UAL MEC tough stance on Scope---keep it up!

[doh]

Dewey has a point. The best way to be a good ALPA member is to bring it all back home. The rest will sort itself out.

 

[pilotkppsg]

I've been sitting on the sidelines for this so far, but i'm gonna chime in now that i've seen alot of mainline guys who've come from us lowly regional jet operators clearly forgetting where they came from. YOU GUYS GAVE US THESE JETS. We didn't undercut any of you to get them. We were on your list via the flow through.

Since I work for Express Jet, plz allow me to speak as an Express Jet pilot. CAL wholly-owned us, everything from seniority numbers, CCS access, coair, uniforms, training etc was done to their standards and, with few exceptions, their employees. The IAH chief pilot for us was a bloody CAL flow up with recall rights till 2k8.

There was a flow-up/flow-down agreement in place that worked until you guys pussied up and wouldn't renew it after we voted in alpa over that faggot ass IACP scab factory of a union and got a contract better, much better, than yours (see Contract 04 work rules). A second year FO at XJT made more per hr than a first yr CAL FO on the 757. You guys spun us off to pay for your bankruptcy, then your executives have driven us almost into the dirt. Be it Mr Peanut Head Kellner or that blue blood prick from the Ivy Leagues, Smisek. We didn't do a thing to ya'll but provide extremely good feed for your hubs. Then you had to bring in chataqua and then give Colgan 80000 seat turboprops....

Anyway, if you want the flying we do back, fine, take it with my blessing, but don't sit their on your Righteous Boeing Cloud and reign down judgements on us, more than 40 percent of the Cal list came from Express. We wanted to be one list but you guys thought you were too good to fly something made in Brazil. That's fine too, but don't act like the reason you're still operating under concessionary contracts since 02 is because of us. If you need a person to blame, you need only look in a mirror...or at your MEC.

As for United being the pinnacle of experience and professionalism...ok, how many 300 hr chicks and minorities did ya'll hire in the 97-2000 era? Yeah, let's not forget about them or the SIU interns, etc who didn't even have an ATP you picked up. Admittedly they are likely furloughed now, but that notwithstanding, your poo doesn't exactly smell like roses, bro.

 

[jetflier]

It' time to turn the big ship around.....

 

[dingo222]

This conversation amuses me quite a bit. There is all this talk of ALPA pilots losing their jobs if CAL scope is maintained in the JCBA. What ALPA pilots?

Skywest: non union
ChaBrickury: Teamsters
Go-Jet: Alter-ego scum (Teamsters)
TSA, XJT: 50 seaters, unaffected by scope tightening
Mesa: Not sure if they fly 70s under the UAL banner, but if so I think they'd be the only ALPA regional to have flying returned to mainline.

Did I miss anyone?

As for the first year pay, remember that the industry standard (DAL, SWA, FDX, JBLU) is now around $50K a year and that will be implemented well before any scope tightening. Heck, we were already offered that in that DAL plus $1 joke from this spring. So sorry Rez, at least at this company, $30K probie pay (actually more like $27K) will be a thing of the past. After our combined almost 1600 furloughs are recalled, the days of newhire poverty at mainline should be long gone!

I think you forgot Colgan, but they are all turboprop anyhow. Maybe naive, but how is reigning in scope going to fix things in the short term? Obviously UAL doesn't have the cash to lease or buy the regional aircraft that they would be reclaiming. Mainline giving away scope created an entirely new industry. An industry that is making more money that Legacy carriers. Look at Skywest. They were able to buy ASA, Expressjet, Frontier, and Midwest. To my knowledge, UAL and CAL don't own a single aircraft that would be reclaimed by scope. The regional industry has a lobby that has rivaled ALPA at times. Do you really think CEO X at Brand Z regional is just going to pack up shop, give in, and give up his million dollar bonuses because you want your flying back?

I'm all for legacy carriers reclaiming scope. I've been stuck at this level with no prospect of moving up in the near future. Again, call me naive and confused, but how exactly is this going to take place? I'm sure I'll get 42 D-bag answers, but I'd actually like an educated one.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Thousands have made the jump and took the paycut.

their own choice. If the regional pilots lose thier job because of scope returns it will not be their choice...

Many were even furloughed. That is the risk.

for every pilot...

