ual-awac......

[DontFeedTheBear]

Socalplt,
I'm not sure what AWACs pay rates are, however I remember seeing something on the order of $67/hr for the 70 and $61/hr. for the 50 at year six versus $65.25 for SkyWest. I'm sure the difference is greater for the year 18 guys. If the new pay package passes with a 1% increase and we average a 6% margin for the profit sharing, my hourly rate will average out to $69.85. Based on this I can't see how our rate for flying the seventy is the primary reason AWAC is losing the flying.

D Sanchez,

I think this sums up my point! Just be careful, when you displace USAir flying, do you want to be told that your company bought your job? I'm sure the answer is NO. All I am saying is that the Skywest pilots are not to blame. This is a UAL and AWAC management issue. The pay is too close to use as a blame game. Now if Skywest flew at MESA rates, that would be something to talk about. Skywest 50/70 rates are higher than their 70 rates alone. Then add on bonuses, work rules etc, Skywest actually exceed the 90 rates! Let us also take per diem. AWAC is 1.40 and Skywest is 1.60, if you do the math, that works out to be about another $1 per hour of pay. The rates are so close, I wouldn't use pilot pay as the issue here. I would blame the innability of management to adapt from a antiquated business model. But if blaming Skywest for a same rate scenerio is what helps you sleep at night, then let it be. Everyone has an opinion. Once again, I sincerely hope everything works for you at AWAC. You never know what the future holds, this could easily be a blessing in disguise.

And for the record, an ALPA union drive will be starting at Skywest as soon as it can legally happen. I hope that the pilot group sees this as an valuable time to organize...

Yogi

 

[ArcticFlier]

"And for the record, an ALPA union drive will be starting at Skywest as soon as it can legally happen. I hope that the pilot group sees this as an valuable time to organize...

Yogi "

Amen...................


AF

 

[strega7]

And what exactly is ALPA going to get us? The same thing ALPA got Westair, UFS, and now AWAC? Blame UAL, not SkyWest. ALPA is never the answer for this sort of thing.

 

[Mongolikecandy]

Just think what USAir regionals will be saying when the same happens to them. AWAC will replace them having "bought" the jobs for a cool 125M. It kinda looks like the biggest pay for training/job scandal I have ever seen. Unfortunately, this is the business model that this industry is heading towards. I just hope it stops soon.

Don't be ignorant. This is not buying jobs. It was a 125 million investment into a company that turns into common stock upon exiting bankruptcy. AWAC will hold somewhere between 22 to 30% in stock in the new Airways. If AWAC just gave Airways $125 mil for the right to fly their feed, you would have a very valid argument. But it simply isnt the case. Along with stock ownership comes representation on the board. So this is an investment which also secures flying for AWAC. If you make an investment in something, don't you expect to get something in return? To equate this as pay for training is retarded. Don't try to throw this discussion into that toilet.

 

[Illinois]

You (SKW) are at the top of the list right now...because you accepted to fly those 70s for 50 rates. What gets many pilots pi$$ed off is all the bragging going on at your organization. But the reality is YOU allowed yourselves to be sold out...now its at the expense of AWAC. Meanwhile WE (regional pilots) are broke, with no hope in sight.

SKW, YOU can stop the cycle...stand up, get organized, get your pay...you deserve it. You guys have a great pilot group, but its all talk and no action...

ALPA, Teamsters, internal union, it doesnt matter...you better get that money!!!

I am sorry you feel that Skywest pilot's are mainly to blame for your situation. We will simply have to disagree where I stand on the list of people you are angry with. I have not seen or heard any Skywest Pilot brag about this. If they do...please flip them off for me!

Unionization is a choice that we will probably vote on again later this year. Many of the fence sitters have moved over to the pro-union side as of late.

There is no need to make inflammatory statements regarding my pay. I believe our (your's and mine) opinions of all of these issues are closer than you think.

 

[Amovolare]

D SANCHES
Thank you for posting AWAC 146 pay scale, but aren't you forgetting
to post the difference in pay between the 200 and the 300 model which have the same number of seats difference as skywest 200 model which seat 50 pax and the 700 model which seats 66 pax.
I commute on AWAC and every single pilot has been very helpfull getting me to and from work, you guys deserve better, but for the few out there who blame it on Skywest, do your homework before pointing fingers.
I hope the best for everybody, it's not fun to loose your job to another carrier
( ironically I lost my job to Skywest and now I fly for them), hopefully most of AWAC pilot will just have to commute to get to work, it's sucks but you'll be very prepared for recurrent.

Ciao FED.

p.s. IF the payscale for the 146/ 200 & 300 are different, please excuse my ignorance

 

[Illinois]

DONTFEEDTHEBEAR said:

Who do you think you're kidding Dontfeedthebear?

SKYW pilots fly 70 seat airplanes for 50 seat rates.

