Unical SLI is out...

[MCDU]

looks like Cal was looking for a AWA STYLE WINDFALL.

M

 

[JohnQ]

looks like Cal was looking for a AWA STYLE WINDFALL.

M


No, they did exactly what the arbitrators told the AAA East NOT to do. They swung for a home run and struck out. The UAL side took the "prudent" course, didn't ask for the moon, and got a reasonable result.

The greater bottom line is that this combined group (even the soon-to-be-irate CAL side) learned from both your failed process and our (DAL/NWA) successful one.

1. Get a joint contract agreed to before any SLI resolution.

2. Have a 3-person arbitrator panel make the SLI decision, so you are not bound to the possible quirks of one individual.

AAA/AWA did neither, which is why you all to this day are what is pictured in the dictionary next to the word "dysfunction."

 

[Crzipilot]

Read this award and you'll see just why you should have been scared, and just why people like me were so adamant about going to arbitration. The CAL committee basically made the same arguments you guys have been making since this whole things started ("we make lots more money, our company is more stable, yada, yada, yada"), and the arbitrators basically tossed those arguments aside and said "yeah, that's nice and all, but both companies needed each other to prosper long-term, so we're calling it all a wash and only looking at seniority."

Because longevity was weighted 35% in the arbs decision. Have you even read the decision or just looked at the ISL? I guess that is hosed to you, hosed to me is losing 7 1/2 years longevity. Your RS as of 10/2005 should be very close to RS on the ISL. Also a voluntary furlough may be 25% but not an involuntary.

looks like Cal was looking for a AWA STYLE WINDFALL.

M


No, they did exactly what the arbitrators told the AAA East NOT to do. They swung for a home run and struck out. The UAL side took the "prudent" course, didn't ask for the moon, and got a reasonable result.

The greater bottom line is that this combined group (even the soon-to-be-irate CAL side) learned from both your failed process and our (DAL/NWA) successful one.

1. Get a joint contract agreed to before any SLI resolution.

2. Have a 3-person arbitrator panel make the SLI decision, so you are not bound to the possible quirks of one individual.

AAA/AWA did neither, which is why you all to this day are what is pictured in the dictionary next to the word "dysfunction."

No actually I think the first two quotes put it quite clear what was wrong with the AAA/AWA sli, if it had followed this result, I'm sure they'd be on contract 2 or 3 by now.

 

[densoo]

looks like Cal was looking for a AWA STYLE WINDFALL.

...and looks like UAL got it.

 

[Crzipilot]

So just curious, what were the hire dates of those on the CAL side that are saying they got screwed? Actually would be interesting to see Hire date with DOB compared to those that they got slotted next to. See how unfair this is.

Anyone outside of the merging partners get a copy of the decision yet?

 

[waveflyer]

You should have read ALPA Merger Policy. Longevity is a component that is required to be included. I asked a few months ago why the CAL MC thought that they could get away with not including it at all, and nobody had an answer. Now we know what the result was.

This stuff really gives your self proclaimed expertise a hard on doesnt it? Must really piss you off to not be part of your beloved ALPA-

I could say you've never argued longevity had a place in our SLI- but seriously- let this thread be with CAL/UAL before you go all Internet professor SLI on them-

 

[maxblast72]

Read this award and you'll see just why you should have been scared, and just why people like me were so adamant about going to arbitration. The CAL committee basically made the same arguments you guys have been making since this whole things started ("we make lots more money, our company is more stable, yada, yada, yada"), and the arbitrators basically tossed those arguments aside and said "yeah, that's nice and all, but both companies needed each other to prosper long-term, so we're calling it all a wash and only looking at seniority."

I think you need to reread the award great Nostradamus of pilot seniority arbitration awards. Here are two excerpts from the award that you must have missed:

"The relative value of the airlines is difficult to calculate with precision. According to investment banks like Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan Chase, the airlines' joint proxy statement credited United shareholders with 55% of the merged value and Continental shareholders with 45%. Unlike some airline mergers and many airline acquisitions, this was not a case of one strong entity swallowing a much weaker one. It was, rather, a case of two solid but troubled entities combining for mutual advantage."

"It is also appropriate to consider mutual gains that flow from the merger. On a
stand-alone basis, United Pilot hourly wage earnings were less than their counterparts at Continental. By contrast, the work rules and various elements of non-wage compensation of United Pilots were superior to those at Continental. On balance, the compensation and working conditions of both groups were elevated by the rising tide of the of the new Joint Collective Bargaining Agreement (“United Pilot Agreement” or “JCBA”), signed December 18, 2012 and amendable January 31, 2017 (Joint Exhibit 7)."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Did the AirTran and Southwest pilots both gain from the Southwest-AirTran JCBA? Did AirTran shareholders get 45% of the merged value of the new company? Trying to compare the United-Continental arbitration award to what a Southwest-AirTran award would have looked like is comparing apples to oranges. You and I both have no idea what an arbitration panel would have done in our case. Here is the quote that the arbitration panel wrapped up the United-Continental award with:

"George Nicolau's four basic verities of ISL arbitration are as apt and vital today as they were nearly a quarter of a century ago: each case turns on its own facts; the objective is to make the integration fair and equitable; the proposals advanced by those in contest rarely meet that standard; and the end result, no matter how crafted, never commands universal acceptance. ​

See Federal Express and Flying Tiger Pilots, (1990, at pp. 27-28.)."​

 

[list2002]

......... ...... .... ...

 

[ableone]

looks like Cal was looking for a AWA STYLE WINDFALL.