So let me get this straight, you want to increase pay and mitigate risk?

Not sure where you factor in risk... again the regional pilots lose thier jobs not at their own doing... you seem to not grasp this...

At the expense of whom? Management will surely take that out of mainline pilots' pockets. So who do you expect to pay for your proposal? Where will the concessions come from? Why don't you ask all of the junior regional FO's who will benefit by their newly found upgrade. The idea is just ridiculous...

Yogi

Again... what do you say to the ALPA pilots who are furloughed becuase of scope reversal? So sad too bad? Why? Just cuz?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I tell you what, Rez. How about if I get furloughed (ie. lose my job), your company has to pay me a rate higher than you are currently making. It's only fair since my hourly rate is far higher than yours. It shouldn't matter that you've been at your regional for umpteen years. All that matters is that my current pay should have value at your regional.

I don't think this would happen next week... eventhe most junior pilots at ML would be senior than the regional pilot that came over...

In your example of a 15 year RJ getting ratio'd at year 5 pay, you find it eminently fair that a pilot who never took a chance on his career should be rewarded with an enhanced pay scale.

Yes because he lost his job due to no fault of his own...

Potentially there are pilots who left that exact same carrier 4 years prior that would then be making less than some RJ captain who stayed at his relatively high pay scale and never took a chance or the initial pay cut. You find that fair, right?

Yet that RJ Capt would be junior... he would never make Capt before any current ML pilots...all the best FO seats would be awarded in to the ML pilots first in seniorty order...

You are asking to come to my carrier at a higher rate than I am currently on right now. But if I were to get furloughed, I doubt you would find it fair for me to be hired as a new hire at your company with a payscale higher than yours. Your idea of what is "fair" is well off of center of the Bell curve. I just hope that you are trying to stir the pot and don't truly believe the drivel you are typing.

The difference is the ML pilots are furloughed because their fellow pilots voted scope away.... the RJ Capt is furloughed because another pilot group took scope back...

Again, how are you harmed.. you just seem mad becasue you feel someone is getting something by you.... you will always have seniority over the RJ CA.......

 

[bluefin]

I don't think this would happen next week... eventhe most junior pilots at ML would be senior than the regional pilot that came over...

Yes because he lost his job due to no fault of his own...


Yet that RJ Capt would be junior... he would never make Capt before any current ML pilots...all the best FO seats would be awarded in to the ML pilots first in seniorty order...



The difference is the ML pilots are furloughed because their fellow pilots voted scope away.... the RJ Capt is furloughed because another pilot group took scope back...

Again, how are you harmed.. you just seem mad becasue you feel someone is getting something by you.... you will always have seniority over the RJ CA.......

Too damn bad that things you do in life are a risk and things happen that are out of your control. Another main line guy is furloughed and a regional pilot is hired the circle goes around. No ALPA regional has come knocking on my door to offer me a job to work for them. So I don't think main line should have to offer them anything. As far as being an alpa member, I don't see any high flying banner out saying, "we are going to give preferential interviews to furloughed members". Bottom line, if a regional guy gets furloughed if and when I get my job back, oh f'ing well, let them suffer and endure the bs I and 1436 other pilots have endured.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I've been sitting on the sidelines for this so far, but i'm gonna chime in now that i've seen alot of mainline guys who've come from us lowly regional jet operators clearly forgetting where they came from. YOU GUYS GAVE US THESE JETS. We didn't undercut any of you to get them. We were on your list via the flow through.

Since I work for Express Jet, plz allow me to speak as an Express Jet pilot. CAL wholly-owned us, everything from seniority numbers, CCS access, coair, uniforms, training etc was done to their standards and, with few exceptions, their employees. The IAH chief pilot for us was a bloody CAL flow up with recall rights till 2k8.

There was a flow-up/flow-down agreement in place that worked until you guys pussied up and wouldn't renew it after we voted in alpa over that faggot ass IACP scab factory of a union and got a contract better, much better, than yours (see Contract 04 work rules). A second year FO at XJT made more per hr than a first yr CAL FO on the 757. You guys spun us off to pay for your bankruptcy, then your executives have driven us almost into the dirt. Be it Mr Peanut Head Kellner or that blue blood prick from the Ivy Leagues, Smisek. We didn't do a thing to ya'll but provide extremely good feed for your hubs. Then you had to bring in chataqua and then give Colgan 80000 seat turboprops....

