Unical SLI is out...

[PCL_128]

Heard he didn't like the deal but thought it should go to the rank and file cause of SWA history on acquisitions and taking employees.

Yep, you heard wrong. Let me guess: you heard this from maxblast?

 

[K-Mart]

Yep, you heard wrong. Let me guess: you heard this from maxblast?

AirTran pilot who heard it from one of your boards and SWAPA guy.

 

[PCL_128]

AirTran pilot who heard it from one of your boards and SWAPA guy.

"My best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who saw Ferris pass out at 31 Flavors last night. I guess it's pretty serious."

 

[K-Mart]

Pretty much!

 

[maxblast72]

Yep, you heard wrong. Let me guess: you heard this from maxblast?

Didn't get it from me. But let me pull a quote from the notes taken by the other ATN Merger Committee member from Pittsburgh during a July 21, 2011 meeting (5 days after AIP #1 was signed):

"DK - Don't analyze the list and C&Rs separately. They're married. Urges MEC to look at the entire package"

Of course, the ATN MEC refused to look at the whole package. If you need the reference, it is A-12-BAKT-000044. Since you are an ALPA EVP, I am sure they can get you that document. You might want to read through A-12-BAKT-000001 to A-12-BAKT-000066 since you were not a part of the ATN MEC in July 2011 (due to your recall in May 2011).

 

[redflyer65]

Recall?

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Bottom of the list got screwed! F**k alpa. I'll never wear that pin again!

Much better than actually becoming involved in your career. Congrats you handed the keys to your bank account to the senior guys. So many wonder why this job is swirling the drain.

 

[Shrek]

Nice thread drift......

 

[Golden Falcon]

Much better than actually becoming involved in your career. Congrats you handed the keys to your bank account to the senior guys. So many wonder why this job is swirling the drain.

remember your words when you're the senior guy...

 

[rudder]

Regardless, ALPA policy sucks. Written by a bunch of lawyers who have no friggin common sense.

The latest incarnation of the ALPA Merger Policy was written by a committee comprised of representation from many ALPA pilot groups including a rep from EACH of the then Major carriers, and including a pilot who also served on the recent CAL Merger Committee. And it was accepted by unanimous support at the ALPA Exec BOD level.

It wasn't written by lawyers. But it is abused by lawyers. Another reason for pilot groups to be more proactive in settling as many merger related issues as possible in advance of submitting narrow unresolved matters to arbitration

It was hoped that the revised policy would discourage the "lottery ticket" strategy. Apparently it did not do so in this case.

 

[taxicabdriver]

The 'United folks' got skrewed. Major windfall for LCAL; the problem with LCAL's perception is that they wanted an even bigger windfall than they got.

At mad I was 500ish from upgrade, now I am 4000.... I don't call that a windfall, I call it a beat down!

 

[LXApilot]

The new SLI is fair.

It takes into account the plans of UAL/CAL to merge when the airline was "right sized" and the last furlough went into effect. The "right sizing" was done with the future merger in consideration. As far as career expectations it also accounts for the fact that most CAL 2006,7,8 hires now mixed with 98,99 UAL guys were in flight training or just getting hired flying RJ's when these UAL guys were in class. It's fair and equitable, read the finding.. With the seniority movement about to take place over the coming years I wouldn't worry about it. In the past now: time to move on.

 

[Andy]

At mad I was 500ish from upgrade, now I am 4000.... I don't call that a windfall, I call it a beat down!

COMPLETE BS. The junior man matrix shows junior systemwide captain to be 737 in NYC. #9821, file number M3881. Add 4000 to that and you get #13821.
Here's where you run into problems ... there are only a total of 12434 pilots on the new seniority list, INCLUDING newhires.

Now, to further verify that you're not being honest, let's look at the junior captain in award 12-03, from Sep 2010 (AFTER MAD). Junior captain was #2914 with file number C3904. 500 numbers below him on the 1/1/2012 LCAL seniority list is file number G9165. He is a 737 captain in IAH. In fact, he's number 560 of 626 IAH captains. And there's another 46 737 EWR captains below his number. That's more than 100 pilots awarded captain BELOW the pilot who was 500 below the junior captain award from 9/2010.

 

[WolfManPack]

The new SLI is fair.

It takes into account the plans of UAL/CAL to merge when the airline was "right sized" and the last furlough went into effect. The "right sizing" was done with the future merger in consideration. As far as career expectations it also accounts for the fact that most CAL 2006,7,8 hires now mixed with 98,99 UAL guys were in flight training or just getting hired flying RJ's when these UAL guys were in class. It's fair and equitable, read the finding.. With the seniority movement about to take place over the coming years I wouldn't worry about it. In the past now: time to move on.

It was egregious. You know it, I know it, everybody else knows it whether you want to admit that or not. The only ones who actually believe what you wrote are the Legacy UAL pilots....not even the arbitrators believed it despite the award and their explanation. They did what they had to do to ensure ALPO didn't get voted off property.

You "don't worry about it" because you just got handed the windfall. If the shoe were on the other foot, trust me, you'd be worried about it.

This was not about you, this was not about me. This was about the viability of ALPO moving forward post SLI.

If you're not honest enough to admit that then I guess you have to live with it, not me.

Maybe or maybe not we will "move on" but I will tell you this much, it will NEVER be forgotten and I hope ALPO is punished severely for this debacle!

 

[eaglesview]

It was egregious. You know it, I know it, everybody else knows it whether you want to admit that or not. The only ones who actually believe what you wrote are the Legacy UAL pilots....not even the arbitrators believed it despite the award and their explanation. They did what they had to do to ensure ALPO didn't get voted off property.

