UAL Pilots get TSA'ed in MIA

[Eagleflip]

This isn't about TSA...

Sorry, guys, but I have to take the other side of this argument.

Each year in the US, crewmembers either test positive on random alcohol/drug tests. How many? There were 9 that tested positive for alcohol in 2001, 22 in 2002, and 9 in 2003...but also in 2003, 22 tested positive for drugs! (these numbers come directly from Dr. Audie Davis' presentation at the September HIMS conference in Denver)

Yep...we're talking about professional pilots who know they are subject to DOT testing, yet they still manage to blow over .03999 or test positive for drugs. So, you tell me...is there a problem? The most conservative (lowest) estimate for alcoholism rates in the US is 5%. And the US has over 200,000 ATPs, the majority of which are flying professionally. You do the math.

In other words, do you want your wife, daughter or father to fly on an aircraft piloted by a drunk? Do you want your company's future riding on their drug-altered proficiency and judgement? Of course you don't, and the industry has done a lot to offer rehabilitation and help for those afflicted with substance abuse. Ask your airline HIMS representative...

I see this thread as two distinct issues. The first is a natural railing against the TSA, who we perceive as an organization hell bent to make our life more difficult. Well, that train has left the station. They do make our life somewhat tougher, but that's an innevitiable byproduct of their necessary job. Are they legally allowed to detect, detain or report pilots with alcohol on their breath? Yes they are. That aspect was upheld in Florida earlier this year. Is it correct for them to do so? Well, it begs the question...how many pilots have been accused of drinking by the TSA but were not actually doing so? I don't have numbers for you, but I think they are low. Perhaps you can shed some light on that aspect.

As for pilots reported by the TSA as having alcohol on their breath that were drinking, the list appears to be increasing. I have no problem with that. If a "wand monkey" (your term, not mine) keeps an inebriated pilot out of the cockpit, great. Frankly, anyone who would argue the opposite simply isn't thinking clearly.

The other big issue here is our natural inclination to push drinking under the rug; professionals don't have problems like that, right? No one wants to address it, so it is easier to vent against the TSA, an organization we (at times) view as somewhat less than professional.

The reality? We have to cope with alcohol and drug abuse--that's what each airline's HIMS program is for.

I don't blame TSA...if they're wrong, a simple breathylizer will prove the pilot's innocence. Problem is, we're not always innocent.

 

[Dumbledore]

Each year in the US, crewmembers either test positive on random alcohol/drug tests. How many? There were 9 that tested positive for alcohol in 2001, 22 in 2002, and 9 in 2003...but also in 2003, 22 tested positive for drugs! (these numbers come directly from Dr. Audie Davis' presentation at the September HIMS conference in Denver)

Now THAT'S kind of interesting. For about the first five years or so of the random drug testing program the positive test rate was lower than the statistical FALSE positive rate. In other words, there WASN'T a problem that the tests could reliably detect.

Interesting indeed. I wonder what's changed. The tests have either gotten better (not very likely) or for some reason there is a heightened sense that getting away with it is possible - that accountability can't be enforced.

 

[Midnight Mike]

Source?

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-1023pilot,0,7173673.story?coll=sfla-home-headlines

United pilot questioned after security screeners smell alcohol

October 23, 2005, 5:24 PM EDT


MIAMI -- A United Airlines pilot was taken into custody at Miami International Airport on Sunday after security screeners smelled alcohol as he prepared to board a flight to Washington Dulles International Airport, authorities said.

The incident appeared similar to a 2002 incident where a drunk America West pilot and co-pilot were arrested as they also boarded a flight in Miami. They were sentenced to prison last summer.

The United pilot was boarding Flight 1404 for a scheduled 9 a.m. departure when Transportation Security Administration screeners thought they smelled alcohol on the pilot, said Kathleen Bergen, a Federal Aviation Administration spokeswoman.

TSA spokesman Nico Melendez said officers from the Miami-Dade County Police Department, which investigates most crimes at the airport, took the pilot into custody. Police officials they could not yet provide details, including whether the pilot has been charged.

Bergen said the FAA is ``conducting an investigation which would be separate from any investigation law enforcement would do.''

United Airlines had no immediate comment.

In July, two America West pilots who got behind the controls after a night of heavy drinking at a sports bar three years ago were sentenced to prison after they were found guilty of operating an aircraft while drunk.

