Union coming at Flexjet!

[G4dude]

"A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position"

You represented that brining in a union would prevent FlexJet from firing people for just cause. I disproved your strawman argument. Unions don't prevent terminations when the just cause provisions have been met.

Next issue troll?

History and experience disagrees with you, Grizz. The best friend of a substandard pilot is a union. having said that, an in-house union is vastly preferable to the Thugsters.

 

[gunfyter]

Best friend of every pilot is his union.... Even the pilots in other companies that are non-union benefited from the work of NJASAP. Including the 121 airlines (when we were still TEAMSTERS!)... for example on reserve duty and rest rules....

So you can say thank you Executive Jet pilot's union. Thank you Teamsters ... that the FAA finally enforces its duty/prospective rest rules ... Thank you for 91K!

No thanks to the Gang of Thieves (135 operators) who collectively sued the FAA to try to prevent Pilot Rest. (See Aviators vs the FAA)

 

[Grizz]

The 2005 and 2007 contracts that NetJets pilots enjoy were both negotiated while under the Teamsters. We went our own way for primarily two reasons -

1) We had matured and established a competent office staff (infrastructure) that went with us and
2) We realized that we were doing most of the hard work and could better utilize the dues revenue that we were sending to IBT National.

The Teamsters provided the initial structure and time that allowed us to grow and mature as an organization. It was critical to have their support as we moved forward. The success or failure of an employee group depends solely on that group. If the FlexJet pilots want to succeed, stay united and work hard for their first contract, it won't matter whether it's an in-house union or one serviced by the IBT.

Ideally, an in-house union would allow the greatest autonomy and control but that just isn't realistic given the size of the pilot group at Flex and the lack of infrastructure to service the members.

As some of your are aware, I was very involved in the separation from the Teamsters at NetJets. If I were at Flex, I'd vote for the Teamsters in a New York minute.

 

[John MClain]

The 2005 and 2007 contracts that NetJets pilots enjoy were both negotiated while under the Teamsters. We went our own way for primarily two reasons -

1) We had matured and established a competent office staff (infrastructure) that went with us and
2) We realized that we were doing most of the hard work and could better utilize the dues revenue that we were sending to IBT National.

The Teamsters provided the initial structure and time that allowed us to grow and mature as an organization. It was critical to have their support as we moved forward. The success or failure of an employee group depends solely on that group. If the FlexJet pilots want to succeed, stay united and work hard for their first contract, it won't matter whether it's an in-house union or one serviced by the IBT.

Ideally, an in-house union would allow the greatest autonomy and control but that just isn't realistic given the size of the pilot group at Flex and the lack of infrastructure to service the members.

As some of your are aware, I was very involved in the separation from the Teamsters at NetJets. If I were at Flex, I'd vote for the Teamsters in a New York minute.

Thank you Grizz.

 

[John MClain]

Warlord, if it is "pittly-ass stuff," why the full court press from management on the issue? As many times as a union has been brought to the surface here, and failed miserably might I add, then why don't management put out a message stating that the pilot group should put this to a vote? This way, the vote is taken, and one way or another we move forward as a group?

I fail to see where attacking peoples opinions and views does anything to help Flexjet. FR and I am sure DG, as well as any other high ranking management personnel, has their contract in hand. Why is it so bad that there are pilots that want their own?

For those attacking LR45DRVR, give it a rest. He, just like you, has every right to express his concerns regarding unionizing. While he may have been wrong in the personal attacks, so were you.

I think we all can agree that the FOFG is nothing but a turd in a different wrapper, but some of those guys are trying. Will it do any good? Probably not. Since the CP states that Flexjet will manage how they see fit regardless of what others say, that pretty much sums up where the FOFG can go with our concerns.

The worst thing the pro union guys/gals can do is put out comments that have no proof or backing what so ever. Stick to the facts and discuss the facts, but do it as the professionals we all are.

To the guys/gals in charge of the IBT site. Fix the dang enrollment process. I talk to guys/gals everyday who are pissed that they cannot access the site. You want discussions fix that. If this is how you want to be seen by our group as to how we will be represented, you are failing miserably. You have the best chance in years to pull this off, but lack of abilities to access that site makes you look highly unorganized and inefficient.

Now where is that tequila?

