UAL Liquidation?

[jmreii]

I really hope and pray for the the best for United employees. I personally would not want to see another large airline failure of this sort in the US. It is hard enough looking at old pictures of Pan Am, TWA, and Eastern.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

I have to throw the BS flag here Mr. aaflyer. I realize that SWAPA is the most influential pilot organization around but...

You all have to admit that once alpo got on board, age 65 was a done deal. Quit blaming SWAPA.

ALPA got on board a SWAPA position. So the blame lies with SWAPA who gave the issue its traction.

SWAPA is the cause of age 65.

 

[AAflyer]

ALPA got on board a SWAPA position. So the blame lies with SWAPA who gave the issue its traction.

SWAPA is the cause of age 65.

Bingo!

 

[LocoPiloto]

I have to throw the BS flag here Mr. aaflyer. I realize that SWAPA is the most influential pilot organization around but...

You all have to admit that once alpo got on board, age 65 was a done deal. Quit blaming SWAPA.

Yes, you just validated AAflyer's comments. Age 65 was spear headed by SWAPA.. Now everyone is suffering, even your own junior pilots.

Thanks!

Loco

 

[fullsail]

I hate to say it but Prater was most definitely for 65. And when he is 65 he'll most definitely be for 70. Along with SWAPA of course...
Can't wait for that

 

[JoeMerchant]

In the 1960's Pan Am and TWA were two of the best airline jobs out there. Braniff was the most profitable airline in the 1970's. Eastern at one point was the largest airline in the U.S. in the 1980's. UAL in the 90's was thought by many as the strongest airline out there.
There is not a single airline out there that can be sure about their future. None of us are safe. It almost seems that the stronger an airline is at one point, the further it falls at another.
We all live in glass houses.

...and yet we as a profession/union haven't figured out a way to transport our longevity across company lines....I see the United pilots want to talk about a national seniority list....now that they are on the chopping block.....

 

[fatboyplt]

Mr. Merchant
Could you please point out to us where the UAL pilots want to talk about a national seniority list. I for one have not seen nor heard of this subject at work in conversation or print. Not that I could be incorrect though. Just curious as to your statement.

Birdman
BTV

 

[SkiFishFly]

Yes, you just validated AAflyer's comments. Age 65 was spear headed by SWAPA.. Now everyone is suffering, even your own junior pilots.

Thanks!

Loco

I think you might take a look at the international community. Age 65 started with ICAO changing the age limit...

 

[JoeMerchant]

Mr. Merchant
Could you please point out to us where the UAL pilots want to talk about a national seniority list. I for one have not seen nor heard of this subject at work in conversation or print. Not that I could be incorrect though. Just curious as to your statement.

Birdman
BTV

[FONT=&quot]AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]102ND REGULAR EXECUTIVE BOARD MEETING[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]September 9-10, 2008[/FONT]​