You "don't worry about it" because you just got handed the windfall. If the shoe were on the other foot, trust me, you'd be worried about it.

This was not about you, this was not about me. This was about the viability of ALPO moving forward post SLI.

If you're not honest enough to admit that then I guess you have to live with it, not me.

Maybe or maybe not we will "move on" but I will tell you this much, it will NEVER be forgotten and I hope ALPO is punished severely for this debacle!

This is a bunch of crap...why would the arbitrators give a crap about ALPA? I find it funny that all this anger is spewed toward the L UAL pilots like we wrote the award. As I have said before why don't any of you CO pilots ask your own merger committee why they failed to send in a proposal that used the stated guidelines. That,s where your anger should be.

Pierce's letter to your group says it all when he said he got not one letter, phone call or email during the process. You were all ok then but you all want to bitch now.

The only thing ALPA. Should be " punished" for is forgiving all of the pilots on your side hired in the mid 80's. that is what we ( all of us) should never forget.

 

[WolfManPack]

This is a bunch of crap...why would the arbitrators give a crap about ALPA? I find it funny that all this anger is spewed toward the L UAL pilots like we wrote the award. As I have said before why don't any of you CO pilots ask your own merger committee why they failed to send in a proposal that used the stated guidelines. That,s where your anger should be.

Pierce's letter to your group says it all when he said he got not one letter, phone call or email during the process. You were all ok then but you all want to bitch now.

The only thing ALPA. Should be " punished" for is forgiving all of the pilots on your side hired in the mid 80's. that is what we ( all of us) should never forget.

Listen, I'm not going to get into a tit for tat argument with you regarding the award. ALPO won, it benefited you and that's that. Having said that, the reason nobody contacted Peirce about the SLI arguments on our side is because most, like me, assumed that the folks we put in place to represent us in this process knew what they were doing and were truly subject matter experts.

You'll get no argument from me regarding the quality of representation "my side" received during the arbitration but what you should realize is that this was never about either "side" it was about ALPO.

EVERYBODY knows that ALPO restructured their merger policy to ensure maximum chances that no decertification process would be successful after the next most likely merger between UAL and CAL. You have to give credit where credit is due....ALPO is very good at taking care of itself....it's just not good at actually representing the interests of all of it members simultaneously.

Overnight CAL side pilots in some cases have gone from bidding better than 50% in their respective base, equip, status to being junior reserve pilots. If you can't admit that is a severe windfall for one side then you are simply not being intellectually honest.

Really I would suggest you keep your gloating to yourself and just enjoy your windfall. Are you also the type of person that after having been a part of a team that decimates the other side that goes and laughs the opponent and taunts them. That's what you guys are doing whether you realize it or not.

 

[eaglesview]

Listen, I'm not going to get into a tit for tat argument with you regarding the award. ALPO won, it benefited you and that's that. Having said that, the reason nobody contacted Peirce about the SLI arguments on our side is because most, like me, assumed that the folks we put in place to represent us in this process knew what they were doing and were truly subject matter experts.

You'll get no argument from me regarding the quality of representation "my side" received during the arbitration but what you should realize is that this was never about either "side" it was about ALPO.

EVERYBODY knows that ALPO restructured their merger policy to ensure maximum chances that no decertification process would be successful after the next most likely merger between UAL and CAL. You have to give credit where credit is due....ALPO is very good at taking care of itself....it's just not good at actually representing the interests of all of it members simultaneously.

Overnight CAL side pilots in some cases have gone from bidding better than 50% in their respective base, equip, status to being junior reserve pilots. If you can't admit that is a severe windfall for one side then you are simply not being intellectually honest.

Really I would suggest you keep your gloating to yourself and just enjoy your windfall. Are you also the type of person that after having been a part of a team that decimates the other side that goes and laughs the opponent and taunts them. That's what you guys are doing whether you realize it or not.

No I just think your anger is misplaced. good day.

 

[Flopgut]

The only thing ALPA. Should be " punished" for is forgiving all of the pilots on your side hired in the mid 80's. that is what we ( all of us) should never forget.

Sorry, but you have to drop that stuff immediately. Unless you want to lump every pilot LUAL hired in 85 into that group, it no longer matters. I'm not going to thread that needle any more. I can't understand how guys like you act tough over that but give your own strike breakers a pass.

 

[eaglesview]

Sorry, but you have to drop that stuff immediately. Unless you want to lump every pilot LUAL hired in 85 into that group, it no longer matters. I'm not going to thread that needle any more. I can't understand how guys like you act tough over that but give your own strike breakers a pass.

I respectfully disagree. I do not forgive strike breakers and have never given our strike breakers a pass. The MAJOR difference here is ALPA gave the CO strike breakers a pass. No such pass, and rightfully so, was given to the UAL strike breakers.

It is not a difficult needle to thread. You either are one or you are not. The uniform you wear matters not.

 

[Flopgut]

I respectfully disagree. I do not forgive strike breakers and have never given our strike breakers a pass. The MAJOR difference here is ALPA gave the CO strike breakers a pass. No such pass, and rightfully so, was given to the UAL strike breakers.

It is not a difficult needle to thread. You either are one or you are not. The uniform you wear matters not.

There are pilots on CALs list that did no more wrong than 570s & 539s. If you intend to keep your list and your grudge you can put them ALL on it. Or my suggestion: Drop it.

Btw: the aforementioned UAL pilots are the ones who exiled the Frontier pilots in 86 so they could immediately upgrade. If you scale the inequities and who the culprits were, this is just as bad as what happened to you at Eastern.

Again, I can tell you from working at CAL, the quicker you can stow those feelings and stop feeding junior pilots your whole story, the better our futures will be.