Thomas Cloyd, 47, of Peoria, Ariz., and co-pilot Christopher Hughes, 44, of Leander, Texas, were drunk when they settled into the cockpit of a Phoenix-bound jetliner. The plane had pushed away from the gate and was being towed toward the runway when it was called back after screeners reported smelling alcohol on their breath.

Cloyd, who had been on probation for an alcohol-related offense just months before his arrest, was sentenced to five years in prison. Hughes was ordered to serve 2 1/2 years behind bars.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

The pilot was removed from the cockpit and was suspended by UAL pending an internal investigation. He was not arrested and no breath test was done, it was FLT 1404 DC bound. 6+40 on the delay after all was said and done. TSA alerted police and all here we are.....

ONE pilot, not "two".

Unless I was guilty I would have demanded a test be done, just to clear my name.

How do you investigate this properly without a test????

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Unless I was guilty I would have demanded a test be done, just to clear my name.

How do you investigate this properly without a test????

I was wondering the same thing. If anyone even suggested that I had alchohol on my breath or had been drinking within either FAA or company limits I'd insist on a test. Better to remove yourself from any possibiility of suspicion of wrongdoing that way.

 

[bluejuice787]

Eagleflip-

I agree with your post 100%. I am not sure why we defend this insidious lifestyle.

One other thought though: Does anyone know if there has ever been an airline accident/incident wherein it was discovered the proximate cause was consumption of alcohol or drugs by the flight crew?

 

[AA717driver]

It may be that the pilot requested a blood test (not urine--my wife was imprisioned unjustly last year due to a false positive on the urine test. The breathalyzer said 0.000, too). That's what I would do.

Take the blood test primarily, to be absolutely sure the breathalyzer didn't read wrong (you get a false positive on that one and you are fighting an uphill battle). Secondly, you aren't going to be able to get back on the plane after being hauled off by the cops and keep any pax aboard.

Once you have the appearance of guilt, you will not operate that aircraft.

On the issue of TSA innocence, yes, statistically, there are some people out there flying drunk. Is it statistically reasonable that it's ALWAYS Miami TSA'ers who 'sniff' out the drunks? That's what set off my warning flags.TC

 

[350DRIVER]

Unless I was guilty I would have demanded a test be done, just to clear my name.

How do you investigate this properly without a test????

I assume (may be a bad assumption) that you can't other than checking possible bar receipts that may or may not be time stamped, video surveillance, or something else a long those lines if applicable. I was a tad surprised one was not administered but for the reason(s) of possibly registering a "false positive" maybe it was refused by the pilot?. He probably requested a blood test to be done elsewhere which the media didn't find "news worthy" enough to run with it and include it in the story/report. I think many variables were left out of this story which will come out in time, not enough to make a fair, honest, and unbiased opinion or guess here.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Breathalyzers can be inaccurate. If they seriously suspected substance abuse, the Pilot probably got a ride to a nearby facility for a urine test. If I was in the Pilot's shoes, I would want at least two of the most accurate tests (blood tests) money can buy, immediately.

Lets hope this turns out OK for the pilots. The America West guys lives' were ruined by Florida's overzealous prosecutors who like the press that this kind of case generates.

AA717 Driver: Did they hold the person responsible for your wife's detainment responsible for their false arrest?

 

[radarlove]

Blood tests aren't an option, at least if you're talking FAA/DOT. The DOT rules are very specific. If a credible reason exists ("reasonable suspicion" as determined by a trained person) than it's breathalyzer city.

But that's for company/DOT/FAA tests. The cops probably have their own rules about when a breath or blood (or urine, I guess, if you believe the previous poster, but I've never heard of urine being used for alcohol testing). Also, the guy might have refused a test. Who knows?

I'm still amazed at both the Northwest crew (years ago) and the AWA crew. How in the hell do you drink until 5 am for a 10 am show?

 

[banned username 1]

I don't have my flight ops manual with me so I have to go by memory. As I recall, you don't have an option to refuse- well, you DO, but if you do, it is taken as a admission of guilt (or no contest). At a large station like MIA, there are certainly UAL personnel who are responsible to handle both the employee and the situation and get the proper tests administered and monitored. It's only fair to all participants. As far as breath tests go, it was informative (as well as funny) to see "MythBusters" try to fool the breathalizer (they couldn't).