Anyway, if you want the flying we do back, fine, take it with my blessing, but don't sit their on your Righteous Boeing Cloud and reign down judgements on us, more than 40 percent of the Cal list came from Express. We wanted to be one list but you guys thought you were too good to fly something made in Brazil. That's fine too, but don't act like the reason you're still operating under concessionary contracts since 02 is because of us. If you need a person to blame, you need only look in a mirror...or at your MEC.

As for United being the pinnacle of experience and professionalism...ok, how many 300 hr chicks and minorities did ya'll hire in the 97-2000 era? Yeah, let's not forget about them or the SIU interns, etc who didn't even have an ATP you picked up. Admittedly they are likely furloughed now, but that notwithstanding, your poo doesn't exactly smell like roses, bro.

Well said....The truth hurts, but the mainline MEC's and ALPA made this bed....

 

[JoeMerchant]

It' time to turn the big ship around.....

Actually, the time to turn the ship around was 15 years ago....Now that you have hit the iceberg you want to turn the ship around....too late...We can rearrange the chairs on the deck if you would like, but it's far too late to turn the ship around....

 

[Mr Hat]

I've been sitting on the sidelines for this so far, but i'm gonna chime in now that i've seen alot of mainline guys who've come from us lowly regional jet operators clearly forgetting where they came from. YOU GUYS GAVE US THESE JETS. We didn't undercut any of you to get them. We were on your list via the flow through.

Since I work for Express Jet, plz allow me to speak as an Express Jet pilot. CAL wholly-owned us, everything from seniority numbers, CCS access, coair, uniforms, training etc was done to their standards and, with few exceptions, their employees. The IAH chief pilot for us was a bloody CAL flow up with recall rights till 2k8.

There was a flow-up/flow-down agreement in place that worked until you guys pussied up and wouldn't renew it after we voted in alpa over that faggot ass IACP scab factory of a union and got a contract better, much better, than yours (see Contract 04 work rules). A second year FO at XJT made more per hr than a first yr CAL FO on the 757. You guys spun us off to pay for your bankruptcy, then your executives have driven us almost into the dirt. Be it Mr Peanut Head Kellner or that blue blood prick from the Ivy Leagues, Smisek. We didn't do a thing to ya'll but provide extremely good feed for your hubs. Then you had to bring in chataqua and then give Colgan 80000 seat turboprops....

Anyway, if you want the flying we do back, fine, take it with my blessing, but don't sit their on your Righteous Boeing Cloud and reign down judgements on us, more than 40 percent of the Cal list came from Express. We wanted to be one list but you guys thought you were too good to fly something made in Brazil. That's fine too, but don't act like the reason you're still operating under concessionary contracts since 02 is because of us. If you need a person to blame, you need only look in a mirror...or at your MEC.

As for United being the pinnacle of experience and professionalism...ok, how many 300 hr chicks and minorities did ya'll hire in the 97-2000 era? Yeah, let's not forget about them or the SIU interns, etc who didn't even have an ATP you picked up. Admittedly they are likely furloughed now, but that notwithstanding, your poo doesn't exactly smell like roses, bro.

From a fellow Expressjet guy who saw it happen too......the above about sums it up. Day late and a dollar short guys. We could have changed this industry, 6 years ago. Now it is what it is.

 

[AWACoff]

Again, how are you harmed.. you just seem mad becasue you feel someone is getting something by you.... you will always have seniority over the RJ CA.......

A ha! There's the fallacy in your argument. I don't feel that someone is getting something by me because your perverted utopian ideals will never happen. The world isn't fair. Deal with it. I risked my family's financial future by resigning my seniority number at my previous carrier and starting over at the bottome (seniority AND pay). All of you regional guys can buck up and do the same thing. Stop asking for handouts because this ain't the Salvation Army.

 

[JoeMerchant]

A ha! There's the fallacy in your argument. I don't feel that someone is getting something by me because your perverted utopian ideals will never happen. The world isn't fair. Deal with it. I risked my family's financial future by resigning my seniority number at my previous carrier and starting over at the bottome (seniority AND pay). All of you regional guys can buck up and do the same thing. Stop asking for handouts because this ain't the Salvation Army.

