U Fly Mike / Bose Quiet 2 TSO issue

[SpyFlysDOTs]

Visited uflymike.com recently and they say they have a fix for the TSO issue, apparently approval is coming soon!

 

[bob_sakamano]

Visited uflymike.com recently and they say they have a fix for the TSO issue, apparently approval is coming soon!

Well that's good because mine would have to be pried from my cold, dead hands. U Fly Mike = Best invention EVER for commuters

 

[SpyFlysDOTs]

U fly mike

Wondering who moved this to the GA forum?
Thought I placed it in the regional forum, but then again, it was early and this is many days in a row of working

 

[FishandFly]

is there any way to not have it completely shut down when the batteries die?

 

[JMW]

The TSO will take care of that issue from what I hear.

 

[SpyFlysDOTs]

IM a BIG fan of this unit.
Best $500 I have ever spent in aviation.
No stock in the company, no interest, just a big fan, thats all!

 

[FishandFly]

If they can fix the problem of having the headset die when battery power runs out I'm all for it. The qc2 is far more comfortable than my sennheisers since they don't press down on my ears.

Does anyone know why ASA is giving us memo's about not using TSO'd headsets?

 

[mblackey]

We suspect that Bose is behind it.

There is no FAR requirement to use a TSO'd headset. Installed headsets/mikes, i.e., that come in the aircraft from the manufacturer AND that are on the MEL/CDL, must be TSO'd. They're kept in good order by your maintenance personnel.

For ASA, and other air carriers that have decided TSO'd headsets are required, ask your chief pilots what inspection, maintenance and repair program has been established to maintain those TSO'd headsets. You'll get a blank stare.

Without it, the requirement is meaningless.

Mike

 

[PBRstreetgang]

We suspect that Bose is behind it.

There is no FAR requirement to use a TSO'd headset. Installed headsets/mikes, i.e., that come in the aircraft from the manufacturer AND that are on the MEL/CDL, must be TSO'd. They're kept in good order by your maintenance personnel.

For ASA, and other air carriers that have decided TSO'd headsets are required, ask your chief pilots what inspection, maintenance and repair program has been established to maintain those TSO'd headsets. You'll get a blank stare.

Without it, the requirement is meaningless.

Mike

Again, more disinformation FAR 121.359(g)
(g) For those aircraft equipped to record the uninterrupted audio signals received by a boom or a mask microphone, the flight crewmembers are required to use the boom microphone below 18,000 feet mean sea level. No person may operate a large turbine engine powered airplane or a large pressurized airplane with four reciprocating engines manufactured after October 11, 1991, or on which a cockpit voice recorder has been installed after October 11, 1991, unless it is equipped to record the uninterrupted audio signal received by a boom or mask microphone in accordance with §25.1457(c)(5) of this chapter.

FAR 21.305 - Approval of materials, parts, processes, and appliances.

Whenever a material, part, process, or appliance is required to be approved under this chapter, it may be approved --

(a) Under a Parts Manufacturer Approval issued under §21.303;

(b) Under a Technical Standard Order issued by the Administrator. Advisory Circular 20-110 contains a list of Technical Standard Orders that may be used to obtain approval. Copies of the Advisory Circular may be obtained from the U.S. Department of Transportation, Publication Section (M-443.1), Washington, D.C. 20590;

(c) In conjunction with type certification procedures for a product; or

(d) In any other manner approved by the Administrator.


The Advisory Circular 20-110 does list "headset manufacturers" under TSO C57A that hold TSO approval for their headsets, alas, UflyMike does not appear. This issue is the same as 256KTS below 10,00ft MSL, legality vs practicality. Mike has a financial dog in this fight, mine is academic. He is pursuing a TSO, that says it all. If its not required why pursue something not required. Point, set, match! Remember its all good until something happens. You wanna be sittin' in your plane when the FAA walks up and says "Hi, I am here to help you", please show me your certificates, medical and....headset please. If you were gonna go fly a 121 operated flight and they wanna hold you to the letter of the regulations, you answer it yourself. I use a TSO approved and listed by part number headset. Oh yeah, continued airworthiness as well maintenence is set up in the TSO process, but I venture that Mike knows that.
Ola
PBR
P.S. For those questions about the FAA headset:
§ 125.317 Inspector's credentials: Admission to pilots' compartment: Forward observer's seat.

(a) Whenever, in performing the duties of conducting an inspection, an FAA inspector presents an Aviation Safety Inspector credential, FAA Form 110A, to the pilot in command of an airplane operated by the certificate holder, the inspector must be given free and uninterrupted access to the pilot compartment of that airplane. However, this paragraph does not limit the emergency authority of the pilot in command to exclude any person from the pilot compartment in the interest of safety.

(b) A forward observer's seat on the flight deck, or forward passenger seat with headset or speaker, must be provided for use by the Administrator while conducting en route inspections. The suitability of the location of the seat and the headset or speaker for use in conducting en route inspections is determined by the Administrator.