You are all correct when you state that you'd WANT the test to establish your innocence. Also, as we're all aware, very seldom does any news reporting agency get the entire story entirely correct. There are a lot of places here where factual errors are possible- one glaring one is that UAL "suspended" the pilot. They didn't "suspend" anybody.

As Eagleflip said, statistically, there are going to be pilots who have problems with alcohol or drugs. The amazing thing is that in this day of being "kinder and gentler" with numerous intervention and confidentiality programs, that pilots will endure the lifestyle and it's inherent risks by continuing down a dead-end street.

It will be interesting to see what comes of this whole story.

Oh, as an interesting aside, a fellow pilot once told me that a flight attendant came to the cockpit telling of a passenger who was concerned about the safety of the flight because "they had seen the pilot drinking a beer". You can imagine the captain's response and all of the emotions. He went back and met with the passenger and told them that it was a pretty serious accusation (and other passengers had heard the charge) they were making. How did they come to that conclusion? The passenger was steadfast. "I know you were, because I saw you myself as I got on the airplane. I looked right through the window and saw you had a beer on your table." The captain proceeded to tell them that they were looking at the first class section of the aircraft- NOT the cockpit! Then he demanded to have a breath test, which was negative, and went on to fly the trip- after throwing the passenger off the plane.

 

[AceCrackshot]

EagleFlip said:

"As for pilots reported by the TSA as having alcohol on their breath that were drinking, the list appears to be increasing. I have no problem with that. If a "wand monkey" (your term, not mine) keeps an inebriated pilot out of the cockpit, great. Frankly, anyone who would argue the opposite simply isn't thinking clearly."

I have a number of problems with this Eagleflip...call me an unabashed wand monkey hater but...

Who guards the guardians? To wit, what training does your average TSA screener have in sensing the proverbial drunk pilot? Common sense, inituition, what? Considering the ramifications to the accused, is that level of "training" a sufficent reed on which to rest your career?

We have multi-person crews for a reason. Quite honestly, the other pilot, cabin attendants, ramp personnel that the accused will come in contact all have a legal, plus personal obligation to call the accused out. Considering the TSA track record of incompetence and featherbedding, are increased powers for their employee's really a good idea. As was noted, hammering the pilot, guilty or not, is usually the order of the day.

At what point do we have a TSA minder just come with us on all layovers? I mean, since obviously we have no expectation of privacy, then where is the cutoff? Breathalyzer before each flight, each day. One a month?

Drug testing was bad solution to a nonexistant problem. Do pilots drink? Yes. More than they should. Probably. Has it contributed negatively to aviation safety in the U.S.? IMHO, not demonstrably.

 

[flx757]

One other thought though: Does anyone know if there has ever been an airline accident/incident wherein it was discovered the proximate cause was consumption of alcohol or drugs by the flight crew?

I don't know about "proximate cause", but the company I was flying for at the time...Trans-Colorado Airlines, operating as "Continental Express" through a wet-lease agreement with Rocky Mountain Airways, had an accident on approach to Durango in the mid 80s that resulted in the fatality of both crewmembers and a number of the passengers. The Captain was found to have cocaine metabolites in his system, and while he was not directly under the influence at the time of the accident, they determined that fatique related to his recent use was a contributing factor. This accident was a major catalyst in the DOT instituing the drug and alcohol testing program we now are all subject to.

 

[Ty Webb]

I thought that Elizabeth Dole led to the testing program we are all subject to. . . . Oh, no, wait, she led to the development of Viagra.

Poor Bob.

 

[radarlove]

Oh, as an interesting aside, a fellow pilot once told me that a flight attendant came to the cockpit telling of a passenger who was concerned about the safety of the flight because "they had seen the pilot drinking a beer". You can imagine the captain's response and all of the emotions. He went back and met with the passenger and told them that it was a pretty serious accusation (and other passengers had heard the charge) they were making. How did they come to that conclusion? The passenger was steadfast. "I know you were, because I saw you myself as I got on the airplane. I looked right through the window and saw you had a beer on your table." The captain proceeded to tell them that they were looking at the first class section of the aircraft- NOT the cockpit! Then he demanded to have a breath test, which was negative, and went on to fly the trip- after throwing the passenger off the plane.