Rez isn't a regional pilot anymore...He is furloughed mainline...He is trying to patch the leaks in the ALPA liferaft....

You have expressed perfectly why ALPA will fail....You do what you need to do and I will do what I need to do...We aren't in the same liferaft.....

This isn't the Salvation Army...It's every man for themselves.....

 

[jetflier]

Actually, the time to turn the ship around was 15 years ago....Now that you have hit the iceberg you want to turn the ship around....too late...We can rearrange the chairs on the deck if you would like, but it's far too late to turn the ship around....

Well Joe, I think that you are speaking through emotions, and accepting the notion that it's too late is just , giving up.

We, Pilots must change the way that we negotiate our contracts. For example, ALPA contract negotiations have never used a high power, "Wall Street" firm to negotiate a pilot contract. Why not ? 'cause that's the way they have always done it.

I am sure that your airline doesn't ask for employee volunteers, who want to go to a two week negotiating school, and negotiate their next pilot contract. All airlines hire a high power firm to handle their negotiations, that's why pilots keep loosing ground with every trip to the pattern bargaining table.

The status quo no longer works, and with the economy on an upswing, now is the time to change the way we do things.

 

[doh]

The flying comes back when the feeder contract expires. When does the first one happen? Two years, four? There is plenty of time to position for interviews, moves if you don't want to commute and generally get adjusted for the change. You guys are debating as if every regional pilot will be on the street at the same moment. Nobody is factoring in the retirements that start in a couple of years either. Change is coming in life whether you like it or not. Rez, I appreciate your concern, but what you propose is an impracticality. Start planning now people!

 

[Mr Hat]

To be clear....I totally agree with the stance that outsoucing has totally screwed this industry up. What was once a small feed on C402's bringing people to catch big jets has morphed into this mess where there are multiple companies flying around in jets with the same logo on their tail. Divide and conquer at its best. ALL flying within a brand should be done by pilots of that brand. If you buy a ticket on a particular airline, THAT airline should have to fly you (barring cancellations causing rebooking on another airline) to whereever it is you are going. Its about responsibility to your customers who believe they bought a ticket on your airline.......That should have been the outcome of the Buffalo crash.....instead we got a bunch of ragtag new rest rules that'll only serve to take more cash from our pockets when our schedules become less productive.
But again, we wanted to do this years ago. Now Expressjets been spun off, BOUNCED from the MEC (and we were bounced, no doubt).....I should have to reapply to fly the same damn RJ I've been flying for 10 years? Please. I'm fine with a staple job but if you think for one minute I'm going to let my job (the one YOU guys gave me by not making sure these EMB's were on CAL property to begin with) go without a fight, your nuts.

This was your doing, not ours. But my kids not going to starve because I had to reinterview for my E145 job and now I'm a first year FO makin 19 bucks an hour. If you don't think as ALPA pilots you have a responsibilty to ME, also an ALPA pilot....you got another thing coming.

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

their own choice. If the regional pilots lose thier job because of scope returns it will not be their choice...



for every pilot...


Not sure where you factor in risk... again the regional pilots lose thier jobs not at their own doing... you seem to not grasp this...



Again... what do you say to the ALPA pilots who are furloughed becuase of scope reversal? So sad too bad? Why? Just cuz?

Rez,

You still have not answered my question! Who will pay for your idea to happen? Management will surely want concessions from us to make this happen! Who do you expect to pay for this, my fellow pilots and I at mainline?

Yogi

 

[relief tube]

Like I said before the days of the teens flying our routes are going to come to an end or it will be the end of UAL.

the "teens" want you all to grow a pair and do the same as well. Why don't you think that? Us teens got into this industry to get to mainline and the only way that happens is if you reverse the wills of your fellow pilots of the past voting on weak scope for a pay increase thus leading to the current ********************ty situation where we're all stuck where we don't want to be.

man up and get it back. we'll all be happy then. I don't want to fly ORD-DFW anymore than you want me to.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez,

You still have not answered my question! Who will pay for your idea to happen? Management will surely want concessions from us to make this happen! Who do you expect to pay for this, my fellow pilots and I at mainline?

Yogi

Management will pay for it... not the ML pilot groups.. the RJs are too expensive. The Outsourcing is not safe... the right govt can be persuasive....