M

Ah yes a windfall, like the east proposal that furloughed pilots go ahead of lineholding west captains. But that's not a windfall.

 

[TWA Dude]

No actually I think the first two quotes put it quite clear what was wrong with the AAA/AWA sli, if it had followed this result, I'm sure they'd be on contract 2 or 3 by now.

What a shock that you don't understand what went on with this Award. Read it. You'll learn that these three arbitrators probably would've come up with exact same result as Nicolau. They would've fully considered the length of service of the furloughees and concluded their poor career expectation overrode it.

Furthermore, you Easties should learn once again that putting forth an unreasonable proposal only pisses of the arbitrators. After reading the text of this Award I believe it is completely reasonable. Assuming we progress to an AA-US SLI I pray USAPA learns from this since you're obviously incapable of doing so.

 

[waveflyer]

What a divisive cesspool SLI's from everywhere become-

Please- we all know where we all stand in relation to SWA/at, and east-west

I'm curious about the responses of cal/UAL pilots about this decision, not the rehashing of previous-
As I'm sure most lurkers agree-
I apologize for my previous remarks- please let cal/UAL have this thread

 

[AWACoff]

CAL side got screwed like a $2 wh@re. Congrats on the windfall LUAL. Any of you want to help TP the CAL MC's houses?

 

[canyonblue]

Read this award and you'll see just why you should have been scared, and just why people like me were so adamant about going to arbitration. The CAL committee basically made the same arguments you guys have been making since this whole things started ("we make lots more money, our company is more stable, yada, yada, yada"), and the arbitrators basically tossed those arguments aside and said "yeah, that's nice and all, but both companies needed each other to prosper long-term, so we're calling it all a wash and only looking at seniority."

I didn't know that UAL aquired CAL, I thought it was a merger.

"yeah, that's nice and all, but both companies needed each other to prosper long-term,

Not true for SWA, we just needed you short term, to go away. It was a cheap price to pay when you look at the final price, and unfortunately for you, you came at a discount bargain. Once again, it wasn't about two equal carriers in anyones eyes.

 

[eaglesview]

What a shock that you don't understand what went on with this Award. Read it. You'll learn that these three arbitrators probably would've come up with exact same result as Nicolau. They would've fully considered the length of service of the furloughees and concluded their poor career expectation overrode it.

Furthermore, you Easties should learn once again that putting forth an unreasonable proposal only pisses of the arbitrators. After reading the text of this Award I believe it is completely reasonable. Assuming we progress to an AA-US SLI I pray USAPA learns from this since you're obviously incapable of doing so.

Your first paragraph is pure speculation. The arbitrators took into account the lopsided wide body scenario. Usair had 767 and 330's AW had .........

You can blame Katz for the shoot for the moon mentality. Once again his entire proposal was thrown out due to being unreasonable and not following policy.

 

[eaglesview]

CAL side got screwed like a $2 wh@re. Congrats on the windfall LUAL. Any of you want to help TP the CAL MC's houses?

Obviously haven't read the award......you should be nervous.

 

[Remington]

Exactly General. Here comes Red, arrogance and all. How many times have we demonstrated the numerous benefits AirTran brought to the table: Planes, Options, International service, I.T. TECHNOLOGY, operational efficiencies, higher retirement company contribution, ATL access, etc. etc. Yet we keep hearing the same old BS line from him and his ilk while they steal every last AirTran 717 & 737 Capt. seat thus forcing an involuntary downgrade and associated pay cut, along with 25-35% loss of our seniority. "One LUV", "Golden Rule"...what a crock.

Word around the popcorn machine here at the FBO is that Citrus had Capt slots and walked from that deal.

 

[reepicheep]

What a shock that you don't understand what went on with this Award. Read it. You'll learn that these three arbitrators probably would've come up with exact same result as Nicolau. They would've fully considered the length of service of the furloughees and concluded their poor career expectation overrode it.

Furthermore, you Easties should learn once again that putting forth an unreasonable proposal only pisses of the arbitrators. After reading the text of this Award I believe it is completely reasonable. Assuming we progress to an AA-US SLI I pray USAPA learns from this since you're obviously incapable of doing so.

It's written in the award.....United "troubled" but not a chronic loser about to liquidate like usair was.....not like some previous mergers of unequals with one much weaker party (gee I wonder who they're referring to....)

 

[dicko]

You've got the wrong guy PCL.

I was never scared of arby. What did you bring? Parking passes? Please.

Funny isnt it - You sound exactly like the CAL and UAL pilots that spent a year arguing over the superiority of their respective airline. We can now see exactly what the result was. Even after this lesson you continue to do the same thing. The difference between you and them is this; neither you, nor your union had the integrity to use the arbitration process.

Even after this lesson in humility versus hubris, you continue to puff yourself up like a lizard and repeat the same tired hyperbole. Are you really that much of a fool, that even with this arbitration, you still can't see the forest ?

 

[TWA Dude]

Usair had 767 and 330's AW had .........

... a future beyond May, 2005.

You can blame Katz for the shoot for the moon mentality. Once again his entire proposal was thrown out due to being unreasonable and not following policy.

What's that old expression, fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me. Katz only gets a little blame -- both times.

 

[dicko]

Word around the popcorn machine here at the FBO is that Citrus had Capt slots and walked from that deal.

Do they talk about the decade of being forced to the bottom of the Captain list, until every SWA F.O. that is below you upgrades to seniority ahead of you ? The decade of being the junior Captain at every base in the system ? The loss of 35% seniority in exchange for the privilege of keeping the same seat ?

Too complicated for popcorn machine talk perhaps.