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UAL Pilots get TSA'ed in MIA

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I don't have my flight ops manual with me so I have to go by memory. As I recall, you don't have an option to refuse- well, you DO, but if you do, it is taken as a admission of guilt (or no contest). At a large station like MIA, there are certainly UAL personnel who are responsible to handle both the employee and the situation and get the proper tests administered and monitored. It's only fair to all participants. As far as breath tests go, it was informative (as well as funny) to see "MythBusters" try to fool the breathalizer (they couldn't).

You are all correct when you state that you'd WANT the test to establish your innocence. Also, as we're all aware, very seldom does any news reporting agency get the entire story entirely correct. There are a lot of places here where factual errors are possible- one glaring one is that UAL "suspended" the pilot. They didn't "suspend" anybody.

As Eagleflip said, statistically, there are going to be pilots who have problems with alcohol or drugs. The amazing thing is that in this day of being "kinder and gentler" with numerous intervention and confidentiality programs, that pilots will endure the lifestyle and it's inherent risks by continuing down a dead-end street.

It will be interesting to see what comes of this whole story.

Oh, as an interesting aside, a fellow pilot once told me that a flight attendant came to the cockpit telling of a passenger who was concerned about the safety of the flight because "they had seen the pilot drinking a beer". You can imagine the captain's response and all of the emotions. He went back and met with the passenger and told them that it was a pretty serious accusation (and other passengers had heard the charge) they were making. How did they come to that conclusion? The passenger was steadfast. "I know you were, because I saw you myself as I got on the airplane. I looked right through the window and saw you had a beer on your table." The captain proceeded to tell them that they were looking at the first class section of the aircraft- NOT the cockpit! Then he demanded to have a breath test, which was negative, and went on to fly the trip- after throwing the passenger off the plane.
 
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EagleFlip said:

"As for pilots reported by the TSA as having alcohol on their breath that were drinking, the list appears to be increasing. I have no problem with that. If a "wand monkey" (your term, not mine) keeps an inebriated pilot out of the cockpit, great. Frankly, anyone who would argue the opposite simply isn't thinking clearly."

I have a number of problems with this Eagleflip...call me an unabashed wand monkey hater but...

Who guards the guardians? To wit, what training does your average TSA screener have in sensing the proverbial drunk pilot? Common sense, inituition, what? Considering the ramifications to the accused, is that level of "training" a sufficent reed on which to rest your career?

We have multi-person crews for a reason. Quite honestly, the other pilot, cabin attendants, ramp personnel that the accused will come in contact all have a legal, plus personal obligation to call the accused out. Considering the TSA track record of incompetence and featherbedding, are increased powers for their employee's really a good idea. As was noted, hammering the pilot, guilty or not, is usually the order of the day.

At what point do we have a TSA minder just come with us on all layovers? I mean, since obviously we have no expectation of privacy, then where is the cutoff? Breathalyzer before each flight, each day. One a month?

Drug testing was bad solution to a nonexistant problem. Do pilots drink? Yes. More than they should. Probably. Has it contributed negatively to aviation safety in the U.S.? IMHO, not demonstrably.
 
bluejuice787 said:
One other thought though: Does anyone know if there has ever been an airline accident/incident wherein it was discovered the proximate cause was consumption of alcohol or drugs by the flight crew?

I don't know about "proximate cause", but the company I was flying for at the time...Trans-Colorado Airlines, operating as "Continental Express" through a wet-lease agreement with Rocky Mountain Airways, had an accident on approach to Durango in the mid 80s that resulted in the fatality of both crewmembers and a number of the passengers. The Captain was found to have cocaine metabolites in his system, and while he was not directly under the influence at the time of the accident, they determined that fatique related to his recent use was a contributing factor. This accident was a major catalyst in the DOT instituing the drug and alcohol testing program we now are all subject to.
 
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I thought that Elizabeth Dole led to the testing program we are all subject to. . . . Oh, no, wait, she led to the development of Viagra.

Poor Bob.
 
UAL78 said:
Oh, as an interesting aside, a fellow pilot once told me that a flight attendant came to the cockpit telling of a passenger who was concerned about the safety of the flight because "they had seen the pilot drinking a beer". You can imagine the captain's response and all of the emotions. He went back and met with the passenger and told them that it was a pretty serious accusation (and other passengers had heard the charge) they were making. How did they come to that conclusion? The passenger was steadfast. "I know you were, because I saw you myself as I got on the airplane. I looked right through the window and saw you had a beer on your table." The captain proceeded to tell them that they were looking at the first class section of the aircraft- NOT the cockpit! Then he demanded to have a breath test, which was negative, and went on to fly the trip- after throwing the passenger off the plane.

