UAL/CAL near deal

[suupah]

DOH should be considered and given some weight but it should not be the only thing looked at.

 

[Flopgut]

The current CAL list isn't even in DOH order. DOH is one factor.

How do you sort out seniority in a single class of 50 new hires on the same day? See the problem?

 

[thor2j]

Relative to what? The only fair standard is the day you were hired. How does your airline determine which nonrevs get boarded first? DOH. How do you bid for positions on your pilot seniority list? DOH. How do all the ohter unions bid for vacation? DOH. See the pattern?

DOH makes no sense when companys come from different backrounds. What r u going to do when a company hasn't done anything for years while another company has grown for the same years. DOH is barely in the equation. With relative seniority there is as little damage as possible.

And by the way at AA, non rev travel is whoever clicks on the mouse first.

 

[SuperFLUF]

It is kind of exciting to think of working for a major airline that has major domestic and international hubs in New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, San Francisco and Washington DC as well as major presences in both Narita and Heathrow, sounds like a very promising company. As said before though, I am cautiosly optimistic.

A promising company provided, Tilton is neutered as the chairman and the board replaces Smisek with an operations guy who knows what the hell he's doing. (CAL's decent quality mgmt left when Gordo left the barstool)

 

[bizicmo]

Relative to what? The only fair standard is the day you were hired. How does your airline determine which nonrevs get boarded first? DOH. How do you bid for positions on your pilot seniority list? DOH. How do all the ohter unions bid for vacation? DOH. See the pattern?

How is the newhire class seniority determined? Date of birth or SS#. Well this will be a new company. Should the new seniority list be created by SS#? The most junior pilot on both list could be the most senior on the combined list.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

Again folks...let'em work it out. 2 to 3 years after this deal (if it works) all furloughs will be back (i anticipate much sooner than later) and this airline will provide stable high incomes w/ benefits for all pilots. Those who say more furloughs will come are mistaken. NO DEAL if more furloughs happen I guarantee it

 

[contrail67]

How is the newhire class seniority determined? Date of birth or SS#. Well this will be a new company. Should the new seniority list be created by SS#? The most junior pilot on both list could be the most senior on the combined list.

Goes by the last 4 of your SS# at United...closer you are to 0000 the more senior you are in your new hire class.

 

[eaglesview]

Not trying to stir it up. Just trying to see what an arbitrator might make of this gaping hiring gap at CAL while UAL hired 2000. That's going to be a difficult part of the list to put together. Apparently, it can get very dynamic in the bottom third. From another thread:

Please don't use post by Mr. G. Lee to make your point, it only weakens your position.

 

[General Lee]

Please don't use post by Mr. G. Lee to make your point, it only weakens your position.

You just can't handle the truth. Look at the past two cases---USAir and DL. You can try to say that a UAL/CAL merger wouldn't be the same, but you would of course be WRONG. They are alike companies, with widebodies and narrowbodies, INTL and DOM flying, etc. Your two groups will give the arbitrators (yes, it will go to arbitrators) a list of what THEY think is fair, and the arbitrators will decide. Category and Status will make up some of the eventual list, but overall IT WILL look like relative seniority, regardless if the bottom UAL guy has been there 12 years, and the bottom CAL guys has been there 3 years. CAL is a stronger airline financially, so there goes the career expectations argument from the UAL guys. Both airlines have a chunk of retirements coming up too. All of that will be looked at by the arbitrators, but don't expect DOH to be factors at all. Look at precedent. You have to, because the arbitrators will be. Good luck!

When the last merger announcement was made, look at your percentage in your OWN company. That will be VERY close to where you end up in the merged one. (+ or - 1 or 2%) Get used to it. The UAL guys will benefit a lot regardless because the CAL guys will bring up the pay and work rules, something the UAL MEC hasn't been able to do for years. That will soften the blow of seeing a younger CAL guy next to you in seniority.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[EL10]

Gen Lee I think you are talking out of school as you don’t understand the differences or similarities between the CAL and UAL work rules. It is CAL pilots that will benefit from the work rules of UAL. The pay is a wash when you add in the retirement contributions. UAL will gain in scope.

Bottom line here is how much is the company willing to pay to get ALPA and AFA onboard.

On a side note how many 737-300s did CAL park these past two years?

 

[densoo]

Please don't use post by Mr. G. Lee to make your point, it only weakens your position.

OK.

General Lee,

Did the SLI run like this?:

Take all the pilots on the property and merge them, so the most senior pilot on each list are next to each other, and the most junior pilot on the property are next to each other, and everyone in between is generally integrated in some way determined by arbitrator.

Then, take all the pilots not on the property and merge them, so the most senior pilot on each list not on the property are next to each other, and the most junior pilot not on the property are next each other.

Then, take the second list and put it under the first list.

 

[thor2j]

Gen Lee I think you are talking out of school as you don’t understand the differences or similarities between the CAL and UAL work rules. It is CAL pilots that will benefit from the work rules of UAL. The pay is a wash when you add in the retirement contributions. UAL will gain in scope.

