FlyDeltaJets
While I hear your position
"Should we protect our investment and give help if it is need? Sure. If it is needed. But I for one hope that we are very careful about what we concede. For I, unlike you it seems, know that if pilot groups don't fight for what they deserve, every pilot's career will erode. Even the guys at Southwest. "
It is difficult to support your position after watching the MECs at allow UAL/US Air go into bankruptcy and have their pay/work rules gutted...and now AMR is looking at a 25% pay cut with a furlough of 2500 pilots.
I think that you will find that both U and UAL agreed to concessions before bankruptcy. It didn't help.
At least APA at AMR has finally learned the lesson that it's better to bargain with some leverage, than to have a contract imposed while in bankruptcy.
See above. I fear the even with their concessions, mgt will ask them for more in BK, a la U/UAL
How can you defend a union that strategy has been partially responsible for allowing two major airline bankruptcies, thousands of furloughs, while at the same time exceptional growth and outsourcing of their flying at subsidy/contract carriers?
I don't accept the notion that ALPA has been responsible for ANY bankruptcies, ever. I also have never defended ALPA's scope policy, I have always said that it needs to be MUCH stronger.
1. If we were on one list on 9/11 by DOH (with some fences...that's a given), I wouldn't have a job, and most probably none of your guys would be on furlough. They'd be flying RJs, but hey, that's better than the street.
You keep getting me with that DOH thing! You really are a kidder! However, we have had 1260 furloughs and DCI has hired 800 (IIRC). There would have been furloughs, but fewer of them. I agree that onelist would help all of us. However, and I have explained this before, you neglect the fact that onelist is not our decision to make. It is mgt's, and they have stated many times (to me personally in fact) that they would spin off DCI before surrendering their massive cost advantage by agreeing to onelist. We simply cannot compel them to do this. We do not have the leverage. To continue to fight for that pie in the sky would mean neglecting more achievable and realistic solutions.
2. If your MEC agreed now to one list now by DOH (with some fences), the 300 or so pilots Comair is hiring this year could all be Delta furloughees...and they could bid with thier DOH, which would put them senior to me already holding a line. Many could hold 70 seat FO or 50 seat Capt.
Again, for those who missed it the first 500 times I have said it: If my MEC had agreed to onelist, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WOULD BE DIFFERENT. See above. P.S. Stop it already with that DOH thing...I can hardly breath, and my milk just came out of my nose!
3. After 9/11, your MEC could've asked for all the 70 seaters to be at mainline. He could've offered to drop all scope clauses if his furloughees could fly the planes...or bring them on the property at mainline. He could have told the company to buy as many 70/90 seaters as they need...jets which are perfectly suited to certain markets, rather than maddogs or 737s or 727s. Did he? I don't know for sure, but my bet is no...because once he let those "little" jets on the property, then there would be no going back..you know, "preserve the profession." Tell that to your new 200 guys on the street as of 1 May.
Once again, Delta already has the right to buy as many rjs as they like. There are NO limits to the amount of any airplane that DAL can buy. In fact, the rj is the least restricted airplane out there, for it is one of the few that we allow mgt to outsource. However, once they hit the limit, they have to be flown by mainline pilots. Also, you are incorrect that the MEC has not tried to get rjs at Delta. We proposed it during our last negotiations, and were told to pound sand. I have been told that we are again proposing it. P.S. Those little jets should never have been let off the property. They are simply newer dc-9's, and we have allowed mgt to alter our perceptions. Every 70 seater that we let mgt outsource hurts us all, except of course the guys who claim that they "want" to work for less money their entire careers.
Now...your MEC has very little leverage. Other than getting his scope back by allowing the code share, what leverage does he have left?
I'm not sure that I understand. I first responded because I got the impression that you felt we were forcing our airlines into BK. Now you tell me that we have no leverage?
I agree that our leverage is extremely limited. However, if we are to give concessions, I expect some things in return. One is 70 seaters at mainline. I hope that my reps feel as strongly about this as I do.
Now that ASA and Comair have 70 seat planes/pilots/maintenance/training systems...what does it benefit mainline to negotiate a whole new deal for bigger RJs at mainline...when ASA/Comair are getting the job done, and making a profit?
Two reasons. 1: our contract only allows them to outsource 57 of them. If they want more, they know who has to fly them, and 2: Because they want concessions from us. We expect some things in return.
At first I thought it was bizarre that the mainline MECs were doing nothing to stop the impending train wreck. I thought, well maybe they're working deals behind the scenes.
They were.
But after seeing US Air and UAL go down, and watching it take 18 months for APA at AMR to get its act together, I realized that what it's really about at ALPA is "max pay to the last day, and to heck with the junior guys and the financial viability of the company."
You assessment is incorrect. There is no employee group who's fortunes are more closely tied to the success of an airline than the pilots. I can assure you that the financial viability of the airline is foremost in all of our minds. However, protecting our careers in other ways is equally important. If we worked free for the rest of the decade, that would certainly help Delta. Would it help us? Heck no. There is a balance, and I assure you it won't be found by our discussion today, or by running to the company with out wallets out at the first sign of trouble. It will be found through careful study and negotiation, which is going on as we speak.
By allowing the situation to deteriorate to the current situation, the MECs have played right into management's hands. By being in bankruptcy or threatening the same, management has the leverage to demand huge concessions.
See above. I cannot speak for U or UAL, but I assure you that these steps are being taken at Delta.
What if the MECs had taken action in Oct 2001 as I've outlined above? Guess we'll never know the answer to that...but we can see the horrible results of sitting around and doing nothing...30% pay cuts...1/5 of the seniority list on the street...gutting of work rules...huge growth at the wholy owned/contract companies, while more mainline guys go on the street every month.
Your concern about "concessions" in other circumstances would be valid. However, in todays environment, it seems very obvious that its better to negotiate while you still have some leverage left, rather than have circumstances let management dictate what it wants...as they've pretty much done at UAL/US Air/AMR.
Again, I cannot speak for other airlines. Delta, however, is not on the verge of bankruptcy. While it is not out of the question, it is not imminent, either. We have time, and some leverage.
My prediciton is that it's only a matter of time at NWA/DAL before management comes knocking at the concession door. The question is will your MEC negotiate a palatable deal now, or wait until the company is so financially weak, that management imposes a settlement?