Rates from airlinepilotpay.com
SKYW 5th year CA: 63 FO: 38
AWAC 5th year (Bae146) CA:71 FO: 41

Rate from my pay stub
SKYW 5th year (CRJ) CA: 65.25

 

[Crossky]

DONTFEEDTHEBEAR said:

Who do you think you're kidding Dontfeedthebear?

SKYW pilots fly 70 seat airplanes for 50 seat rates.

Rates from airlinepilotpay.com
SKYW 5th year CA: 63 FO: 38
AWAC 5th year (Bae146) CA:71 FO: 41

Yes they do, and you SKW Pilots suck for doing that, regardless of who is to blame or to share the blame for AWAC in losing the UAX flying (personally I blame AWAC "Leadership"). Even though they make more flying the 700 than Mesa Pilots make for flying the 50 seater, at least Mesa pays a difference, and I give them a little respect for that (golf clap). But at AWAC, Mesa, and SKW, the FO makes the same no matter what RJ: what a screw job.

Anyway, STOP comparing SKYW rates to AWAC Bae146 rates unless you compare them on a $/seat per hour basis. The 146 is mainly an 85 seat aircraft at AWAC.

After crunching the numberswith the 85 seat 146, $/seat per hour:

5 yr: SKW CA 0.90 AWAC CA 0.84 SKW FO 0.54 AWAC FO 0.51
15 yr: SKW CA 1.23 AWAC CA 1.13 SKW FO 0.57 AWAC FO 0.55

Obviously the average AWAC 146 CA has some seniority, but there are at least a few 20+ yr SKW CA's, I've even heard of SKW retirements.

I appreciate all the expressions of sympathy to us AWAC guys.

crashpad, we don't deserve the ridicule and disrespect you've lashed out onto the pilots with in this thread. Most of us aren't fresh faced pilot factory punks you know. APR 22nd doesn't mean a thing, don't you know that we'll reduce and transfer our flying over one year? Go away.

 

[fam62c]

Bottom feeders, it's all relative.

I'm not involved with ARW, UAL or any of the carriers who do or will do UAL flying but I think all this talk about bottom feeders and undercutting depends on where you are. Does Air Wisconsin, or for that matter any small airline, fly routes that were once flown by major airlines? Of course the answer is yes. You may have the highest rates in the "regional" industry but small airlines have undercut the costs at majors and taken flying away; aren't all of the regionals "bottom feeders?"

My point is simply this, the industry is very competitive and cost critical and every airline is looking for the cheapest provider. Flying is continually flowing down from higher cost carriers to lower cost carriers and what's happening at UAL now is just a continuation of that process. So, it's all relative. If you're a UAL pilot you probably think that the Air Wisconsin pilots are "bottom feeders" and I'm sure there are plenty of UAL pilots who view what's happening to the ARW guys as justice. If you work for American you probably think the UAL pilots are "bottom feeders." If you're an Air Wisconsin pilot you may think the Skywest, GoJet or whatever pilots are "bottom Feeders." I'll tell you what else, if this industry continues on it's current path some other airline will come along sooner or later that is so cheap that the Mesa pilots will be calling THEM bottom feeders. I don't see the point of pilots bashing other pilots, pilots don't control the economy. You're never going to convince some 22 year old flight instructor that he/she is better off not working for a small airline because it will help the profession. There will always be pilots trying to enter the business and they will work for little or nothing to get their foot in the door and that allows the airlines to do what they do. There are too many of us and too few good jobs. I doubt there are any of us here that that didn't start out as bottom feeders for starvation wages to get into the business whether it was flight instructing, banner towing, traffic watch, charter or being a regional FO.

 

[Lampshade]

What are you doing with a house? Did you ever think your career with a commuter could reliably support a house and kids. That's just irresponsible. Rent an apartment and use birth control, or get a job with real stability. Yeah, you'll actually have to work, but that's what happens when you don't plan ahead.

Thank goodness this won't effect the senior guys. I hope you all can hang on long enough to get on with a big airline soon and put this experience behind you

Crashpad,

You are an a$$! You were once a Air Wisconsin guy, show some compassion for gods sake. I know its hard from that high perch as a new F9 Fo on reserve.


Lamp

 

[Piedmonster]

I wouldn't worry too much. I think USAIR is in better shape now than United. Wouldn't it be interesting if United tanks and USair survives.... I do know this for a fact, Our management team at AWAC are very smart and very shrewd and they wouldn't have p!ssed away 125 Mil on a company if they thought it wasn't going to survive and be prosperous. United on the other hand just continues to flounder around and not know what end is up.....just my 2 euros

 

[jrod]

Does Air Wisconsin, or for that matter any small airline, fly routes that were once flown by major airlines? Of course the answer is yes. You may have the highest rates in the "regional" industry but small airlines have undercut the costs at majors and taken flying away; aren't all of the regionals "bottom feeders?"

fam,

A little history is in order here, just for perspective. AWAC was the last airline to gain it's operating certificate prior to deregulation. Back then it was a long and tedious (not to mention political) process. The same process that United, American, Braniff, and Eastern had to go through to get their routes awarded. AWAC operated independently with their own routes until 1984 when they pioneered the code-share process with UAL that has become common in our industry. They were still independently owned and flew under their own colors.