For those who have registered on the IBT site and are still not able to log on:

1. Check you email spam box for a response which includes the info needed to log on.
2. If there is none or was perhaps deleted, review the original welcome letter and personally contact the individual listed, he will verify some info and have you accessing the Flexjet IBT forum in 5 minutes.

Do it! this too important not to get involved and educate yourself.

 

[doh]

Could one of you please answer my question.

 

[NewFlex]

I see the orifice has released it's Midget Troll King, SG McShorty. Back in the whole Troll, management doesn't love you either. Hahahahaha

If Gross and Reid work under a contract, then why shouldn't we. Simply put, it only seems fair.

 

[John MClain]

I have another question. Since we are not under the RLA, can management change the rules after we certify the union? We don't have stutus quo restrictions do we?

Don't know what rules you're referring to. If you're talking about work rules and such, it would depend on the contract and the wording. Most have a section regarding this and make it virtually impossible or at least very difficult for management to change the non-regulatory day to day operations or fail to be in compliance with those rules.

Something that happens on a regular basis now a Flexjet.

 

[warlord19]

Boy, SG mentions internet pottymouth and look who pops up first...Mr. NewFlex. Congrats, Pard.
WL

 

[doh]

Don't know what rules you're referring to. If you're talking about work rules and such, it would depend on the contract and the wording. Most have a section regarding this and make it virtually impossible or at least very difficult for management to change the non-regulatory day to day operations or fail to be in compliance with those rules.

Something that happens on a regular basis now a Flexjet.

Under the RLA the policy book becomes the status quo. Management is not allowed to change written policies until you have a first contract. That does not apply to us as we are not an air carrier as defined by the RLA. So my question is: can management make changes before we have a first contract in place or does status quo apply outside of the RLA?

 

[ultrarunner]

Under the RLA the policy book becomes the status quo. Management is not allowed to change written policies until you have a first contract. That does not apply to us as we are not an air carrier as defined by the RLA. So my question is: can management make changes before we have a first contract in place or does status quo apply outside of the RLA?

DOH, the term 'Status Quo' stems from the Taft-Hartley act, which came into being before many of us, gummers excluded, were born. It is not specific to the RLA.

 

[exagony]

Is it me or does it seem that management with their recent emails talking about the "consequences" of a union at Flexjt border on a "hostile working environment"? Any HR gurus on board? Its my impression that there is an underlying threat being presented by mgt towards those who are pro-union.... Thoughts?

 

[warlord19]

My thoughts.....your full of *hit. Anytime anyone opposes a union on property or has a different view ie independant, you attack them personally, call them names, and generally come up with something like your post, whose ONLY purpose is to stir the pot. I think your troll "Grizz" calls them straw persons, erh, men.
WL

 

[Grizz]

You really are dumber than a box of hammers Warlord. I said your argument was a strawman. I even gave you a definition so you could follow along.

Would it help if I typed slower so you could keep up?

 

[warlord19]

Uh, Ole Grizzy Boy, you might re-read my post...you might get it the second time...but I doubt it.
WL

 

[gunfyter]

Reading Comprehension

You really are dumber than a box of hammers Warlord. I said your argument was a strawman. I even gave you a definition so you could follow along.

Would it help if I typed slower so you could keep up?

Easy Griz.

Remember:

If you are reading this ... thank your teacher (who was probably union). If you are reading this while in prospective rest (that can't be interrupted or changed), thank a Teamster.

Unless you enjoyed the ASAP callouts we all constantly had prior to 91K...

 

[twincessna]

http://www.trackwary.com/

Wonder now if we really are being tracked and listened to.

 

[dbman]

http://www.trackwary.com/

Wonder now if we really are being tracked and listened to.

Uuuhhhh, YES! But did you really just figure out this was happening?

Flexmobile is what's referred to as an inhouse programmed enterprise solution. They can add all kinds of neat tracking code whenever they upload or update the flexmobile system and you will never notice it. These tracking tools can include the sites you visit and data sent, including search text and usernames. Better hope you're not visiting flightinfo from your blackberry!

Now that crackberries are all company paid phones, they have access to your text and call records as well (well they did before but now a little more legit) and rumor has it they have used some of this info to drag people in for carpet dances trying to ferrett out union supporters or just plain harrass some into being moles.

