Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

TWA Still Kickin'

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web

Counselair

"He said member..."
Joined
Nov 30, 2001
Posts
210
I got a little bored so I figured I'd stir the spit pot. Here comes the flame bait...

Posted on Thu, Jun. 12, 2003

American's layoff methods decried
By Maria Recio
Star-Telegram Washington Bureau
WASHINGTON _ In often-emotional testimony, former TWA workers facing massive layoffs accused American Airlines of lying in its promises of treating them fairly _ an accusation that found a receptive audience Thursday in Missouri senators at a congressional committee.

Sen. Kit Bond, R-Mo., chairing a hearing of the Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee, said it was "a story of how the once-promising combination of two airlines turned into a disaster for so many former TWA workers."

American Airlines acquired most of the assets of the bankrupt TWA in April 2001 and pledged to integrate TWA's 20,000 employees into the Fort Worth-based carrier's workforce. Since then, American has been slammed by the economic slowdown, terror attacks, a dropoff in business travel, the rise of discount carriers, the Iraq war, and the spread of SARS, and the Fort Worth airline has laid off thousands of employees.

Former TWA workers said they are disproportionately being hit with layoffs. American management maintained it did the best it could in urging its unions to combine the seniority lists in a fair manner; the lists determine the way layoffs are handed out.

"The simple fact is that there was no significant integration of the seniority lists," Bond said. "The flight attendants and most pilots were simply stapled to the bottom of the seniority lists, and when the cuts came, they came from the bottom up."

"The result: 60 percent of all former TWA pilots were stapled to the bottom of the seniority list at American Airlines," Bond said. "However, as poorly as the pilots were treated, it has been much worse for TWA's flight attendants. As of July 2, 2003, 100 percent of all former TWA flight attendants will have been furloughed by American Airlines _ that's nearly 4,200 employees."

One of the flight attendants facing furlough in July is Karen Schooling, who told the committee that she is a widow with a severely disabled son and is slated to lose her medical benefits after 30 days.

"I am facing total and complete financial devastation," Schooling said.

Flight attendant Sherry Cooper _ who served on the TWA board of directors as a labor representative, and filed suit last year over the treatment of the TWA flight attendants in the acquisition _ testified to the Senate committee that there were no negotiations on the seniority list, "zero, none, nada."

Speaking for American Airlines, Jeff Brundage, vice president of employee relations, said, "It was always our intent to provide jobs to the TWA workers until their retirement, and we did everything we could to put our newest employees on par with all other American employees."

Brundage blamed the downturn in the economy and the aftermath of the Sept. 11 attacks for the layoffs. And he emphasized that when TWA was on the ropes, "only American was willing to make a comprehensive proposal that saved the jobs of many TWA employees."

Later in the hearing, Brundage noted that before the acquisition, he had to reassure American workers about their job security.

"We were not going to make this transaction on the backs of American employees," he said.

That did not satisfy Bond, who read from a list of promises from American executives, including former chief executive Donald Carty, who was invited to testify but did not appear.

In response to Brundage's insistence that management had only encouraged its unions to treat TWA workers fairly, Bond said, "You were all over the middle of these negotiations and had a significant say in how they would come out."

The Missouri Republican, who is a member of the committee but not its chairman, was given the courtesy of chairing the hearing because of his home-state interest in the former St. Louis-based carrier. The only other senator attending the hearing was fellow Missouri Republican Sen. Jim Talent, who is not a member of the panel but was permitted to participate.

Talent, a former labor lawyer, said, "I look at this and ask `What happened? What happened?"

Capt. Edwin White, who was the lead negotiator on the seniority issue for the Allied Pilots Association, which represents American pilots, told the committee that the list settled on by APA was "an extremely fair expression of the legitimate and realistic career expectations of both pilot groups.

"In light of the fact that TWA was teetering on the verge of collapse and dissolution at the time of the asset purchase, the career expectations of the TWA pilots were infused with a much higher probability of furlough _ or even worse, permanent unemployment _ than the American pilots," White said.