​

[FONT=&quot]SUBJECT[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]National Seniority Protocol[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]SOURCE[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]UAL MEC[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]BACKGROUND INFORMATION[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]See proposed resolution.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]PROPOSED RESOLUTION[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]WHEREAS the Air Line Pilots Association has been at the forefront of pilot labor representation in the airline industry since 1931, and has consistently been the champion of safety protocols that assure our passengers have the safest transportation system possible, and[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]WHEREAS the 77 year history of ALPA is replete with examples of bold decisions made by ALPA leaders in order to assure that measures, necessary to protect the economic bargaining rights and professional interests of its members, have been instituted and that the best interests of the profession have been secured, and, [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]WHEREAS opportunities to make significant and enduring policy changes that enhance the professional opportunities of every ALPA member come along rarely and are often precipitated by industry destabilizing events like those brought to bear on ALPA members with The Airline Deregulation Act of 1978, the September 11th acts of war, the bankruptcy era, and the current manipulated inflation of the price of petroleum, and[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]WHEREAS the most unfulfilled professional benefit, recognized by all airline pilots and by ALPA members specifically, is the lack of a policy, derived from fundamental union principals, that enables and enforces the individual members’ ability to transfer their seniority, longevity, and operational experience as professionals from one airline employer to another, thereby allowing a manipulation of their entire career path by the actions of the very same capitalist cabal whose fundamental goal is to limit, degrade and minimize the essential role of pilots to the airline industry, and[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]WHEREAS parochial company loyalty, historically embraced by ALPA pioneers of previous eras, has been perverted and used against ALPA members as a capitalist leveraging tool that stifles the inherent right of professional pilots to collectively negotiate an economically sound and stable ratio of pay and work rules for identical job responsibilities using the continual underlying threat of losing the earned seniority benefits derived from their professional longevity at a particular airline while being compared to the economics of another airline (whipsawing), and[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]WHEREAS the fundamental principal of national seniority does not conflict with the current or future job prospects of pilots but instead extends a common system of advancement to be used at every ALPA carrier and bonds all ALPA pilots to the profession instead of to an individual airline; a national seniority list would assure a logical and rational adherence to a measurable, protected status of those pilots from a commonly defined starting point in their professional careers regardless of how many airlines may exist, regardless of the skill and economic acumen of the managements that run them, and regardless of the transient political influence of the day, and[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]WHEREAS the career security of any pilot who was able to transfer his seniority to another air carrier would liberate ALPA pilots and forever eliminate the ability of management to whipsaw or erode ALPA unity based on loss of job threats, economic fear or arbitrary merger awards, based on a perceived surviving carrier analogy, thus enabling ALPA to negotiate wages and work rules at all airlines based on the pilots’ collective evaluation of their true contribution and economic value to an air carrier,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Executive Board acknowledges this historic and momentous opportunity in time when several key air carrier contract amendable dates are so closely aligned, and which could be coordinated as part of this undertaking, that will launch a historic, new career security protocol for all ALPA pilots and by design, realign the true interests and career expectations of every pilot represented by ALPA both now and in the future, and[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the development of a national seniority protocol be assigned to a select National Seniority Committee (NSC) consisting of the President of ALPA; one pilot from each represented pilot group within group A, to be appointed by the Master Chairman of each MEC of the group; and one pilot representing each group designation: B1, B2, B3, B4 and C, each of whom shall be appointed by a consensus of the MEC Master Chairmen from each of the pilot groups represented within a classification; for a total of 11 members, and[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the National Seniority Committee will establish a single national seniority protocol that will be used to establish two separate lists reflecting the Canadian ALPA pilots and the United States ALPA pilots, and[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the protocol for an ALPA national seniority list will be developed by the NSC under a rigid timeline with a specific date for completion in 2009, and using a simple and transparent methodology that defines a starting point common to all professional air line pilots from which all seniority benefits and longevity will derive, and,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that without discrimination to any pilot, the NSC will set and fix a methodology recognizing “benchmarks of career achievement” with associated “exercise rights” in order to minimize unrealistic windfalls/detriments to any pilot unless and until those common benchmarks have been met, regardless of whether the benchmarks have been achieved at an ALPA carrier or not, and[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that upon completion of the protocol, the NSC will present a single, unified explanation of the developed protocol to all ALPA members, and all other represented professional pilot groups, using all available communication tools before preferably submitting the NSC proposal for ALPA-wide membership ratification, Roll Call by the governing body, or the applicable rules as stipulated in the ALPA Constitution and By Laws, and[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that upon adoption as ALPA policy by the proper authorizing internal ALPA mechanisms, the national seniority protocol will be enforced as of that date and no ALPA Collective Bargaining Agreement will be signed by the President of the Association without full inclusion of this policy as a part thereof.[/FONT]

 

[AA717driver]

Joe Merchant, you are my hero!

So, exactly where does my 12/30/1988 TWA DOH fall on the ALPA National Seniority List?

Oh, yeah, I forgot. That was different...

Hypocrites. Twist in the wind, I say. TC

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe Merchant, you are my hero!

So, exactly where does my 12/30/1988 TWA DOH fall on the ALPA National Seniority List?

Oh, yeah, I forgot. That was different...

Hypocrites. Twist in the wind, I say. TC

If it were up to me....you would use the TWA DOH....However ALPA has already thrown the TWA folks under the bus once....this time they would back over you.....

 

[JetDude]

I think you might take a look at the international community. Age 65 started with ICAO changing the age limit...

Please let's not start letting facts get in the way of FI discussions... they destroy the credibility of this site.

 

[AAflyer]

Please let's not start letting facts get in the way of FI discussions... they destroy the credibility of this site.

