UAL Pilots get TSA'ed in MIA

[Reebo]

I'm still amazed at both the Northwest crew (years ago) and the AWA crew. How in the hell do you drink until 5 am for a 10 am show?

not to hard when you're an alcoholic, in denial, with a high tolorance for alcohol. most that drink like this only stop when caught , they die, or through some sort of intervention.

 

[Chappysan]

Radarlove your argument is completely incoherent, at points self-contadictory, and ultimately useless. Good luck to you.

 

[Ty Webb]

I'm not sure where all this is coming from. Certainly it does happen, on rare occaision, because we see some guys getting caught from time to time, but we are talking miniscule numbers.

I like to enjoy my layovers with the rest of the crew and just don't see anyone getting that polluted, with the exception of a few F/A's. I have never seen a pilot drink inside of the 8 hour rule, or show up smelling of booze or seemingly intoxicated, and I hope I never do.

 

[smokey999]

"Here's the interesting part--these guys don't seem to have the yarbles to do something assertive, like throwing the offensive passenger off, instead they choose the passive route--"FINE! I'LL JUST GO TAKE A DRUG TEST HOW DO YOU LIKE THEM APPLES?"

Let me get this straight. Passenger accuses pilot of drinking. Pilot kicks passenger off. Pilot flies trip...all better. Your logic is skewed? The only professional thing to do if someone is INSISTING they saw you drink, is to relieve yourself of duty, and clear it up ASAP. Like someone else posted, you have no clue how many others may have heard, and now feel extremely uncomfortable. Anothe sidenote, if you just boot the passenger and fly your leg, it could be percieved you are just trying to "buy time" to get the alcohol out of your system, especially if it is a longer flight.

 

[jettypeguy]

Eagleflip-

I agree with your post 100%. I am not sure why we defend this insidious lifestyle.

One other thought though: Does anyone know if there has ever been an airline accident/incident wherein it was discovered the proximate cause was consumption of alcohol or drugs by the flight crew?

A few years ago a Continental Express/Expressjet EMB145 Captain operated a flight into houston while high on Cocaine. His FO turned him in. Needless to say it was his last flight...

 

[Eagleflip]

Reebo:

not to hard when you're an alcoholic, in denial, with a high tolorance for alcohol. most that drink like this only stop when caught , they die, or through some sort of intervention.

Reebo, exactly correct. Most high functioning alcoholic pilots don't abuse the 8 hour rule. They simply drink themselves slightly silly during their layover and then take 8, 9, or more hours off to theoretically prepare themselves for the flight. Trouble is, their tolerance is so high that they have a BAC of epic proportions. 9 hours without drinking does not sober them up--it only gives them a false sense of security.

Another interesting point that Reebo brought up: alcoholism is a 100% fatal disease if left untreated.

Finally, and on the positive side, pilots and physicians have an astounding recovery rate. About 92% of all pilots and Docs that go through the formal recovery process get sober and stay that way for the rest of their careers. Why? Both groups are motivated to keep their careers, are extremely well monitored, and have support mechanisms in place. Compared to straight AA--who rates their normal sobriety rate (with no relapse) at 10%--this ongoing recovery rate is nothing short of phenominal.

 

[Dizel8]

Radarlove,

I doubt it is passive agressive, probably more of a CYA move. If you had a passenger, who accused you of/ or insinuated you had been drinking and heaven forbid even the slightest thing aviation wise should happen of the plane....Well, you can see the headline already:"Passenger of incident plane said pilot was drunk, TSA and the airline did nothing"!

Of course, you will not get tested untill hours later, at which point you, since you never drank in the first place, tested squeky clean. Now, even though you acted as a professional, do you think that will make the uphill battle easier?

 

[radarlove]

"Let me get this straight. Passenger accuses pilot of drinking. Pilot kicks passenger off. Pilot flies trip...all better. Your logic is skewed? The only professional thing to do if someone is INSISTING they saw you drink, is to relieve yourself of duty, and clear it up ASAP.

I'm simply arguing facts. Go back and look at the link I posted. The drug/alcohol testing procedures was set up to SPECIFICALLY avoid this type of situation. There is NO DOT PROCEDURE to simply "get a test" to "prove you're sober". The only times (other than random) you can get a test are 1) pre-employment, 2) reasonable suspicion (by a trained individual, this must be reported) and 3) post accident.

Where does some passenger making a joke fit in? Quick answer: it doesn't. So the protections that are in place are being destroyed by petty, petulant pilots who feel the need to swagger. Back to the Jet Blue guy that got tested because of a passenger comment, I'll ask again, "Tested by who?" it wasn't a DOT test, unless a trained employee was reasonably suspicious that he was under the influence and coutenanced the test.