Talent asked Brundage and White if they would be willing to go back to the table to re-do seniority lists to make them more equitable, but both American representatives declined.

Brundage said he had the choice of declining the seniority list presented by the unions and treating the TWA employees as "new hires _ a standing that would have cost them substantially in pay and benefits."

White said that the former TWA pilots had already filed suit in New Jersey and that Congress should let the courts decide.

Bond, who has tried and failed to pass legislation ordering mandatory arbitration on the lists, has not decided what he will do next.

"This was a fact-finding hearing to get to the bottom of some competing allegations," said Ernie Blazar, a Bond spokesman. "It's too early to say what else Bond will do."
 
Dual rated,

"*yawn*" is probably the most callous comment you could throw out there...Way to go...Never really saw the point of kicking someone in the teeth that way...

For the record, I frequently used the TWA jumpseat, and I think their pilots are really good people...sorry for what you're going through.
 
Thanks Steeler fan,

I agree with everything you have printed except for "Steeler Fan". Go Giants! Then again as I'm on my sixth airline and furloughed maybe my choices weren't always the best.:(

Counselair:D :D :D
 
Interesting Steeler Info

1. Bettis is at his lowest weight/best shape since 1997

2. Charlie Batch makes more $$ the Tommy Maddox this year.

3. Josh Miller (punter) makes more $$ than Tommy also

***Hopefully, this is a recipe for success

What's the difference between a old blanket and the Steeler secondary?

The blanket at least can cover something (and it has less holes in it)...Hopefully it won't be as bad this season!

"One for the thumb in 2004"
 
Well,

The TWA pilots will be around early to mid '89 hire. They've been flying as captains for several years now. The aa pilots were around early '00 hires. They've been off probation for a couple years now.

Now watch them all get on here and tell us how great they are, and they should all be Captains anyway, and the TWA people are losers because the company didn't make money, etc....

It is getting rather boring hearing the constant arrogance from the aa pilots, especially considering the shape the whole industry is in. Most Pilots I meet talk about how lucky they are to have jobs. Not the aa bunch, they just tell you how lucky you are to be in their presence!
 
steveg said:
Well,

The TWA pilots will be around early to mid '89 hire. They've been flying as captains for several years now. The aa pilots were around early '00 hires. They've been off probation for a couple years now.


sadly, you are off a bit....the first nAAtive aa pilots to be furloughed after the former TWA captains, 1988-1989 hires, currently being furloughed are April 9 , 2001 hires.........disgusting if you ask me.................
 
mach none said:
Do the furloughs go to the Reno people? Or are they already gone?

The Reno Air pilots have 2/99 hire dates, and I don't think the furloughs go back that far.
 
Nope all the Reno folks are safe, it's all a matter of timing. They were a finiacialy viable carrier (read not CH11 for the 3rd time). All of the pilots were stapled and not one is out on the street.

The TWA folks received a much better deal but due to circumstances outside the airlines control, well we all know the story

All of the Reno folks are north of "todays" no furlough line.

Let's keep beating that dead horse
 
Since aa is no longer a financially viable airline, where does that put you?

Also, since you guys can predict the future, why are you working for a financially struggling airline that is losing billions of dollars?

How does it feel when someone tells you your career expectations are zilch because your company is losing money, so you may as well start over?

Still don't get it that you are just a pilot, do you?
 
PS. It's only a dead horse to you, because you aren't affected. You aren't affected because of the TWA folks taking all the hits for you. It's pretty cold to call it a dead horse when thousands of folks have had their world turned upside down, lost everything they owned, gotten divorced, even committed suicide.

Your right though, we should all just forget it because it doesn't affect YOU. And YOU are tired of hearing about it. We all need to remember that the world revolves around aa pilots.
 
Originally posted by steveg
Since aa is no longer a financially viable airline, where does that put you?