Union supportive or not, I wouldn't use my company cell phone for anything. They can, have and will use the information to their advantage. Called in sick? Well they can see you're really out running errands not home in bed. Made a minor mistake on a flight? Well, maybe they'll chalk it up to the quick call you made to you're wife, call it deriliction of duty and fire you over it. Or just get onto you for too much talk time period. Now, I'm not saying these things are okay to do, I don't myself, but to hold the balance of one's career and family in their hands over pissy ant stuff is a bit much.

Well, I'm exeragerating a bit. They won't really fire you. They don't gave the stones for that themselves. They'll just make sure you get the fleet hatchet boy your next ride through the TC. Are TC guys mostly good guys just doing their jobs best they can - without a doubt yes. But the honest ones will admit they've all been asked to lean on certain guys a little harder than usual and the ones with integrity don't treat anyone any differently than they would otherwise. But every fleet has that one everyone dreads getting because they actaully enjoy the whole kingmaker fantasy they have going on in their head.

Plain and simple if you don't have a problem with these methods, a union might not be for you. If you're okay getting your concerns addressed only occasionally or whenever there is threat of a card drive, a union might not be for you. If you're okay with the same phrases echoed over the same concerns without movement, then a union isn't for you. If you're okay letting someone with a vested financial interest in marginalizing your worth deciding your fate, then a union isn't for you. If you're okay with the constant vaguely veiled threats coming to your inbox every week that always start with "While I support your right to unionize...." then, well you get the picture. Not enough time to get into all the half-truths spewed forth in those letters, but maybe another time.

Management's nervous for a reason boys and girls. They are finally getting the picture they have pushed it too far. FR and DG were only worth it to Montreal as long as they kept a union off the property. Yes, Big Papa has other unionized workgroups and work well with them. But with a unionized pilot group they will need a different kind of management team. Fred and Dave are fighting for their jobs now too. It's gonna get ugly...

 

[exagony]

My thoughts.....your full of *hit. Anytime anyone opposes a union on property or has a different view ie independant, you attack them personally, call them names, and generally come up with something like your post, whose ONLY purpose is to stir the pot. I think your troll "Grizz" calls them straw persons, erh, men.
WL

If this was directed towards me then I would ask where I have attacked anyone personally, called them names etc... Have a feeling your either mgt (I guess that might be construed as insult to some..) or one of the company paid instigators.

 

[warlord19]

Mr. dbman, guess you can believe any thing you want about Flexjet actively tracking you, about space aliens, or anything else you want to believe. But you really reveal your hand in your 3rd paragraph when you state “rumour has it...blah blah blah. Care to site ONE example from your rumour source.

I've read quite a few pro-union posts here, but I believe you have just set a new standard for made-up grievances and half-truths...I hope and believe that Flexjetter's reading your missive will recognize it for what it is.

Mr. exagony, your prevous post (4-9-11) on Flex having a “hostile working environment” struck me as phony at best, self-serving at worst....you obviously have never worked at a company that had that type of environment. Your last word was “Thoughts?” I gave you my immediate thought...perhaps I should have waited a few minutes and, though my thoughts would be the same, could have said the more politically correct phrase “full of corn”.
WL

 

[exagony]

Mr. dbman, guess you can believe any thing you want about Flexjet actively tracking you, about space aliens, or anything else you want to believe. But you really reveal your hand in your 3rd paragraph when you state “rumour has it...blah blah blah. Care to site ONE example from your rumour source.

I've read quite a few pro-union posts here, but I believe you have just set a new standard for made-up grievances and half-truths...I hope and believe that Flexjetter's reading your missive will recognize it for what it is.

