Unfortunately CAL will lose it's 50 seat scope.

[Freedom]

Not a bad point there...

Here you go again......lot's of opinion, and no facts. Ever heard of retirements? The majors will have far more retirements than the newer upstarts. How many Jetblue pilots are scheduled to retire anytime soon? How about Virgin America? What about Airtran? That really isn't a senior "bunch." That means a bunch of middle aged guys enter the SWA list. That isn't good for movement. The Majors have tons of upcoming retirements.Ever seen the numbers? Over the next few years, up to 700 or more pilots leave PER YEAR, and that continues. Every guy that leaves there moves 20 or more people UPWARD. Same goes for UAL/CAL, AA, and USAir.

And where do you come up with the Majors having ONLY INTL flying? Give me a break. Oil is moving higher, and RJs are again becoming less and less attractive. And, scope clauses do work, and with more profits at the Majors, managements have less leverage to ask for concessions on anything, including scope. I think you need to re-read the part on negotiations and leverage. Sometimes you DON'T have to give up something to gain something else. When you are coming off of a BK contract, everything goes UP. When your closest neighbor (Airtran) gets a huge raise thanks to a SWA merger, that can only help DL's future negotiations. That new raise for Airtran will be the starting point for wage increases there. And guess what? I want to be a part of it. I have 3 internal recs, and I am hoping for an interview during this next round. I don't want to fly more domestic flying. I want to try something new.

And did you say more regional jobs? After the FAA imposes new hiring minimums? Won't that hurt Regional airlines, affecting how they hire? They may have to raise rates to attract anyone with enough hours to qualify. If they do that, then they will become less efficient, and that means they will likely downsize because their costs will go up. Then throw in the new rest and fatigue rule requirements, and that will do another number on regionals. Min rest hours at hotels will take away continuous duty overnights (a regional staple), and also duty day limits will shrink depending on how many legs you fly per day (another regional staple--lots of legs per day). That will make regional costs GO UP. They may want larger planes (100 seaters) to compensate, but mainline scope will stay strong because of the lack of leverage management has because of recent high profits. Sorry, you are mistaken.


And speeking of trying something new, how about you go look up some facts before you type. It sure would be nice.

You are correct, the Majors will have more retirements than the Discount Carriers. However, they will also have less total Pilots as they focus their efforts where the Money is: Long Haul with bigger airplanes, not competing against the Discount carriers.

Oh by the way, when you attempt to insult someone, how about at least getting your spelling correct (speeking is not a word, speaking is however, and I think that is what you meant).

 

[bluefin]

can't wait to see you parked in the unemployment line. Your job is gone. You're not getting sh!t. I hope you enjoy losing your home, your wife, everything you have worked for. Hopefully just in time for christmas. Wait...that's what happened to the united and cal furloughees. May it happen to you too, merry xmas!

For all the other pilots on this forum, this is just a special xmas wish for nerjdriver. May karma find him at the worst possible time and ruin his life. I hope to have the opportunity to spit in your face as you are laying homeless in the gutter cradling a bottle of 20/20 on xmas eve.

Ahhhhh, now that felt gooooood.

amen brother

 

[Yuppyguppy]

You are correct, the Majors will have more retirements than the Discount Carriers. However, they will also have less total Pilots as they focus their efforts where the Money is: Long Haul with bigger airplanes, not competing against the Discount carriers.

Oh by the way, when you attempt to insult someone, how about at least getting your spelling correct (speeking is not a word, speaking is however, and I think that is what you meant).

You are such an incompetent teenager. You absolute fool. You will get nothing and we will take it back from idiots like you. Do you really think UAL, DAL and AMR are going to shrink and do you really think the mainline pilots will let teens such as yourself continue to do our flying? Go put your head back in the sand.

 

[Heavy Set]

You are correct, the Majors will have more retirements than the Discount Carriers. However, they will also have less total Pilots as they focus their efforts where the Money is: Long Haul with bigger airplanes, not competing against the Discount carriers.

Oh by the way, when you attempt to insult someone, how about at least getting your spelling correct (speeking is not a word, speaking is however, and I think that is what you meant).

How do you fill up those bigger airplanes at the hubs? With RJs only? Places like ATL use 757s like RJs to fill up all of those international planes going far away. Everytime I fly into ATL I am amazed at how many 757s there are. Add MD88s, A320s, and 737s, and the place is a zoo, with medium and large planes. Then add RJs, and the place is crazy busy.

 

[johnsonrod]

You are correct, the Majors will have more retirements than the Discount Carriers. However, they will also have less total Pilots as they focus their efforts where the Money is: Long Haul with bigger airplanes, not competing against the Discount carriers.

Oh by the way, when you attempt to insult someone, how about at least getting your spelling correct (speeking is not a word, speaking is however, and I think that is what you meant).

