Union at Shares

[Fozzy]

Never say never but CS will not ever have free health benefits. I will gamble and say free health care as we know it today will go away at NJ as well.

What are you basing this on??!!?? Seriously. "go away"? Sorry NJA can not just change our benefits like they do at CS. We have something called a CBA! Educate yourself. You are leaving a lot of money on the table by not having a contract. Or maybe you like giving money away.
Sure, they may want to change things in 2010. But guess what, nothing changes until we vote yes.

Edit. Do you work for CS or NJA? Because if you are NJA we need to talk.

 

[Stinkbug]

That's exactly why your company should provide you with a crew meal free of charge.

A union contract isn't just about money, it provides a measure of protection against the constant pressure to do whatever it takes to get the job done.

If a company expects you to be ready at a moments notice, they need to meet your basic needs. Food and rest are at the top of the list.

At least we have a reliable crew meal program. From what I've heard about some of the other fracs, that's not necessarily the norm. Free crew meals would be nice though.

 

[Stinkbug]

What are you basing this on??!!?? Seriously. "go away"? Sorry NJA can not just change our benefits like they do at CS. We have something called a CBA! Educate yourself. You are leaving a lot of money on the table by not having a contract. Or maybe you like giving money away.
Sure, they may want to change things in 2010. But guess what, nothing changes until we vote yes.

Edit. Do you work for CS or NJA? Because if you are NJA we need to talk.

By not having YOUR contract, we may be leaving SOME money on the table, true enough. But our base pay is pretty close, our per diem is higher, and we work about the same amount per year. I'm aware of the differences in vacation and health care, but a blanket statement that we're giving away a ton of money simply by not having "a contract" seems to be assuming an awful lot. I had "a contract" at the regional I worked for, but I don't remember it netting me a whole lot of gain in the long run.

 

[Fozzy]

Deep thouhts.

They can change it at any time!
You are leaving money on the table.
You would not have what you have now if it was not for the NJA CBA.
When will they make an adjustment (COLA) to your current pay scale/benefits/retirement??? Oh wait I know, after we get a new CBA in 2010! I am sure that it will be just coincidence.
What kind of retirement do you have?
What happens when you fk up at work and get called in? When do you get to change fleets?
When do you get to upgrade?? And into what fleet???
What happens if they don't get your food to you in time?
What happens if you are exhausted and have to call fatigued? Twice? Three times? And the next day cancel for weather??
What happens if they don't get you home on your last day? How does that pay?
Do you get holiday pay?
Who gets let go if they (God forbid, seriously) furlough?
What happens if you get bought!?!

Do you need me to go on? I don't mean to be harsh, but you folks are operating without a net. Maybe you like that daredevil stuff. Me, I have nothing to prove. My family and I need as much security as we can get in our lives. My Union dues are money well spent.
And I get to write it off my taxes!

 

[Crash Pad]

Fozzy must be on the LEC, or have we found what Dwayne is doing post NWA/greater VA outside DC area.

 

[Stinkbug]

They can change it at any time!
You are leaving money on the table.
You would not have what you have now if it was not for the NJA CBA.
When will they make an adjustment (COLA) to your current pay scale/benefits/retirement??? Oh wait I know, after we get a new CBA in 2010! I am sure that it will be just coincidence.
What kind of retirement do you have?
What happens when you fk up at work and get called in? When do you get to change fleets?
When do you get to upgrade?? And into what fleet???
What happens if they don't get your food to you in time?
What happens if you are exhausted and have to call fatigued? Twice? Three times? And the next day cancel for weather??
What happens if they don't get you home on your last day? How does that pay?
Do you get holiday pay?
Who gets let go if they (God forbid, seriously) furlough?
What happens if you get bought!?!

Do you need me to go on? I don't mean to be harsh, but you folks are operating without a net. Maybe you like that daredevil stuff. Me, I have nothing to prove. My family and I need as much security as we can get in our lives. My Union dues are money well spent.
And I get to write it off my taxes!

Things have changed over the years, but they've been changes for the better.
We wouldn't have what we have now if it weren't for the Netjets CBA. So what? I could care less whether it's a "coincidence" or not. If our management is committed to keeping up with you, why should I pay union dues?
We have a 401k, same as you. Management knows it's a hot-button issue and I'm confident it will be improved.
People fk up all the time. Own up to it and you'll be fine. Management isn't out to ruin anyone's life.
People upgrade in roughly the amount of time they were told in the interview. I don't personally know of any exceptions to this. Every fleet is paid the same so I see no relevance in that respect.
If they don't get our food to us when we request it we get it on the next leg. Of course I don't like it when that happens, but that's how it is. What does your contract provide if that happens?
I've never called in fatigued, but I would imagine there would not be any repercussions. We take safety seriously and I'm sure scheduling would simply reassign the trip.
If they don't get us home the next day we get standard overtime.
The only holiday pay that I know of is offered on certain peak days, once or twice per year, on a volunteer basis.
I'm not worried about a furlough. I couldn't possibly speculate on how that would play out.
Again, getting bought out is not on my radar. I can't control everything.