Bottom line here is how much is the company willing to pay to get ALPA and AFA onboard.

On a side note how many 737-300s did CAL park these past two years?

They pay is a wash????
A 3% less retirement for a 20% pay cut, that's not a wash.

There isn't a CAL guy out there that will benefit from this disaster.

 

[FDJ2]

OK.

General Lee,

Did the SLI run like this?:

Take all the pilots on the property and merge them, so the most senior pilot on each list are next to each other, and the most junior pilot on the property are next to each other, and everyone in between is generally integrated in some way determined by arbitrator.

Then, take all the pilots not on the property and merge them, so the most senior pilot on each list not on the property are next to each other, and the most junior pilot not on the property are next each other.

Then, take the second list and put it under the first list.

Here is a brief summary of how the lists were constructed at DAL/NWA if that's what you are asking.

"We have chosen, instead, to recognize the fleets as divided simply into wide-body and narrow-body groupings, two for Captains, two for FOs.12"​

"12 All Delta and NWA B757s are considered wide-body aircraft for this purpose because Delta operates its B767s and 757s as a combined fleet."

"Constructing the Integrated System Seniority List.​

The ISSL has been constructed from the pre-merger Delta and pre-merger
Northwest pilot seniority lists in effect on November 1, 2008, as provided to the Panel by the parties, in the manner set forth below.​

The relative position of each pilot on the pre-merger lists remained unchanged on the ISSL.(no reordering of premerger lists)​

1. All pilots on long-term sick leave (12 months or longer) were removed
from the pre-merger lists. (taken out for the purposes of constructing status/category ratios of active pilots)​

2. The 274 oldest Northwest pilots were removed from the pre-merger list.
(credit given to NWA pilots for increased attrition over the near term) ​

3. The first 3045 positions on the ISSL were filled with the first 1961 Delta
pilots and 1084 Northwest pilots on the pre-merger lists in a ratio of 1961:1084 beginning with a Delta pilot.(wide bodied captains positions)​

4. The next 2433 positions on the ISSL were filled with the next 1313 Delta pilots and 1120 Northwest pilots on the pre-merger lists in a ratio of
1313:1120 beginning with a Delta pilot.(narrow bodied captain positions)​

5. The next 3932 positions on the ISSL were filled with the next 2580 Delta pilots and 1352 Northwest pilots on the pre-merger lists in a ratio of
2580:1352 beginning with a Delta pilot.(wide bodied first officer positions)​

6. The ISSL was completed with Delta and Northwest pilots remaining on the pre-merger lists in a ratio of 1314:957 Delta to Northwest pilots beginning with a Delta pilot until both pre-merger lists are exhausted subject to paragraph 7, below.(narrow bodied first officer positions)​

7. All pilots with dates of hire after April 14, 2008, were placed at the bottom of the ISSL in order of date of hire.(pilots hired by DAL after the merger announcement)​

8. The Northwest pilots pulled in paragraph 2. were inserted directly above
the next junior Northwest pilot.(the 274 oldest NWA pilots pulled out earlier are plugged back in to account for greater NWA pilot retirements in the near term)​

9. The pilots on long-term sick leave pulled in paragraph 1. were inserted
directly above the next junior pilot on his/her respective pre-merger list."
(these pilots aren't active and were pulled out at the beginning)​

 

[Flybywire44]

Good luck CAL/UAL guys... Hope this ends well and Tilton fades from the picture.

 

[densoo]

Here is a brief summary of how the lists were constructed at DAL/NWA if that's what you are asking.

Thanks.

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

OK.

General Lee,

Did the SLI run like this?:

Take all the pilots on the property and merge them, so the most senior pilot on each list are next to each other, and the most junior pilot on the property are next to each other, and everyone in between is generally integrated in some way determined by arbitrator.

Then, take all the pilots not on the property and merge them, so the most senior pilot on each list not on the property are next to each other, and the most junior pilot not on the property are next each other.

Then, take the second list and put it under the first list.

May sound logical, but do you honestly think furlough 147 at CAL is not better off than 1470 at UAL??? There has to be some consideration for career expectations. All CAL furloughs are rumored to be back in the fall '10. Are there any rumors/news for UAL furloughs?

YOGI

 

[densoo]

May sound logical, but do you honestly think furlough 147 at CAL is not better off than 1470 at UAL??? There has to be some consideration for career expectations. All CAL furloughs are rumored to be back in the fall '10.

I absolutely do think that #147 at CAL should be better placed, much better placed than #1470 at UAL. Furloughed for a couple of years and likely recalled this fall vice being recalled five years from now should count for a great deal, especially when the 147 were simply hostages to JV flying.

But what an arbitrator thinks may be another thing and it helps to know what has happened in a recent SLI in trying to understand what might happen in the next.

 

[densoo]

........

 

[MILF Hunter]

All CAL furloughs are rumored to be back in the fall '10.

YOGI

There is a rumor that General Lee has three balls. What's your point?