In 1991 ARW was the third largest operator out of ORD behind UAL and AMR. UAL bought ARW for their ORD landing slots and ran the company into bankruptcy. It was broken apart into several pieces, one of which became ACA which is now Independence Air. Another became what now remains of the old Air Wisconsin (18 146's). Meanwhile, UAL took all of the ARW slots and routes and made them their own. They farmed what they didn't want back to ARW and newly formed UFS. ARW was eventually sold to independent investors and merged with Aspen Airways/MAX Air. We then purchased the 70 RJ's we currently have to operate for UAL.

So in fact, UAL flies routes that were once flown by AWAC, not the other way around. UAL/ALPA had the chance to merge ARW and avoid all this so call "bottom feeder" type flying. Instead they chose to implement a scope clause and farm out the RJ size aircraft to contract operators. The genie was out of the bottle.

I agree that everyone makes their own choices about how and when to gain the neccessary experience to move up in this industry. However, what I don't agree with is entire pilot groups willing to sell out in order to provide their management with a competitive edge over a rival airline.

Unfortunately, AWAC has become the latest victim of this process.

 

[crashpad]

You are an a$$! You were once a Air Wisconsin guy, show some compassion for gods sake. I know its hard from that high perch as a new F9 Fo on reserve.

Sorry Ned, I upgraded early last year. And what's with the FO slam? I think being an FO is every bit as important as being a Captain...sometimes more, depending on who's flying!
Shake my tree all you want, I doubt you'll remove me from my perch high above you. I've recommended several pilots from Cheddar Central since and before 9/11. That's not compassion though, I'm just looking out for the best interests of my own company?
I have plenty of compassion for pilots. We're all one big family, and I'd tell my brother 'don't buy a house or make babies if you're working at a commuter'.
Get your facts straight Flanders; 'I'm a compassionate a$$'!

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Sorry Ned, I upgraded early last year. And what's with the FO slam? I think being an FO is every bit as important as being a Captain...sometimes more, depending on who's flying!
Shake my tree all you want, I doubt you'll remove me from my perch high above you.

CP,

That wasn't even a little bit nice, funny as a mutha fuk though!!!! I am all over the floor in stiches....

WD.

 

[crashpad]

And here to prove my point,(drum roll, cymbal clash).....The Great One!

They should've made Whiskey Drivers' posts on this board required reading at every subsequent Air Wisconsin pilot ground school! They would've turned UAL into their 'Beotch', or been outta work a lot sooner!
Either way, they would've gained the respect of The Don and some closure.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

And here to prove my point,(drum roll, cymbal clash).....The Great One!

They should've made Whiskey Drivers posts on this board required reading at every subsequent Air Wisconsin pilot ground school class!

Then, my dear Noodley-Doodley-Ned, you and I would be flinging poop over on the 'PFT thread'.

Whew too much laughter in one afternoon you're killing me CP.


WD.

 

[suupah]

Hey is whiskey moving their jets to Us airways in any way going to displace piedmont routes?

 

[HDA]

None

April 22nd. is going to roll around quick, so if you can't beat em, then join em.
You'll want to get your app. in asap, because it will only take one dork to ruin it for you guys (ie:interviewee shoots his mouth off about how AWAC pilots are really pi$$sed at Skywest).
What were you doing to keep the bar raised? ALPA and mgnt. played you big time. The 'boot in the butt strategy' will be used as an example against Mesa and Skywest to set a new standard shortly. We really have'nt seen a new low yet.
Ironically, the fact that Skywest pilots don't have a union probably was the reason they gained so much from this whole scam.

What are you doing with a house? Did you ever think your career with a commuter could reliably support a house and kids. That's just irresponsible. Rent an apartment and use birth control, or get a job with real stability. Yeah, you'll actually have to work, but that's what happens when you don't plan ahead.

Thank goodness this won't effect the senior guys. I hope you all can hang on long enough to get on with a big airline soon and put this experience behind you.

I am a regional pilot. Why dont you come over to my house so my kids can watch me wax your @ss all over my front yard! Just wanted to give you an invite and something to "plan ahead". You sure are a fvck!

 

[strega7]

jrod said this about the original AWAC,

It was broken apart into several pieces, one of which became ACA which is now Independence Air.

Wasn't ACA born of the Flinn Family and Westair? I know of a lot of Westair guys that were TDY'd to the eastcoast in the mighty Brasilia to get ACA started. Just curious about the details.

 

[DiverDriver]

jrod said this about the original AWAC,
Wasn't ACA born of the Flinn Family and Westair? I know of a lot of Westair guys that were TDY'd to the eastcoast in the mighty Brasilia to get ACA started. Just curious about the details.

Our Dash 8s were taken into service at ACA during that time. Our instructors on those planes were even used to do the training. Then furloughed.

I heard some of them stayed on with ACA but I'm not sure if that is true or not.