****March 24 2006 - British Airways is proposing to change its New Airways Pension Scheme (NAPS) in order to clear a £1 billion past service actuarial deficit. Despite the name, NAPS has been closed to new members sice 2003. A newer - defined contribution - scheme, British Airways' Retirement Plan (BARP) has been available since then to recent joiners, including chief executive Willie Walsh who joined in May 2005.
The New Airways Pension Scheme (NAPS) NAPS has 33,794 active members, 20,269 deferred and 15,185 pensioners. BA intends to keep a final salary pension scheme with no changes to pension benefits already earned and no increase in staff contribution rates. But, under the new proposals, there will be changes to members' benefits relating to future service.
Key changes for future service are:

* Normal retirement age for cabin crew raised from 55 to 60 initially and 65 after 5 years.

* Normal retirement age for pilots raised from 55 to 60 - 65 if countries such as France and the USA remove restrictions on older pilots overflying them.






****The French Senate has approved a measure raising the retirement age for pilots from 60 to 65 despite a four-day strike to protest the change that caused widespread disruption to Air France services. Tuesday 18th Nov 2008


****Off the Cathay Pacific site till recently.

4. What is the retirement age for pilots?
We offer a full career to the age of 55 years.
http://www.cathaypacific.com/cpa/en_INTL/faq/careers/flightcrew#


Yes, it looks like the Brits, French, and Pilots of Cathay Pacific had been flying to age 65 for years..... Heck the British were retiring at 55, and changed their age based on what the pilots HERE in the US did, as well as the French who fought it and only changed recently.


Let's not let facts get in the way of things.. Yes, a bunch of 3rd world countries had pilots flying to 65, yet many others in the EU and Far East did not...

AAflyer

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Age 65?

As of 2007 or 2008, JAA started an Age 70 study committee.

I don't think that has anything to do with SWAPA.

cliff
GRB

 

[BeCareful!]

Air Traffic Controllers retire at 57. Why?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Air Traffic Controllers retire at 57. Why?

Because they work for the Federal Govt.....

 

[AAflyer]

Hi!

Age 65?

As of 2007 or 2008, JAA started an Age 70 study committee.

I don't think that has anything to do with SWAPA.

cliff
GRB

You are correct Cliff we are talking about age 65.. Don't get too far ahead of yourself here

AAflyer

 

[AAflyer]

Southwest Airlines Pilots’ Association Praises the Work of Congress to
Increase the Retirement Age of Pilots from 60 to 65

(DALLAS) – After X years of hard work and dedication on Capitol Hill by
congressional leaders, activists, and pilots from the Southwest Airlines Pilots’
Association (SWAPA) and other carriers, the effort to raise the retirement age of
a pilot has come to fruition. Both the House of Representatives and the Senate on
December X passed legislation that will allow pilots for U.S. air carriers to fly
until the age of 65, rather than a forced retirement on a pilot’s 60th birthday.

“Passing this law has saved the jobs of many of our nation’s best pilots, and
we’re pleased that our most experienced aviators will continue to operate our
aircraft,” said SWAPA President Capt. Carl Kuwitzky. “There was no data
showing any decline in the ability to fly an airplane past the age of 60 and
passengers should feel safe knowing there is experience in the cockpit.”

Despite overwhelming support in both the House and Senate, the language for
moving the mandatory retirement age to 65 was consistently held up in bills that
contained other points of contention, such as funding for the Air Traffic
Controllers through the FAA Reauthorization Bill. The new law was passed in a
“suspension of the rules” in which the age 60 language was pulled out
individually, and voted on its own merits. For this to occur, overwhelming
support is necessary, as only one (?) vote against the bill would have killed it.

“(SOME)Foreign air carriers do not have an age 60 retirement age requirement, so there
have been pilots over the age of 60 flying the United States for years,” said
Kuwitzky. “It only makes sense that we would allow our U.S.-owned carrier
pilots to do the same.”

SWAPA and its pilots were instrumental in getting this law passed. The removal
of the Age 60 Rule has been a legislative priority at the Association for years, and
the long-time efforts of SWAPA’s Governmental Affairs Committee and pilot
volunteers helped the change occur. SWAPA has been organizing “Capitol Hill
-more-


This is a press release from SWAPA...


AAflyer

 

[fatboyplt]

Mr. Merchant,
Thank you for your response.

Birdman
BTV

 

[PHXFLYR]

Let's just hope it never happens to anyone again...

Amen,brother.....

PHXFLYR