 

[mblackey]

PBRstreetgang,

Not sure the purpose of your quotes from the FARs, but they don't say a TSO'd headset is required, only a boom mike below FL180 and appropriate tie-ins to a CVR. FAR Part 25 describes how a TSO certification is acquired but no establishment of requirements for the use of TSO'd articles.

We are getting a TSO because it's easier than fighting the misinformed and trying to educate the masses that are under the misperception that a TSO means something. A TSO is not a TSO. There are 23 categories of testing just under RTCA/DO-160E. The FAA has no set requirements for which category/categories a TSO applicant must test their article under, e.g., the Bose X was only tested under 9 of the 23 categories. To further confuse the issue, there are numerous sub-categories, e.g., the Bose X is only certified to 15,000 MSL, one of the lowest sub-categories.

As far as maintenance, a TSO'd article that isn't maintained under approved maintenance procedures is no longer TSO'd, e.g., sending your altimeter out for repair. If it doesn't come back with the "yellow tag" paperwork, it's no longer a TSO'd article. Likewise, any modification by a third party must be TSO'd. Changing the earseals or adding a headband pad is technically in violation of FAR Part 25, Subpart O. You can see how ridiculous this gets.

You mentioned TSO-C57a. That's an old TSO. It was actually accompanied by TSO-C58a, also. Prior to them were TSO's-C57 and C58. The new TSO is C139. It replaces both C57a and C58a. If your air carrier doesn't recognize all those TSOs as being "legal" under their new guidance, someone needs to help them with their homework.

I believe you are referring to aircraft equipment when you refer to the jumpseat. That's a different deal than your personal headset. The handmikes and headsets installed in the aircraft are listed on the MEL/CDL and accountable by maintenance.

Mike

 

[PBRstreetgang]

PBRstreetgang,

Not sure the purpose of your quotes from the FARs, but they don't say a TSO'd headset is required, only a boom mike below FL180 and appropriate tie-ins to a CVR. FAR Part 25 describes how a TSO certification is acquired but no establishment of requirements for the use of TSO'd articles.

Again, FARS are what we operate under, BOOM mic. Period , dot end of sentence. Is your BOOM MIC TSO'd? No tie to FARs?
Lessee if there is a definition of a tire in the FARs Chap1(I am sure there is), and the owner of a airline thinks that BFG mud snow tires are a better choice than the Michelin tires that originally were installed on the A/C, its ok to use them? A TSO C-57A approved BOOM Mic is required below 18000 ft MSL, per the FARS.

We are getting a TSO because it's easier than fighting the misinformed and trying to educate the masses that are under the misperception that a TSO means something. A TSO is not a TSO. There are 23 categories of testing just under RTCA/DO-160E. The FAA has no set requirements for which category/categories a TSO applicant must test their article under, e.g., the Bose X was only tested under 9 of the 23 categories. To further confuse the issue, there are numerous sub-categories, e.g., the Bose X is only certified to 15,000 MSL, one of the lowest sub-categories.

Well,
I guess that you might not be as informed either, per TSO-C57A RTCA DO-170 is the TSO specified document used for testing.If a TSO is not a TSO why pursue one?

As far as maintenance, a TSO'd article that isn't maintained under approved maintenance procedures is no longer TSO'd, e.g., sending your altimeter out for repair. If it doesn't come back with the "yellow tag" paperwork, it's no longer a TSO'd article. Likewise, any modification by a third party must be TSO'd. Changing the earseals or adding a headband pad is technically in violation of FAR Part 25, Subpart O. You can see how ridiculous this gets.

Well, again you are wrong, the manufacturers original instructions that came with the TSO article contain the required information for maintenance to insure continued airworthiness. Most instructions for use state there are no user serviceable parts inside. Indeed when my Bose headset needed a new earcup yoke installed they required me to send them the headset for the repair, citing TSO requirements. (Which they repaired at no cost.) Changing ear seals is allowed by Bose, Adding anything else would be in violation of the FARs. This seems ridiculous, but is wisdom its self, how many time have you seen OSH aviation supply parts installed on a certificated A/C? I have seen hundreds of non approved aparts installed on A/C during 20+ years of inspections as an IA. Modification of a type designated A/C would require a form 337 if minor and if major, a FAA field approval.

You mentioned TSO-C57a. That's an old TSO. It was actually accompanied by TSO-C58a, also. Prior to them were TSO's-C57 and C58. The new TSO is C139. It replaces both C57a and C58a. If your air carrier doesn't recognize all those TSOs as being "legal" under their new guidance, someone needs to help them with their homework.

Agreed, TSO c 139 is the current standard, but the FARs still specify C-57 A. C 139 is for new applications.

I believe you are referring to aircraft equipment when you refer to the jumpseat. That's a different deal than your personal headset. The handmikes and headsets installed in the aircraft are listed on the MEL/CDL and accountable by maintenance.