It's always interesting to me how over-reactive UAL pilots can be. Why take a breath test? Why kick the passenger off?

While I don't really doubt that the story is true, I also don't see any way to get a breath test just because you want one. If there is no "reasonable suspicion", (again, by a trained employee, not some pax) then there is no test. That's to keep drug/alcohol testing from becoming a weapon in personal disputes.

 

[InTransit]

EagleFlip said:

"As for pilots reported by the TSA as having alcohol on their breath that were drinking, the list appears to be increasing. I have no problem with that. If a "wand monkey" (your term, not mine) keeps an inebriated pilot out of the cockpit, great. Frankly, anyone who would argue the opposite simply isn't thinking clearly."

I have a number of problems with this Eagleflip...call me an unabashed wand monkey hater but...

Who guards the guardians? To wit, what training does your average TSA screener have in sensing the proverbial drunk pilot? Common sense, inituition, what? Considering the ramifications to the accused, is that level of "training" a sufficent reed on which to rest your career?

We have multi-person crews for a reason. Quite honestly, the other pilot, cabin attendants, ramp personnel that the accused will come in contact all have a legal, plus personal obligation to call the accused out. Considering the TSA track record of incompetence and featherbedding, are increased powers for their employee's really a good idea. As was noted, hammering the pilot, guilty or not, is usually the order of the day.

At what point do we have a TSA minder just come with us on all layovers? I mean, since obviously we have no expectation of privacy, then where is the cutoff? Breathalyzer before each flight, each day. One a month?

Drug testing was bad solution to a nonexistant problem. Do pilots drink? Yes. More than they should. Probably. Has it contributed negatively to aviation safety in the U.S.? IMHO, not demonstrably.

I believe EagleFlip made a good arguement. I also believe that the TSA, despite it's weaknesses, has trained adequately enough for this scenario: If you smell alcohol, report it. The only ramifications a pilot will face are those equivalent to the level of his responsibily. And don't count on crewmembers to save the day, especially when they're the drinking buddies from the night before.

 

[JB Bus Drvr]

It's time we start policing ourselves on this alcohol misuse issue. It may be embarrasing but, if you see a fellow pilot at the bar loading up, maybe a discrete word might make a difference. The response might be to go f yourself or maybe, though unlikely, thanks for your interest. We have a situation here where everybody wants to be a hero in their supervisor's eyes. Popping a pilot, whether real or imagined, by a TSA screener, may put a notch in their belt, but it's up to us to prevent that from happening. If it does happen, demand an alcohol screening or leave your ID at the door. I've walked off a flight for an unfounded alcohol misuse accusation, got tested, negative results, got paid for the trip, and lunch on the company. If you think you're anywhere close to not being legal, call off sick. Just don't let anybody get us. Too many wanna be hero TSA, LEO and Judges out there making our jobs tougher everyday.

 

[radarlove]

Why in the world would you "get yourself tested" and walk off a flight? Are you an ex UAL guy? And who tested you? Under what auspices?

Again, if you are not under "reasonable suspicion", there is no route to take under the DOT program to just go get a test. If you did, then you (and your company, and the testing contractor) violated the FAA/DOT regulations. Nice.

Now, I'm sure it made you fell all better to inconvenience a whole plane of people, plus your airline, plus the guy that had to replace you, but again, why? You weren't in any danger, you job wasn't in any danger and by storming off, all you did was look like a primadonna.

Why not a "We just don't joke about that sir."

Or, "If you are not comfortable sir, here is our customer service representative who will take care of your concerns and rebook you on another flight."

There--now the only person inconvenienced is the jerk, not the customers and your employer.

If you're curious, look here.

 

[JB Bus Drvr]

Why not, I got paid for it and the pax who made the accusation got a visit from corp. security. Also, you don't know who overheard the accusation. If it was a NY Times or USAToday reporter, you could be front page news the next day. Three things you don't say boarding a plane; Hijack, Bomb, and is the pilot drunk. It's time we stand up for ourselves. It seems that as an industry for the most part, nobody else will. BTW, the flight was delayed for about 20 mins. and a reserve Capt. flew the trip. But if you want to tolerate the continuing disrespect we continue to get as airline pilots, that's your choice. No primadonna about it. Just retaining our dignity.

 

[radarlove]

Why not, I got paid for it

Nice.