UAL/CAL near deal

[thor2j]

This could be closer to reality than one might think. From 1999-2001 UAL hired about 2000 pilots the mainline. Around the same time CAL also hired 2000, except they weren't to the mainline, they were at XJT, which was then spun off without any resistance from many pilots who don't want "those" kind of pilots on the property. This may be coming back to haunt them. There is a huge whole in the CAL seniority list at that point. I don't see it so far fetched to have an "adjustment" of sorts for this, advantageous to the junior UAL pilots, not so much for the CAL pilots.

You have no clue!

 

[waveflyer]

This could be closer to reality than one might think. From 1999-2001 UAL hired about 2000 pilots the mainline. Around the same time CAL also hired 2000, except they weren't to the mainline, they were at XJT, which was then spun off without any resistance from many pilots who don't want "those" kind of pilots on the property. This may be coming back to haunt them. There is a huge whole in the CAL seniority list at that point. I don't see it so far fetched to have an "adjustment" of sorts for this, advantageous to the junior UAL pilots, not so much for the CAL pilots.

What are you saying? That UAL was somehow better than CAL when it comes to outsourcing?

If the OO at the end of your name is bc of skywest- you know that's not remotely true

 

[Shrek]

What, no love for Cleveland???

To quote a phrase........ "Have you ever heard of anybody saying - I am going on a vacation to Cleveland!"

Kidding - there was a time that CLE was an embarassment downtown.....but since they have cleaned up the city and have changed their reputation in a lot of people's eyes. Good people there for sure......

 

[densoo]

You have no clue!

I hope.

 

[eaglesview]

This could be closer to reality than one might think. From 1999-2001 UAL hired about 2000 pilots the mainline. Around the same time CAL also hired 2000, except they weren't to the mainline, they were at XJT, which was then spun off without any resistance from many pilots who don't want "those" kind of pilots on the property. This may be coming back to haunt them. There is a huge whole in the CAL seniority list at that point. I don't see it so far fetched to have an "adjustment" of sorts for this, advantageous to the junior UAL pilots, not so much for the CAL pilots.

As a United guy, believe me this is not the attitude that prevails. Both side will have their coo coo's trying to stir crap up.

 

[densoo]

As a United guy, believe me this is not the attitude that prevails. Both side will have their coo coo's trying to stir crap up.

Not trying to stir it up. Just trying to see what an arbitrator might make of this gaping hiring gap at CAL while UAL hired 2000. That's going to be a difficult part of the list to put together. Apparently, it can get very dynamic in the bottom third. From another thread:

There were 2007 hires at Delta put ahead of 2000 hires at NWA. The arbitrators saw it that way, and that was that.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

This could be closer to reality than one might think. From 1999-2001 UAL hired about 2000 pilots the mainline. Around the same time CAL also hired 2000, except they weren't to the mainline, they were at XJT, which was then spun off without any resistance from many pilots who don't want "those" kind of pilots on the property. This may be coming back to haunt them. There is a huge whole in the CAL seniority list at that point. I don't see it so far fetched to have an "adjustment" of sorts for this, advantageous to the junior UAL pilots, not so much for the CAL pilots.

Nope. It doesn't matter. DL hired 650 in 2007, and they were mixed in with year 2000 hires at NWA in the merge. What were those DL guys doing before 2007? Probably flying at Expressjet or wherever. The arbitrators used the date when the announcement was officially made. Anyone on the list then was mixed in, pretty close to relative seniority. (category and status mixed in there too) Anyone hired after the announcement was placed at the bottom. (some DL pilots) The bottom 650 at Delta represented the bottom 7% of DL, and they again were mixed in with the bottom 7% at NWA, which went to year 2000 hires. I don't see much of an adjustment at all. And, USAir and UAL had talks between the "old" CAL/UAL talks and the current ones, so I doubt you can say you should start way back at the initial balked talks a couple years ago.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Flopgut]

I don't see much of an adjustment at all. And, USAir and UAL had talks between the "old" CAL/UAL talks and the current ones, so I doubt you can say you should start way back at the initial balked talks a couple years ago.

Especially so given CAL formally bowed out.

I'm all for everybody getting the best deal they can, but a furlough can't be expected to placed in front of a working pilot. I understand longevity is a factor in merger policy, but let's not make that a go-to item at this point. UAL ALPA should expect to do some heavy lifting on behalf of their junior pilots and not delve into possible merger policy subterfuge. There is going to be a much different scope clause that prevails than what UAL has right now and that is what they want to leverage a benefit for their junior pilots against.

Every single 50+ seat jet not flown by UAL is in violation of CAL's scope. Park every dam one of them. Or don't do the deal, drop out Star, or make plans to put our pilots from the new airline in them.