No I wasn't, my reference was to illuminate the numerous questions about the "jumpseat" headset questions, the Jumpseat headset is not listed in our equipment list nor MEL

Mike

Again with the semantics, the hand mic does not satisfy the boom mic requirement, thats why the SOP, and the OPS specs require a HEADSET below 18000 msl for my airline. The FAA issues the ops specs and approves the SOP, that is how the headset gets on the plane. Your contract dictates the hows and whys of the headset issues, ie who provides it, you or the company.
PBR

 

[mblackey]

PBRstreetgang,

" Again with the semantics, the hand mic does not satisfy the boom mic requirement, thats why the SOP, and the OPS specs require a HEADSET below 18000 msl for my airline. The FAA issues the ops specs and approves the SOP, that is how the headset gets on the plane. Your contract dictates the hows and whys of the headset issues, ie who provides it, you or the company.
PBR"

Yes, that's the way it is with all air carriers, to my knowledge. Don't think anyone is arguing that a headset isn't required, as a minimum, below FL180 to meet the FAA requirements. Likewise, your air carrier may require those headsets to be TSO'd, but there's no FAA requirement to do so. There hasn't been a Fed yet that can provide a reference. An official query was sent to the FAA, through the SW Region FAA office and on to D.C. That was in Mar. There has still been no response from the FAA. The SW region office said "they couldn't answer that question..." YOU ARE READING WHAT YOU WANT TO SEE IN THE FARs.

BUT, if your air carrier requires it, they need to have maintenance procedures to maintain that TSO required headset. To my knowledge, no air carrier that requires TSO'd headsets has a maintenance program for pilots' personal headsets. Without that program, the requirement is pointless. Deferring this responsibility to each individual pilot isn't logical, either.

Here's another ridiculous point to throw into the pot: FAA medical will allow a pilot to continue to fly (ATP included) by correcting his hearing with hearing aids. Hearing aids aren't TSO'd AND they are battery powered. So, I have to use a TSO'd headset, even though I'm listening to it through my non-TSO'd hearing aids?

Last point. The BIGGER the print, the more CORRECT your information... As one of my boss's once told me, "YOU MAKE SOME GREAT DECISIONS...ON ABOUT HALF THE INFORMATION"

Mike

 

[AWACO]

I will take my chances with the ufly. Whats the worst that could happen? Loose my certs and not be able to do this wonderful job any more?

 

[DoubleDown]

When the Uflymike is TSO'd, will I have to get the ear pieces from UFly, or can I use the ones for my Ipod?

 

[mblackey]

Technically, you'll need to use the TSO'd earbuds we provide. Any earbuds will work, however.

Mike

 

[P-Dawg_QX]

I'm a little lost here. I'm still looking for the part in 121.359(g) where it says "approved/TSO'd/etc boom mike". I just see "boom mike". 21.305 is great and all, but where does it specify that the boom mike is a "material, part, process, or appliance that is required to be approved under this chapter"?

 

[ackattacker]

It seems to me that just something is required to be on the aircraft per "regulations" does not necessarily mean it has to be approved. For example, a 2-D cell flashlight is required per the regs but I've never heard of someone requiring a "TSO" flashlight. I was under the impression that things only need to be "TSO"'d or otherwise approved if they are required for the original *aircraft* certification.

The reg quoted below only says that the aircraft has to be equipped to record a boom mike, and that a crewmember has to use one. Not that the aircraft has to be equipped with a boom mike. This seems like semantics but I think it is an important distinction. Otherwise the aircraft manufacturer would be required to provide headsets and include them in the maintenance program, instead of allowing crewmembers to bring their own from home.

Our company requires us to bring an accurate timepiece. Next someone is going to tell me to go get a TSO watch...

Again, more disinformation FAR 121.359(g)
(g) For those aircraft equipped to record the uninterrupted audio signals received by a boom or a mask microphone, the flight crewmembers are required to use the boom microphone below 18,000 feet mean sea level. No person may operate a large turbine engine powered airplane or a large pressurized airplane with four reciprocating engines manufactured after October 11, 1991, or on which a cockpit voice recorder has been installed after October 11, 1991, unless it is equipped to record the uninterrupted audio signal received by a boom or mask microphone in accordance with §25.1457(c)(5) of this chapter.

 

[mblackey]

P-Dawg,

You're not lost. It doesn't say it. A boom mike is required below FL180... that's it. Purpose, obviously, is so that the CVR picks up any voice.

Mike

 

[Crizz]

in accordance with §25.1457(c)(5) of this chapter.

(5) As far as is practicable all sounds received by the microphone
listed in paragraphs (c)(1), (2), and (4) of this section must be
recorded without interruption irrespective of the position of the
interphone-transmitter key switch. The design shall ensure that sidetone
for the flight crew is produced only when the interphone, public address
system, or radio transmitters are in use.

That doesnt seem to mention TSO either.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Mike,
As usual just because the FAA hasn't provided you an answer, it must be ok. As far as the print , between the italics and bold I wanted to make sure there was a difference between your replies and mine, I would have used smaller but my 50 year old eyes couldn't read it. Argue it anyway you want, the FARs require a boom mic below 18000 ft. When was the last time certificate action was taken for 250 below 10000ft?
Get the STC which isn't a STC and let this dog lie.
PBR