Yes, you got me on a spelling error. I still disagree with you about the Majors giving all domestic feed to the regionals. The regionals are slowly being dismantled, and new FAA rules for hiring and rest/fatigue will cause even more problems for us. But, that may mean more hiring at the Majors to compensate for Regional inefficiencies, and I am all for that. Yes, the Majors will make a lot of money on the uptick of International flying, but they won't allow smaller planes to take the feed for their largest hubs. You somehow think that the Regional airlines have the ability to choose the flying we want. Nope, that is up to the Major itself, and that can be controlled by scope clauses, and they will be stricter when new contracts become enacted thanks to section 6 negotiations being worked on at almost every Major currently. I think Delta starts their negotiations soon, and the others are in negotiations now. The first one to watch is the UAL/CAL expedited arbitration that is due by the end of this month dealing with 70 seaters flying out of IAH. We all know the new UAL CEO is trying to get around the CAL scope clause, which is still valid since a new joint contract between UAL/CAL hasn't even been finalized, and they still have seperate certificates at this time. It should be fun to watch regardless. On my part, I just want out. Fingers crossed!

 

[V1rowt8]

Unfortunately until we,the pilots, are able to have some real leverage to negotiate and enforce our contracts it will be difficult to demand anything. Airline management,with the exception of a few, does not give a damn what the pilots think they should have. It is all about bottom line and will continue to do whatever they think they can get away with. If management thinks it is cost effective to use regional carriers for their domestic feed, that is what they will try to do and already are. Contract "negotiations" have not been negotiated in good faith by management for years!! Management has manipulated the RLA to their advantage dragging out negotiations as long as possible and we cannot do much to stop it, currently. Back on topic, I hope CAL/UAL pilots win the day but I have a bad feeling that they unfortunately have the cards stacked against them, as usual.

 

[BOX OFFICE]

What will affect the Majors the most, is what just took place at Southwest.

They use to just fly into outlying airports, then they started moving into the main hub airports, like Denver. Then they buy AirTran, who never did avoid the main airports, so now Southwest will be going head to head with even more Major Airline routes. Combine them with the JetBlue's of the world, and the Majors will simply be unable to compete with their cost structures in the domestic market. So where will they look to make money? International operations only. You will then have the larger Regionals doing more and more of the domestic work of the Majors, because the Majors will no longer be able to make money in the domestic market competing head to head with the Southwests of the world.

The end result: Less Mainline Pilot jobs, more Discount Carrier Pilot jobs and more Regional Pilot Jobs.

Its happening folks. No Union Contract provisions will stop it.

If one were starting out today, I'd say their best bet would be to try and get on one of the Southwests or JetBlue's of the world. Them, or one of the Larger Regionals.

The Majors are going to be reducing their overall Pilot population in the coming years, in my opinion. Scope clauses will not stop it. Its simple economics.

Has anyone noticed that SWA is about where Delta was in the early 80s and Delta is about where Pan Am was in the early 80s?

 

[SFR]

You guys worry too much about stuff that you can't control. I suggest canceling this account and just relaxing and bang chicks.

 

[Freedom]

I hope the CAL/UAL Pilots are successful, but....

What leverage will all the Major Pilot groups have over Scope, really?

The only legal leverage is a Strike, and I just don't think any Pilot group out there is going to Strike over Scope. Personally, I don't think Major Pilots will put it all on the line over Scope.

You can't get a Management group to agree to a Scope clause just because you want them too. It has to be worth it to them.

When you look at the cost advantages of flying around a 90-110 seat RJ, over flying a 737, Management is going to try to shift that flying, have no doubt.

In fact, even if the Arbitrator determines the CAL Scope clause is presently being violated, if the legal costs to continue violating it are less than the money saved by farming out their business to the Regionals, what do you think UAL/CAL Management will do?

The problem with us Pilots is we have an keen sense of Right and Wrong. Management does not; they just follow the Money.

If its more cost effective to fly in violation of the Scope, they will do it. The only way to stop them is by a Work action by the Mainline Pilots, in this case, the UAL/CAL Pilots.

And I personally don't believe the UAL/CAL Pilots have the stones to do anything about it.

I sincerely hope I am wrong. Because if the Mainline CAL Pilots let Management get away with this, it will be open season on the Scopes at all the Majors.

I truly believe the UAL/CAL Pilots (not the starving regional pilots) have the future of the industry in their hands.

Will they have the balls to stop this action by their Management, we will see. I hope you guys do.

 

[V1rowt8]

Well put freedom!!

 

[luckytohaveajob]

SCOPE is a tough fight.

And an even tougher fight for a SCAB union. CAL ALPA cannot even get a pay raise after a concessionary contract has expired for two years. How is it ever going to lead the industry in something so important?

 

[Skyflyin]

What leverage will all the Major Pilot groups have over Scope, really?

The only legal leverage is a Strike, and I just don't think any Pilot group out there is going to Strike over Scope. Personally, I don't think Major Pilots will put it all on the line over Scope.

A full blown strike is not the only leverage. In fact, I believe many are correct that the President would not allow an airline the size of the combined United to fully strike. Instead, I see us doing something similar to the CHAOS campaign of the flight attendants. Strike only certain portions of the airline say, all Europe flights one week, then all Pacific flights the next, then Latin and South America flights next. That would not be a total shut down of the airline and still be legal after we have been released by the NMB.