 

[Jetjockey]

Relative seniority will prevail. I don't think anyone realistically expects a furloughed guy to come off the street and bump a captain out his seat. While not perfect by all definitions, the DAL/NWA has become the model for SLI.

 

[St. Nic]

Relative seniority will prevail. I don't think anyone realistically expects a furloughed guy to come off the street and bump a captain out his seat. While not perfect by all definitions, the DAL/NWA has become the model for SLI.

Relative to what? The only fair standard is the day you were hired. How does your airline determine which nonrevs get boarded first? DOH. How do you bid for positions on your pilot seniority list? DOH. How do all the ohter unions bid for vacation? DOH. See the pattern?

 

[suupah]

DOH should be considered and given some weight but it should not be the only thing looked at.

 

[Flopgut]

The current CAL list isn't even in DOH order. DOH is one factor.

How do you sort out seniority in a single class of 50 new hires on the same day? See the problem?

 

[thor2j]

Relative to what? The only fair standard is the day you were hired. How does your airline determine which nonrevs get boarded first? DOH. How do you bid for positions on your pilot seniority list? DOH. How do all the ohter unions bid for vacation? DOH. See the pattern?

DOH makes no sense when companys come from different backrounds. What r u going to do when a company hasn't done anything for years while another company has grown for the same years. DOH is barely in the equation. With relative seniority there is as little damage as possible.

And by the way at AA, non rev travel is whoever clicks on the mouse first.

 

[SuperFLUF]

It is kind of exciting to think of working for a major airline that has major domestic and international hubs in New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, San Francisco and Washington DC as well as major presences in both Narita and Heathrow, sounds like a very promising company. As said before though, I am cautiosly optimistic.

A promising company provided, Tilton is neutered as the chairman and the board replaces Smisek with an operations guy who knows what the hell he's doing. (CAL's decent quality mgmt left when Gordo left the barstool)

 

[bizicmo]

Relative to what? The only fair standard is the day you were hired. How does your airline determine which nonrevs get boarded first? DOH. How do you bid for positions on your pilot seniority list? DOH. How do all the ohter unions bid for vacation? DOH. See the pattern?

How is the newhire class seniority determined? Date of birth or SS#. Well this will be a new company. Should the new seniority list be created by SS#? The most junior pilot on both list could be the most senior on the combined list.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

Again folks...let'em work it out. 2 to 3 years after this deal (if it works) all furloughs will be back (i anticipate much sooner than later) and this airline will provide stable high incomes w/ benefits for all pilots. Those who say more furloughs will come are mistaken. NO DEAL if more furloughs happen I guarantee it

 

[contrail67]

How is the newhire class seniority determined? Date of birth or SS#. Well this will be a new company. Should the new seniority list be created by SS#? The most junior pilot on both list could be the most senior on the combined list.

Goes by the last 4 of your SS# at United...closer you are to 0000 the more senior you are in your new hire class.

 

[eaglesview]

Not trying to stir it up. Just trying to see what an arbitrator might make of this gaping hiring gap at CAL while UAL hired 2000. That's going to be a difficult part of the list to put together. Apparently, it can get very dynamic in the bottom third. From another thread:

Please don't use post by Mr. G. Lee to make your point, it only weakens your position.

 

[General Lee]

Please don't use post by Mr. G. Lee to make your point, it only weakens your position.

You just can't handle the truth. Look at the past two cases---USAir and DL. You can try to say that a UAL/CAL merger wouldn't be the same, but you would of course be WRONG. They are alike companies, with widebodies and narrowbodies, INTL and DOM flying, etc. Your two groups will give the arbitrators (yes, it will go to arbitrators) a list of what THEY think is fair, and the arbitrators will decide. Category and Status will make up some of the eventual list, but overall IT WILL look like relative seniority, regardless if the bottom UAL guy has been there 12 years, and the bottom CAL guys has been there 3 years. CAL is a stronger airline financially, so there goes the career expectations argument from the UAL guys. Both airlines have a chunk of retirements coming up too. All of that will be looked at by the arbitrators, but don't expect DOH to be factors at all. Look at precedent. You have to, because the arbitrators will be. Good luck!

When the last merger announcement was made, look at your percentage in your OWN company. That will be VERY close to where you end up in the merged one. (+ or - 1 or 2%) Get used to it. The UAL guys will benefit a lot regardless because the CAL guys will bring up the pay and work rules, something the UAL MEC hasn't been able to do for years. That will soften the blow of seeing a younger CAL guy next to you in seniority.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[EL10]

Gen Lee I think you are talking out of school as you don’t understand the differences or similarities between the CAL and UAL work rules. It is CAL pilots that will benefit from the work rules of UAL. The pay is a wash when you add in the retirement contributions. UAL will gain in scope.

Bottom line here is how much is the company willing to pay to get ALPA and AFA onboard.

On a side note how many 737-300s did CAL park these past two years?