Now answer my question... what of the ALPA RJ pilots who lose thier job due to no fault, choice or action of their own...? As ALPA members we can't just put guys on the street...

Recall.. I am advocating that the RJ pilots must apply and pass the interview on thier own accord...

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

Management will pay for it... not the ML pilot groups.. the RJs are too expensive. The Outsourcing is not safe... the right govt can be persuasive....

Now answer my question... what of the ALPA RJ pilots who lose thier job due to no fault, choice or action of their own...? As ALPA members we can't just put guys on the street...

Recall.. I am advocating that the RJ pilots must apply and pass the interview on thier own accord...

Firstly, management will NEVER pay for that w/o wanting something in return. That is called, " use of negotiating capital". We at ML simply cannot/will not afford this.

Now to answer your question, when the flying comes back to ML, all pilots may apply, and hopefully we will have a fair first year payrate. Your not going to get a lot of empathy from ML pilots. We all endured risk, furlough, low first few year wages. I will certainly not vote for a contract that has low B-scales for first year pilots, but I highly doubt ML pilots will collectively agree to expend any negotiating capital to do so. Also I am not be so fast to say that ML pilots gave away the flying willfully, without threats of bankruptcy and the like. Also, I highly doubt that any junior pilots at ML voted to give any scope away, knowing that they would be furloughed. So , therefore, it was no fault of their own either, and I didn't see any regionals jump up and throw them a bone!!!

I'm done with this, and thanks for the debate!

Yogi

 

[mamba20]

Its all a moot point anyways. ALPA will screw us usual, just watch.

 

[johnsonrod]

Rez,

You still have not answered my question! Who will pay for your idea to happen? Management will surely want concessions from us to make this happen! Who do you expect to pay for this, my fellow pilots and I at mainline?

Yogi

In an up year financially, you don't have to give as many concessions. And, were these airlines already on concessionary contracts? That means pay back time. Those UAL guys have taken it in the shorts since 9-11, and if the new UAL management wants an easy merger and not a USAIr style merger, they will agree to many of the demands.

 

[Skippy]

You're not, simple fact. Go through the process of getting hired at a major and then you can talk. Until then, you're not only not in the same league, you're not in the same ballpark.

i agree------ not even close-- the difference b/w legacy and regional is night and day


SKIPPY

i'd rather be furloughed at a legacy than working at a regional

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

In an up year financially, you don't have to give as many concessions. And, were these airlines already on concessionary contracts? That means pay back time. Those UAL guys have taken it in the shorts since 9-11, and if the new UAL management wants an easy merger and not a USAIr style merger, they will agree to many of the demands.

Skippy,

Unfortunately I have some experience at this, you will always spend negotiating capital to get what rez is looking for. That is in the form of giving something to get something. So lets say a great contract is agreed to at the negotiating table, now lastly we throw in this proposal. Do you actually think mngmt will just say, "sure, no problem!" or do you think they would ask to slide back on something agreed to. Be realistic...

Yogi

 

[johnsonrod]

Skippy,

Unfortunately I have some experience at this, you will always spend negotiating capital to get what rez is looking for. That is in the form of giving something to get something. So lets say a great contract is agreed to at the negotiating table, now lastly we throw in this proposal. Do you actually think mngmt will just say, "sure, no problem!" or do you think they would ask to slide back on something agreed to. Be realistic...

Yogi

The problem is, in a good year, they can't say "we can't afford it." That is the difference. If concessions were taken before during bad times, many of them will come back in better times. Good luck to you guys.

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

The problem is, in a good year, they can't say "we can't afford it." That is the difference. If concessions were taken before during bad times, many of them will come back in better times. Good luck to you guys.

I understand what you are saying, but call your negotiating committee, they will be happy to explain to you, that is not how collective negotiating/bargaining works. Read some negotiating books, you can also find it out that way. Management will never hand over anything without somehow taking it from somewhere else. They come to negotiations with a bottom line. They will not exceed that, unless there is a credible strike threat or leverage. Both are very difficult scenarios based on the size of the new UAL.

Yogi

 

[79%N1]

I hate this industry.