As far as Scope, every pilot should be concerned about it. If much of our 737 flying is shifted to the regionals, as United's was, and we lose the bottom third of the seniority list, then everyone moves down. If your not fighting for Scope, you would end up losing money even if the contract included raises since you would be downgraded to the right seat or to a lesser airplane more than likely.

If a major airline pilot is not willing to put it all on the line for Scope then they need to get their head out of sand and look around.

 

[jetflier]

Strikes work.
As a NWA guy in 1998, our strike worked in our favor.

BUT, it takes balls. Period

 

[bigshooter107]

The new asa contract with Ua/Co for exspress jet flying is locked in for ten years with each airframe. When the 50 seat leases expire they are slated to be replaced with 70 seat aircraft. Those airframes and jobs have already been lost, does it not make sense to allow the company to have a first class product and make more money on the small lift feed?

 

[sleeves]

The new asa contract with Ua/Co for exspress jet flying is locked in for ten years with each airframe. When the 50 seat leases expire they are slated to be replaced with 70 seat aircraft. Those airframes and jobs have already been lost, does it not make sense to allow the company to have a first class product and make more money on the small lift feed?

Not arguing the merits of the equipment. The company can fly them as long as pilots on our seniority list fly them. They want to replace the 50's with 70's, what is next 70's for 100's. Bring them on property at rates they are being flown at now.

 

[doh]

It is not a joke. I am tired of bad pilots. Stupid accidents happened like this one because those people should have chosen another career path.

I saw it all the time at the regionals, I would say 50% of the pilot staff could not deal with a real emergency, 50% of them would make stupid mistakes on a daily basis. When they are paired together the odds of dumb mistakes doubles.

I am not saying I am perfect, I make mistakes too. But my daily mistakes would be things like breaking sterile cockpit, not doing all of the waypoint accuracy checks accross the Atlantic (who cares btw if you do them, just look at the GPS if it is working), forgetting to switch to tower at the sign in "LAX" (I may remember 100' past or so).... stuff that is not that big of a deal..
When if comes to situational awareness and actually doing what is important, flying the plane, I am at about a 99%. Oh and BTW, you can read the newspaper and know what is going on, unless you don't have any skill. I know there are some geeks that can't do that because they have to pay attention all the time...they are nervous every flight... My advice to them is change career, they were not meant to be a pilot.

I really get tired of the union protecting these pilots. I think they should be fired. I had a sim partner once at a regional that got 5 extra sim lessons, ridiculous!! I was finishing up sim #3 and he was still on sim #1, couldn't do a raw data takeoff, kept crashing.

Do you want your family or yourself on his plane, with 2 pilots like that?


Look at the Comair crash in Lexington....more bad pilots. You may say "that could happen to any of us"... I hate to tell you, NOT REALLY... good pilots would figure it out anything short of a unrecoverable mechanical issue.

Bad pilot crashes:

1) Air Florida
2) American in Cali
3) Air France in 2009
4) Most regional accidents.... AE in Indiana & RDU, Comair in DTW, Jetstream that crashed in Hibing & the other one up north in 2004. ACA in CMH (1995 I think), Clownair in LEX

5) and many more..


We need to demand good pilot hiring practices in order to demand higher wages!!! As long as we have goofy characters amongst us we will always get treated goofy by management.

I'm so glad you are able to stand in such absolute judgement of your fellows! All from the comfort of your computer screen! And you are 99% solid! I know this because you are telling me! What other proof could I possibly need!?! Someplace in this thread there is a reference to karma.

 

[bigshooter107]

Not arguing the merits of the equipment. The company can fly them as long as pilots on our seniority list fly them. They want to replace the 50's with 70's, what is next 70's for 100's. Bring them on property at rates they are being flown at now.

The company is not going to break a long term contract to make pilots happy. Lock the scope in for the duration of these contracts and bring them under mainline senority later. Just seems like this is a distraction from getting the best possible pat and work rules at mainline.

 

[bigshooter107]

Pay I mean

 

[Hvy]

What do you want to wager on that Gramps? You are being sold a bill of goods by your mec. They don't care much about the scope, only what that scope is good to trade for. Kiss it goodbye. Widebody folks can count on a raise. Narrow body pukes can count on getting the shaft. Hopefully you dont get furloughed.

Obviously, you know nothing. Start looking for another career. Your RJ job is going to be gone over the next few years.

 

[jonjuan]

Not arguing the merits of the equipment. The company can fly them as long as pilots on our seniority list fly them. They want to replace the 50's with 70's, what is next 70's for 100's. Bring them on property at rates they are being flown at now.

There was a good article posted some time back about this maneuver. It said that there's no way management will fall for this as they know they'll have to pay for it in the future when rates are brought up. They really are smarter than most people believe or want to give them credit for as they have the $$ and resources to protect their ATM, unfortunately. The battle cry always seems to be "management is a bunch of idiots." They seem to know what they are doing, however. Simple reality.