying back to mainline, then I guarantee that would be a fight that every other major airline pilot union would fight for in the next contract negotiation.

Don't miss the chance should it present itself by making management's merger complications your justification to give them what they need because it would otherwise be costly or complicated for them. That is their problem.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Good idea, let's get rid of the gravy. there is no use for it anyway since the potatoes and meat are missing anyway.

Before you start your banter with me I am not one of these senior guys you have it in for but your idea is silly. You should know be now if you give stuff up it is very difficult to get back. So as a guy who hopes to become senior I am not in favor of this gimmick.

It is not a gimmick... rather pragmatic... but then again.. when have the senior guys been pragmatic in the last 20 years?

Seniors guys gave scope away. Morally and ethically, shouldn't they get it back? If not them, then who? Surely not the junior guys?

Since the senior pilots gave it away, and they are the only ones with any chips on the table, who else has anything to bargain with? Surely not the junior guys? Should the junior guys be a furlough for another five years? Give up the Airbus?

Your statement: You should know be now if you give stuff up it is very difficult to get back.

While it might be true it is assuming that the economics across the seniority list are fair and reasonable. I can assure you they are not. Let's take first year pay. ALPA has traditionally forgone first year pay because pilots are only there for a year, then they move up like George and Weezy. Why waste negotiation capital on first year pay?

The real question is... how low is too low for first year pay? Are we saying that $19/hr at the regionals is the reference for a pathetic $30 at UAL/CAL?

The point is you can't keep selling out the junior guys all so you can make statements like "You should know be now if you give stuff up it is very difficult to get back."

At some point you are going to have to define the profession from the bottom up and not with a brass ring that many can't even reach.

The current contract set up is unsustainable. It must be reworked. Mindsets of "you'll be senior one day and you can get yours" are flawed. At the current pace guest workers with residence permits and thick accents will be your FOs and you'll (we all will) become a dying breed in a once proud yet now forgotten profession.

Note to senior guys: In BK you were willing to give up a lot just to keep your spot on the seniority list. That is what is most important: the steady paycheck twice a month so you can eat, pay your house note and send your kids to college. Not the A fund. (UAL). (funny, that is what we all want)

Therefore, keep you spot on the seniority list and get scope back. You drove us here.... now drive us out.....