 

[densoo]

I've been sitting on the sidelines for this so far, but i'm gonna chime in now that i've seen alot of mainline guys who've come from us lowly regional jet operators clearly forgetting where they came from. YOU GUYS GAVE US THESE JETS. We didn't undercut any of you to get them. We were on your list via the flow through.

Since I work for Express Jet, plz allow me to speak as an Express Jet pilot. CAL wholly-owned us, everything from seniority numbers, CCS access, coair, uniforms, training etc was done to their standards and, with few exceptions, their employees. The IAH chief pilot for us was a bloody CAL flow up with recall rights till 2k8.

There was a flow-up/flow-down agreement in place that worked until you guys pussied up and wouldn't renew it after we voted in alpa over that faggot ass IACP scab factory of a union and got a contract better, much better, than yours (see Contract 04 work rules). A second year FO at XJT made more per hr than a first yr CAL FO on the 757. You guys spun us off to pay for your bankruptcy, then your executives have driven us almost into the dirt. Be it Mr Peanut Head Kellner or that blue blood prick from the Ivy Leagues, Smisek. We didn't do a thing to ya'll but provide extremely good feed for your hubs. Then you had to bring in chataqua and then give Colgan 80000 seat turboprops....

Anyway, if you want the flying we do back, fine, take it with my blessing, but don't sit their on your Righteous Boeing Cloud and reign down judgements on us, more than 40 percent of the Cal list came from Express. We wanted to be one list but you guys thought you were too good to fly something made in Brazil. That's fine too, but don't act like the reason you're still operating under concessionary contracts since 02 is because of us. If you need a person to blame, you need only look in a mirror...or at your MEC.

That is the best summary of what has gone down the last 10 years that I have read. Absolutely correct. Mainline gave it all away. There was a chance to put everyone under one seniority list at a certain point and it was rejected, with prejudice. What a stupid thing to do. Now look at it. No movement on the list, backwards pay and benefits, and gonna be roasted on the SLI. They've been the junior partner in every negotiation and if they act the same way during the merger, they'll get roasted by UAL.

 

[bluefin]

Management will pay for it... not the ML pilot groups.. the RJs are too expensive. The Outsourcing is not safe... the right govt can be persuasive....

Now answer my question... what of the ALPA RJ pilots who lose thier job due to no fault, choice or action of their own...? As ALPA members we can't just put guys on the street...

Recall.. I am advocating that the RJ pilots must apply and pass the interview on thier own accord...

I am on the street, I am(was) a dues paying member, I have applied at some alpa regionals and have gotten the, "I don't meet their qualifications" letter. If I get an interview and blow it, fine. But telling me I don't meet your qualifications. So if they end up on the street, "OH WELL" So much for alpa having my back.

 

[Plug]

Another thing to think about is the fact that ASA and XJT will be merging and will be about 4000 strong which will put them in group A in ALPA. With that status they will have a lot of power. I expect us (CAL/UAL) will maintain the CAL scope clause which will cause the ashes of the RJDC to rise like the Phoenix, please tell me I'm wrong JoeMerchant. Should this happen I would expect to see DAL and UAL to bail on ALPA and go independent and joining forces with USAPA and APA, an all legacy union. Heck, DAL is already rumbling about going independent. This takes the wind out of the sails for any DFR suit as we are no longer one union.

Joe, enjoy your hub turns out of ATL while I do my transcons and trans-oceanic flights with more days off than you, a better retirement plan, and making more at 5th year pay than an ASA Captain on 18 year pay. You have your flying via contract and as quickly as it came is as quickly as it will be taken away.

 

[General Lee]

I understand what you are saying, but call your negotiating committee, they will be happy to explain to you, that is not how collective negotiating/bargaining works. Read some negotiating books, you can also find it out that way. Management will never hand over anything without somehow taking it from somewhere else. They come to negotiations with a bottom line. They will not exceed that, unless there is a credible strike threat or leverage. Both are very difficult scenarios based on the size of the new UAL.

Yogi

Yogi, you are having a hard time understanding Johnsonrod. UAL and CAL MECs have their companies in a corner right now. Big bonuses are at stake, for management and the people putting this merger together. They want it clean, and they are WALL ST. That means less negotiating, and more taking back. That is also called leverage. You need to look it up in negotiating books it seems. When one side has LEVERAGE, that side usually gets a lot more of what they want. The time is now.


Bye Bye--General Lee