It's always interesting to me how over-reactive UAL pilots can be. Why take a breath test? Why kick the passenger off?

While I don't really doubt that the story is true, I also don't see any way to get a breath test just because you want one. If there is no "reasonable suspicion", (again, by a trained employee, not some pax) then there is no test. That's to keep drug/alcohol testing from becoming a weapon in personal disputes.
 
AceCrackshot said:
EagleFlip said:

"As for pilots reported by the TSA as having alcohol on their breath that were drinking, the list appears to be increasing. I have no problem with that. If a "wand monkey" (your term, not mine) keeps an inebriated pilot out of the cockpit, great. Frankly, anyone who would argue the opposite simply isn't thinking clearly."

I have a number of problems with this Eagleflip...call me an unabashed wand monkey hater but...

Who guards the guardians? To wit, what training does your average TSA screener have in sensing the proverbial drunk pilot? Common sense, inituition, what? Considering the ramifications to the accused, is that level of "training" a sufficent reed on which to rest your career?

We have multi-person crews for a reason. Quite honestly, the other pilot, cabin attendants, ramp personnel that the accused will come in contact all have a legal, plus personal obligation to call the accused out. Considering the TSA track record of incompetence and featherbedding, are increased powers for their employee's really a good idea. As was noted, hammering the pilot, guilty or not, is usually the order of the day.

At what point do we have a TSA minder just come with us on all layovers? I mean, since obviously we have no expectation of privacy, then where is the cutoff? Breathalyzer before each flight, each day. One a month?

Drug testing was bad solution to a nonexistant problem. Do pilots drink? Yes. More than they should. Probably. Has it contributed negatively to aviation safety in the U.S.? IMHO, not demonstrably.

I believe EagleFlip made a good arguement. I also believe that the TSA, despite it's weaknesses, has trained adequately enough for this scenario: If you smell alcohol, report it. The only ramifications a pilot will face are those equivalent to the level of his responsibily. And don't count on crewmembers to save the day, especially when they're the drinking buddies from the night before.
 
It's time we start policing ourselves on this alcohol misuse issue. It may be embarrasing but, if you see a fellow pilot at the bar loading up, maybe a discrete word might make a difference. The response might be to go f yourself or maybe, though unlikely, thanks for your interest. We have a situation here where everybody wants to be a hero in their supervisor's eyes. Popping a pilot, whether real or imagined, by a TSA screener, may put a notch in their belt, but it's up to us to prevent that from happening. If it does happen, demand an alcohol screening or leave your ID at the door. I've walked off a flight for an unfounded alcohol misuse accusation, got tested, negative results, got paid for the trip, and lunch on the company. If you think you're anywhere close to not being legal, call off sick. Just don't let anybody get us. Too many wanna be hero TSA, LEO and Judges out there making our jobs tougher everyday.
 
Why in the world would you "get yourself tested" and walk off a flight? Are you an ex UAL guy? And who tested you? Under what auspices?

Again, if you are not under "reasonable suspicion", there is no route to take under the DOT program to just go get a test. If you did, then you (and your company, and the testing contractor) violated the FAA/DOT regulations. Nice.

Now, I'm sure it made you fell all better to inconvenience a whole plane of people, plus your airline, plus the guy that had to replace you, but again, why? You weren't in any danger, you job wasn't in any danger and by storming off, all you did was look like a primadonna.

Why not a "We just don't joke about that sir."

Or, "If you are not comfortable sir, here is our customer service representative who will take care of your concerns and rebook you on another flight."

There--now the only person inconvenienced is the jerk, not the customers and your employer.

If you're curious, look here.
 
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Why not, I got paid for it and the pax who made the accusation got a visit from corp. security. Also, you don't know who overheard the accusation. If it was a NY Times or USAToday reporter, you could be front page news the next day. Three things you don't say boarding a plane; Hijack, Bomb, and is the pilot drunk. It's time we stand up for ourselves. It seems that as an industry for the most part, nobody else will. BTW, the flight was delayed for about 20 mins. and a reserve Capt. flew the trip. But if you want to tolerate the continuing disrespect we continue to get as airline pilots, that's your choice. No primadonna about it. Just retaining our dignity.
 
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