Mr. exagony, your prevous post (4-9-11) on Flex having a “hostile working environment” struck me as phony at best, self-serving at worst....you obviously have never worked at a company that had that type of environment. Your last word was “Thoughts?” I gave you my immediate thought...perhaps I should have waited a few minutes and, though my thoughts would be the same, could have said the more politically correct phrase “full of corn”.
WL

Well Mr Warlord - you explicitly accused me of calling anti union people names here. Look like you can't prove it because it didn't happen. As a matter of fact I said that everyone needs to research both sides for themselves and to do what is best for them. Hardly calling anyone names... No need to apologize as its explicitly clear that you are either mgt or working for an union busting company. As far as working in a hostile working environement 2 things - you have no idea where I have worked and I have indeed worked in a very hostile working environment. So yes I do know what I am talking about. When mgt/company implies "consequences" for voting pro union it is an implied/veiled threat to those who may want a union. This is against the law. Don't believe me? Just look at the BB and tell me why there are only mgt/training dept pilots piping up against the union. Line pilots who have to deal with the edicts passed down by mgt are afraid to voice up as doing so jepordizes their job. If you deny this is the truth - it would only prove more so that you are mgt or working for H&F. Not only is this against the law NRLB - look it up - it also makes a hostile working environment as those who have different opinions/views fear reprecussions or termination because they don't toe the company line. Mr Reid and Turner and Gross all have contracts - why not the pilots? If you think all the pro-union guys are wrong then lets put it to a vote now and get it over with. I can live with it either way. The motivation for a union- as I understand it- is not about pay - its about having a legitimate voice with the company - not a dictatorship as it stands right now. The FOFG staffed by pilots are told what issues are going to be addressed at their meetings by Turner. We can propose anything we want but he and only he decides what is discussed... WTFO??? Rules at Flex are constantly bent to the company's benefit at their whim - but should a pilot do the same we are called in the office for a "talk". God forbid someone voices concern on the "changeband" bs - they will get called in for a carpet dance for that too as several pilots already have. Everyone worth their salt wants Flex to be sucessful but many pilots are just sick of the company's heavy hand. If you like it here without a union - good for you I ask you to vote that way - the rest of us will vote what is best for us. Whichever way that turns out to be.

 

[brokeflyer]

people like warlord are exactly why you need a union. A union not only protects the employees, it protects the company from itself. Management would love nothing better than to have you all work 20 hour days flying broken airplanes....

 

[HiSpeedFlyer]

I think that one of the main drivers for a union - and justifiably so - is that a union would give the pilots a "voice" with management that they have to listen to. How many times does the company interpet the rules to the "company's benefit" vs the "pilot's benefit". Seems the chief pilots and management always find a way to twist and bend the FOM to the company's favor and very rarely to the pilot's favor. The rules are the rules as long as they are applied to the pilot's group - yet when the pilots call the company out on violating the same rules we get the "well that is not what we intended it to mean when we wrote it"...
How about the FOFG -guys and gals doing their best to present issues to mgt. Yet MGT AND ONLY MGT gets to decide what issues are discussed and when. With a union - we the pilot group - get a LEGITIMATE voice in what is to be discussed and fixed - not just mgt.
A union will provide relief for pilots being treated like red headed step children by mgt and scheduling. It will force them to "play by the rules" just like we have to. No more of the adjusting an early morning show by a few minutes so that they can aviod a min day even thought its obvious that is exactly what happens.
For all the previously non union members of FLex - including alot of the senior cool aid drinkers... WAKE UP! No a union won't save a job, but it will give you a voice in what happens should someone buys us out. It will give you backup for when mgt/scheduling tries to bend/break the rules in the FOM that we are forced to live by but they do so at their whim. It will force mgt to actually address issues that the pilot group has been pressing for but mgt continuously sidesteps. The list goes on and on. A union doesn't have to be contentious - look at Southwest - it just gives the pilots a legitimate voice that mgt HAS TO LISTEN TO vs the way they do bx now.
Before anyone cries about dues - its tax deductable and at the end of the day it will most likely be a push or near push when you do your taxes every year. $1500 or so a year is not going to break the bank for any of our senior pilots. (I have no idea what it would be as I am not involved in the organizing of this)

Lastly I would say everyone should EDUCATE themselves about the realities of a union. Don't listen to the mgt hacks nor to the union hacks - educate yourself and do what's in YOUR BEST INTEREST.

Well Said, ExAgony. I wouldnt worry too much about that other guy a few posts up from here....Same old dance, different partner. Stay educated and informed.

 

[Imissmypilot]

Hey Warlord

I see you live up to your name by supporting our great group of managers. Woohoo.
And you say you're not management, right.

Warlord
noun
A military commander exercising civil power in a region, whether in nominal allegiance to the national government or in defiance of it.