Not trying to be combative here, you have valid points but I've never heard any of you guys present solid enough evidence as to why I should personally try to upset the balance of things here at CS.

 

[CA1900]

If our management is committed to keeping up with you, why should I pay union dues?

First, because it's not the same. Overtime and extended day provisions pay me about ten times what I pay a year in union dues, just as one example.

We have a 401k, same as you.

You have a 401k, but not even close to the same. We have a 50% match of up to 15% of our income, versus 6% at Shares. For a newhire, that's a difference of over $4,000 in company matching funds. That's not insignificant.

People fk up all the time. Own up to it and you'll be fine.

That worked great for the guys at Avantair, didn't it?

If they don't get our food to us when we request it we get it on the next leg. Of course I don't like it when that happens, but that's how it is. What does your contract provide if that happens?

So you'll fly a 3-hour leg with no food in your system because your lunch didn't make it? Doesn't sound like a great idea to me.

If we don't get our food, we delay the flight and go get some, simple as that.


A union's not a perfect solution by any means, but having seen what a non-union company will do to its employees at its whim, I'm much happier having a union on property. My dues are quite literally paid back tenfold every year just in overtime and extended days, not even counting the 40% payraise it negotiated. Money very, very well-spent.

 

[gunfyter]

I suspect there will not be a Union at CS in near future. Same with FLEX.

It seems like management will do enough to avoid it.

I think the FLOPS management did not do enough.

I think you really have to tick people off for them to take serious action.

 

[Stinkbug]

You have a 401k, but not even close to the same. We have a 50% match of up to 15% of our income, versus 6% at Shares. For a newhire, that's a difference of over $4,000 in company matching funds. That's not insignificant.

I'm confident our 401k will be improved in the near future. Do I know for sure, no.


That worked great for the guys at Avantair, didn't it?

Not sure what you mean by this. We're talking about CS, and I'm speaking from my personal experience with CS management.

So you'll fly a 3-hour leg with no food in your system because your lunch didn't make it? Doesn't sound like a great idea to me.

OK, I guess I didn't know what you were looking for with this question. The answer is that if we don't get our food and it's a matter of safety (and I agree that being famished is a safety issue), we can do whatever we have to do to rectify it. Ops will ensure that our crew meals are at our next destination, but I've delayed flights before to get food. That's not something that requires a contract to accomplish, just common sense.

 

[RCA]

"If we don't get our food, we delay the flight and go get some, simple as that." -NetJets explaining to the owner why their $20,000 airplane ride will be delayed.

If the human body can survive one week without food I'm fairly certain one could make it 3 or 4 hours with a light snack packed just for such an ocassion.

On second thought you guys have a union so therefore keeping the owners happy isn't important.

 

[learflyer]

"If we don't get our food, we delay the flight and go get some, simple as that." -NetJets explaining to the owner why their $20,000 airplane ride will be delayed.

If the human body can survive one week without food I'm fairly certain one could make it 3 or 4 hours with a light snack packed just for such an ocassion.

On second thought you guys have a union so therefore keeping the owners happy isn't important.

Carry some Clif Bars around you pu$$ies.

 

[Ultra Grump]

It'd be sweet if we had Clif Bars as standard aircraft stock!

 

[Seat 0A]

By not having YOUR contract, we may be leaving SOME money on the table, true enough. But our base pay is pretty close, our per diem is higher, and we work about the same amount per year. I'm aware of the differences in vacation and health care, but a blanket statement that we're giving away a ton of money simply by not having "a contract" seems to be assuming an awful lot. I had "a contract" at the regional I worked for, but I don't remember it netting me a whole lot of gain in the long run.

Several things you missed:

Here at NJA I am receiving around 30% OVER my base pay due to incidental overtime and an occassional 2 extended day's pay due to them not getting me home in 14 hours or by midnight on the last day (we also get time recovery off the front of the next tour so I pocket around $1600 and get all of my time back each time). So you are correct that our BASE pay is the same, a little over $92k for me but I had over $137k on the W2 for last year. That sounds like more than "some money".

Generally we do not spend our per-diem either. Many of your guys tell me they spend some each day. So the fact that you make about $10/day more per-diem than us really means you end up with about $10/day less doesn't it?

Same days per year? I worked 147 days in 2006. Had several 6 day tours because of the time recovery thing. Got home after midnight on the last day (and a little after Noon on my first day off), pocketed $1600, and had the first day off the next tour.

Keep in mind that I never asked for a single extra workday. Had I done that I would have made substantially more. I am also NOT on the reserve schedule but if I chose that it would add more than $17k to the base pay.