My comment about kicking the passenger off was toungue-in-cheek, for all of the "professionalism" talk around here, I doubt any of us have the company-mandated right to kick a passenger off for one rude comment. So what's the next step? If you can't kick the witty guy off, then, fine, I'll just delay the flight by requesting an alcohol test. I'm still wondering who gives it, by the way. Even if your contractor does give it, it's meaningless to the DOT, since it's not part of their procedures.

Who cares who overheard? Who cares is there is a reporter on board? Give me ONE EXAMPLE of a passenger saying "I hope you haven't been drinking" that turned into a page-one story on USA Today. The correct answer is, "We never joke about that", with a stern stare.

If some yahoo insists you've been drinking, then the station should bring in a trained employee who will then evaluate you. If he/she thinks you are under the influence, they will direct a "reasonable suspicion" test. If they don't, you don't get one. End of story. If you want to play games and get one yourself, fill me in on exactly what problem that solves? The DOT doesn't want you to have one. The company doesn't want you to have one. The passengers certainly don't want a cancelled flight.

We're very good at being petulant in this industry.

Before arguing further, PLEASE go back and read the DOT regulations as pertaining to pilot drug and alcohol testing. After reading that, show me the section that says that you are under some sort of obligation to clear your name if someone makes a joke.

You aren't. The regs are set up specifically to protect you (us) from this sort of behavior. Why ruin it? You don't bust regs on purpose generally, why bust this one?

 

[NTS ALL 4]

Beer time!

I think you all have beaten this thread to death. Let's talk about this over a cold one. It' always happy hour somewhere in the world.

Cheers, mates!

 

[Swede]

I'm simply arguing facts. Go back and look at the link I posted. The drug/alcohol testing procedures was set up to SPECIFICALLY avoid this type of situation. There is NO DOT PROCEDURE to simply "get a test" to "prove you're sober".

Not really... it's actually quite easy. And it happened to a friend. A FAM accused him of being intoxicated. He immediately left the area, got himself to a hospital, and had the exact same blood work done at the hospital which would be executed if a cop dragged in a drunk motorist. The hospital personnel knew exactly what needed to be done... chain of custody, witnesses, etc. There is NO requirement for LE to be present.

The test results would stand up in any court or civil proeceeding.

Watch out for FAMs, they aren't necessarily your buds.

 

[bluejuice787]

Radarlove is correct. Try to remove the emotion for a moment. Even the previous analogy of the FAM accusing the pilot of being intoxicated does not matter. If the FAM believes the pilot is intoxicated then he/she must report this to the proper auth. As Radarlove stated, a trained representative will then asess the pilot to determine if a "reasonable suspision" drug/alcohol test should be administerd.

Someones comments mean jack unless they are trained to detect and administer the DOT test.

As pilots or any other human with contact with the public you are going to be the subject of someones stupidity. Unless the PAX is simply belligerent don't give credence to the comments.

In my twelve years of flying PAX I have never witnessed someone continue a joke when I told them it was inappropriate. I either received an appology or silence. Either way I am happy. Perhaps we should all consider have slightly thicker skin.

My personal barometer for professionalism is this: Less drama= Greater professional.

 

[Swede]

Radarlove is correct. Try to remove the emotion for a moment. Even the previous analogy of the FAM accusing the pilot of being intoxicated does not matter. If the FAM believes the pilot is intoxicated then he/she must report this to the proper auth.

It's not an analogy. Like the TSA, the FAM did in fact call the cops. My friend passed the cops on his way out the door. Neither FAMs nor TSA have arrest or detention authority in these cases. While the FAM tried to talk my friend into "staying put", he had no power to detain him and could not prevent him from taking himself to the hospital.

"Reasonable suspicion"... what is reasonable? TSA are not trained to determine inebriation. Maybe they didn't like the fact that you scowled when they shoved their wand inside your pants. Maybe they were bored.

 

[radarlove]

What your friend did was way out of line. He should have waited for a trained company representative who then would have taken the next step (proper DOT test or more likely, no test). Walking away from the situation is stupid.

Unless he was drunk.

BTW, the "hospital" test is meaningless, it doesn't count for anything as far as your license is concerned.

 

[Swede]

Both the union and the company said he did everything exactly right.

 

[ClarkW]

While boarding a flt at my current company, a passenger said "you guys havent been drinking have you?". Company policy at the time required the entire crew to go the local hospital for an alcohol test. The flight departed about 2 hours late. That policy was straight out of the FOM, but has since been changed.