 

[netjetwife]

Some basic reasons to form a Union....

A seat at the table is not too much to ask.
And written rules you can count on to last.

A voice to raise issues that matter to you.
Deserve a say in your career? Yes you do!

Voting on your future is the American way.
Send in those cards with out further delay.



Best wishes to the Flex pilots and families! I know that my family is better off with the contract in place at NJ and I do believe that getting it in writing would benefit your group as well. Good luck with your card drive! NJW

 

[dbman]

Warlord --

Rumor -- having been told directly by other people it has happened to them but not have had the experience myself, I am being as fair as possible referring to it as rumor versus fact. I cannot verify anything I'm not in the room for. But there are many stories of those who were in the room but fear the reprisal of management if they were to specifically speak out. I would never wish anyone to risk their employment simply to please you or get a union in place. If anyone around here is sinking to a new low, look in the mirror.

Those of us that ACTUALLY work here, and not behind a F&H desk all know what they need know to decipher the facts in my post. Whether it passes you're agendized smell test is not my concern. I think the fact it rattled you says all it needs to.

And as far as the space aliens crack, almost every legitimate news organization out there has done a piece or two regarding how technology has changed the workplace and specifically mentions tracking tactics. I would say if Flexjet ISN'T doing it, they are behind the ball. Are you really as stupid and aimlessly argumentative as you come across or is there something I am missing? Not name-calling, I am honestly trying to figure out a way to put some modicum of value to your posts, I just can't figure out how...

Exagony - Perfect posts. Thanks for your clarity on the issues.

 

[johnnyride24]

Flex will never have what it takes to unionize, its all talk!!!!!!

 

[warlord19]

Boys, I had to put in 4 hours at the Harrison Ford Famous Actor/Union Buster Ltd desk today, then catch a flight to my a/c, fly a leg, and then make my way to this hotel where I can now see all your posts and missives. My, we have been busy...and, check out those boots on the always popular netjetwife avatar, plus the beautiful poem she wrote for all of us.
I was going to address you individually since each one of you took the time to post, but I 'm getting tired of rowing in the wind. Instead, here's a little story. Over the past couple of weeks I've flown with 3 different FO's (a rotation, then some time with HFFA/UB LTD, then another rotation, and all 3 of them were not in favour of a union at Flex. When you call me and other FreeFlex posters all your cute little names and accuse us of being management toads, trolls, panty sniffers, etc, I think you are calling a lot of Flex pilots those same names, hopefully a majority of them. I'll reiterate my stance(and that of many others) now...having weighed the benefits and costs associated with bringing a union on property, I chose not to have them here...it's really that simple....I couldn't care less what NJ, CS, FO or anybody else does...I only care about what happens to Flex.
WL

 

[exagony]

Boys, I had to put in 4 hours at the Harrison Ford Famous Actor/Union Buster Ltd desk today, then catch a flight to my a/c, fly a leg, and then make my way to this hotel where I can now see all your posts and missives. My, we have been busy...and, check out those boots on the always popular netjetwife avatar, plus the beautiful poem she wrote for all of us.
I was going to address you individually since each one of you took the time to post, but I 'm getting tired of rowing in the wind. Instead, here's a little story. Over the past couple of weeks I've flown with 3 different FO's (a rotation, then some time with HFFA/UB LTD, then another rotation, and all 3 of them were not in favour of a union at Flex. When you call me and other FreeFlex posters all your cute little names and accuse us of being management toads, trolls, panty sniffers, etc, I think you are calling a lot of Flex pilots those same names, hopefully a majority of them. I'll reiterate my stance(and that of many others) now...having weighed the benefits and costs associated with bringing a union on property, I chose not to have them here...it's really that simple....I couldn't care less what NJ, CS, FO or anybody else does...I only care about what happens to Flex.
WL

Still waiting for you to show me where I attacked non union supporters or called them names... line pilots tend not to open up to mgt pilots.... btw I support your stance as its your right to vote that way... - that is your opinion and you should vote that way. If a union is voted in welcome aboard - if not we'll just continue to "enjoy" the current mgt style of "do I say not as I do". Funny that you say line pilot's are not supportive - been here for quite a few of the union drives - the desperation from Waterview and you mgt pilots has never been so evident....

 

[exagony]

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