 

[Yuppyguppy]

FLight info at it's best.....RUMORS!!!RUMORS!!!

the facts will be out soon be patient

 

[eaglesview]

FLight info at it's best.....RUMORS!!!RUMORS!!!

the facts will be out soon be patient

The facts about UAL or the Generals privates??

 

[Illinois]

I am a UAL furloughee that chose, i.e., hired by two, major carriers, to go to UAL because of the domicile locations. Should I be junior to a CO guy or girl forcing me to commute to NJ, OH, or TX?

My point isn't one of entitlement, but rather our collective future. I'm screwed on the SLI hierarchy. Point is - UA and CO are stronger in the long-term as a single carrier. Don't mess up the integration by thinking you will be better off.

Screw everyone a little bit and wait for the retirements to kick in. It will get better.

 

[justin15e]

I am a UAL furloughee that chose, i.e., hired by two, major carriers, to go to UAL because of the domicile locations. Should I be junior to a CO guy or girl forcing me to commute to NJ, OH, or TX?

My point isn't one of entitlement, but rather our collective future. I'm screwed on the SLI hierarchy. Point is - UA and CO are stronger in the long-term as a single carrier. Don't mess up the integration by thinking you will be better off.

Screw everyone a little bit and wait for the retirements to kick in. It will get better.

That door swings both ways.

There are guys at CAL that chose to go to CAL so they could be in the domiciles you listed.

Perhaps they will get stuck in LAX, SFO, or ORD when they have absolutely no desire to live in the midwest or west coast.

I have no doubt there are a large contingent of UA pilots that can't wait to bid EWR so they can get back to the northeast and I'm sure an equal amount of Texans that are chomping at the bit to get back home to the "mother-land".

Like you stated, there will be some screwed on both sides.

 

[Whydoitry]

I am a UAL furloughee that chose, i.e., hired by two, major carriers, to go to UAL because of the domicile locations. Should I be junior to a CO guy or girl forcing me to commute to NJ, OH, or TX?

My point isn't one of entitlement, but rather our collective future. I'm screwed on the SLI hierarchy. Point is - UA and CO are stronger in the long-term as a single carrier. Don't mess up the integration by thinking you will be better off.

Screw everyone a little bit and wait for the retirements to kick in. It will get better.

Sorry, but yes you should be junior. If this merger doesn't happen, chances are that CAL will not have any furloughs and will probably be hiring by year end, you cannot say that the prospects are as good at UAL. Should you benefit from a merger with a stronger, better run company? Sure, but your expectations as a UAL pilot, at any level of seniority should be lower than an equivalent level of seniority pilot at CAL. This could of course change in the future, but you have to look at the positions of the companies today.

The fact that you chose UA based on domiciles is also irrelevant since airlines open and close bases all the time. I also don't agree that a combined company will benefit everyone, I really fail to see the benefit to CAL of this deal,the Star alliance has all the benefits with none of the drawbacks.

BTW I am not a CAL pilot.

 

[Sy-bill]

This merger is better for both the UAL and CO pilots futures. And ironically for all major airline pilots.

 

[Whydoitry]

How so?

 

[pianoman]

How junior/senior is IAD for UA? BTW not trying to sound like a prick, I'd much rather stay (relatively) happily based in EWR. But if push comes to shove, it's the next choice in line.

 

[chppr5]

Sorry, but yes you should be junior. If this merger doesn't happen, chances are that CAL will not have any furloughs and will probably be hiring by year end, you cannot say that the prospects are as good at UAL. Should you benefit from a merger with a stronger, better run company? Sure, but your expectations as a UAL pilot, at any level of seniority should be lower than an equivalent level of seniority pilot at CAL. This could of course change in the future, but you have to look at the positions of the companies today.

The fact that you chose UA based on domiciles is also irrelevant since airlines open and close bases all the time. I also don't agree that a combined company will benefit everyone, I really fail to see the benefit to CAL of this deal,the Star alliance has all the benefits with none of the drawbacks.

So you THINK CAL will hire for the winter sked?? You can think all you want, just like CAL's aircraft deliveries are for growth. Until it happens it means nothing.....

 

[Jonny Sacko]

I think I speak for all EWR Based CAL pilots when I say "Come on Over"! We'll swap at any time. It would SUCK to be STUCK IN SFO or LAX! Hysterical!

Who gives a crap.

WE MUST STAND TOGETHER OR WE WILL ALL WATCH RJ's FLY OUR JOBS VERY SOON! Management has been extremely sucessful at bashing two groups against each other for managements benefit. WE MUST NOT SNEAK;SIGN;AGREE to anything that doesn't benefit ALL Pilots on the list.

Spellcheck broken.

 

[ATA For Now!]

WE MUST STAND TOGETHER OR WE WILL ALL WATCH RJ's FLY OUR JOBS VERY SOON! Management has been extremely sucessful at bashing two groups against each other for managements benefit. WE MUST NOT SNEAK;SIGN;AGREE to anything that doesn't benefit ALL Pilots on the list.

Spellcheck broken.

Agreed!! I hope they don't F this up!