Oh yeah, I have already seen over $2000 in grievance payouts over the last 12 months.

So how does this real world example compare?

 

[Stinkbug]

Several things you missed:

Here at NJA I am receiving around 30% OVER my base pay due to incidental overtime and an occassional 2 extended day's pay due to them not getting me home in 14 hours or by midnight on the last day (we also get time recovery off the front of the next tour so I pocket around $1600 and get all of my time back each time). So you are correct that our BASE pay is the same, a little over $92k for me but I had over $137k on the W2 for last year. That sounds like more than "some money".

Generally we do not spend our per-diem either. Many of your guys tell me they spend some each day. So the fact that you make about $10/day more per-diem than us really means you end up with about $10/day less doesn't it?

Same days per year? I worked 147 days in 2006. Had several 6 day tours because of the time recovery thing. Got home after midnight on the last day (and a little after Noon on my first day off), pocketed $1600, and had the first day off the next tour.

Keep in mind that I never asked for a single extra workday. Had I done that I would have made substantially more. I am also NOT on the reserve schedule but if I chose that it would add more than $17k to the base pay.

Oh yeah, I have already seen over $2000 in grievance payouts over the last 12 months.

So how does this real world example compare?

Sounds fine and dandy, but again, that's YOUR contract. Results may and often do vary depending on economic conditions, negotiating committees, pilot attitudes, etc. There's no guarantee that we would be able to trump or even match your contract. And I remember that your pilots were miserable for years before you finally got the contract you have now. No misery here, at least speaking for myself. So maybe you can understand why not everyone here is eager upset the apple cart.

 

[Fozzy]

Sounds fine and dandy, but again, that's YOUR contract. Results may and often do vary depending on economic conditions, negotiating committees, pilot attitudes, etc. There's no guarantee that we would be able to trump or even match your contract. And I remember that your pilots were miserable for years before you finally got the contract you have now. No misery here, at least speaking for myself. So maybe you can understand why not everyone here is eager upset the apple cart.

Very good point. If your group does not have the desire, it is a lost cause. I see your point of view. But that 401K is patheticuke:. They could change it tomorrow. But will they? Don't count on it. Every day they wait saves them big bucks. Best paid in the industry is what your CEO says huh? Well, he is full of crap. He cares about nothing but the bottom line. That is how CEO's operate. But I digress.

Funny, I was talking to two CS guys today in the van at, wait I won't name the city, don't what the ass clowns to go after them. Anyways, they had nothing but good things to say about our CBA, had no problem saying we got them the raise. Basically they said, NJA is a career job, CS....not so much. It is to bad.
You guys need to raise that bar. Until then you are slackers!

 

[Humphreybogart]

How many of you NJ soapbox preachers have been there since their inception? You are all a bunch of band wagon jumpers that wern't there when your company was start up likeus at CS are. Us at CS have a reason to be proud at the growth we made in such a short time. We didn't jump on the CS bandwagon, we are dealing with the growing pains. We will never be as big as NJ (by design), but we will always be BETTER, and I am very proud to be a team member at CitationShares. WE ARE THE BEST. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Kid.

 

[pilotpat]

As I've said before...some of us weren't pilots or glimmer's in our parent's eyes in 1967. I guess that'd make every NJA pilot a bandwagon jumper. Sorry for the history lesson, but that's the simple truth, kid.

 

[dime line]

How many of you NJ soapbox preachers have been there since their inception? You are all a bunch of band wagon jumpers that wern't there when your company was start up likeus at CS are. Us at CS have a reason to be proud at the growth we made in such a short time. We didn't jump on the CS bandwagon, we are dealing with the growing pains. We will never be as big as NJ (by design), but we will always be BETTER, and I am very proud to be a team member at CitationShares. WE ARE THE BEST. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Kid.

Dang.........That was some extra "special" sugar in that kool aid. Must be better than the kool aid that our 33% are drinking

 

[fischman]

How many of you NJ soapbox preachers have been there since their inception? You are all a bunch of band wagon jumpers that wern't there when your company was start up likeus at CS are. Us at CS have a reason to be proud at the growth we made in such a short time. We didn't jump on the CS bandwagon, we are dealing with the growing pains. We will never be as big as NJ (by design), but we will always be BETTER, and I am very proud to be a team member at CitationShares. WE ARE THE BEST. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Kid.

I think it is a good thing you have so much pride in your company. Good for you!!!

However, I fail to see the point of the last comment?

BTW, I am proud of the growth we have enjoyed at NJA as well. It is a testament to the fine quality of the union pilots we have here.

 

[B19 Flyer]

It is a testament to the fine quality of the union pilots we have here.

There you go again. This is twice on these boards you have inferred that there is a difference betwen union pilots and a non-union pilots. Belonging to a union does not mean that a pilot is more professional or is of finer quality than a non-union pilot.