G4G5
Let's see how many times has AA gone BK? So where does that put us? AA avoided BK during the darkest times in avaitaion history. TWA couldn't turn a profit during the days of record profits. Don't get me started.
-----------------------------------------------------

Also, since you guys can predict the future, why are you working for a financially struggling airline that is losing billions of dollars?

G4G5
Name one of these airlines that isn't loosing record profits. DAL, UAL, CAL, USAir, NWA, AWA I could go on and on. Hey Nostradamus should every pilot at every major carrier in the US (outside of B6 and LUV) quit and start selling insurnace?
____________________________________________


How does it feel when someone tells you your career expectations are zilch because your company is losing money, so you may as well start over?

G4G5
It's over for me, my number comes up within the next few months. Maybe I come back, maybe not. That's life I am getting furloughed by AA. Instead of sitting here crying about my once great TWA. I went out last month, hit the pavement, with my updated resume, in my new interview suit and found another job.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Still don't get it that you are just a pilot, do you?

G4G5
Get over yourself. You win some and you loose some. I watched my father and my uncle suffer over at Pan Am. The samething could eaisly happen to me at AA. It's part of just being a pilot.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

PS. It's only a dead horse to you, because you aren't affected. You aren't affected because of the TWA folks taking all the hits for you. It's pretty cold to call it a dead horse when thousands of folks have had their world turned upside down, lost everything they owned, gotten divorced, even committed suicide.

G4G5
I wasn't effected, Hello! It sure would have been nice to have the extra $742 million plus expenses, debt burden, cost of aquisition, yada yada (3.5 billion). That cash could have been used to help AA get through the tuff times. Instead Carty purchases TWA and look what happened(I was for the aquisition). Sure nobody could have predicted it, but it did happen. Can you honestly sit there and tell us that the aquisition of TWA has helped the AA employees? Or would a leaner AA(minus TWA) have been in a better economic position to survive a post 9/11 world?

Or are you trying to tell us that TWA could have made it through all of this and come out with out furloughing a single sole? Because from what I remember Compton is on record stating "there was NO WHITE KNIGHT". Karbau was going no where and the only other viable offer was coming for your uncle Carl who promissed that TWA would be "20-40% smaller".(this was the pre 9/11 estimate). If you are trying to tell us, a 3 time loser would have been better off, then most folks are going to tell you that it's time to change the water in you bong Cheech.

I am not cold, I feel for these people the same way I felt for my relatives at Pan Am. But this is reality, TWA was not the first and I am willing to say that they won't be the last. History is full of TWA's and we all are fully aware of this when we choose aviation as a profession. When I tell you to "stop beating a dead horse" I am down playing what the folks at TWA went through. What I am telling you to move on with your life. It's done, it's over. Let it rest.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Your right though, we should all just forget it because it doesn't affect YOU. And YOU are tired of hearing about it. We all need to remember that the world revolves around aa pilots.

G4G5
Again it's not about me, as of Aug 1, I will no longer be an AA pilot. So I guess the world will still stop revolving around me, LOL. And yes WE are tired of hearing about it.
 
Last edited:
Pilotbob3 said:
so g4g5 are you a 69'er or a 31'er?

Hi Bob,

A 31%er without a doubt.
 
G whatever,

Feel better? Obviously I struck some cords. Perhaps it's you who needs to get over himself. You seem very angry now that you are forced to realize that just because you are an aa pilot, the sun doesn't set on you.

I'm much happier now that I am away from aa and the great sense of entitlement that apparently goes with being an aa pilot. You are right about one thing, we would all have been better off never having had any thing to do with amr. My life is 100% better, I hope the same for you.

Another thing is for sure. If aa had not bought TWA, you would have been furloughed a couple of years ago. We would have both been on the street. You ever think about telling a TWA pilot you are glad they were here, so you could collect your precious aa check while they got axed first?

I thought not.

Good luck with your new job. I hope you can find a balance, and learn to handle difficulty in some way other than blaming TWA for everything.
 
I am not blaming TWA for anything, and I don't see all that many of the folks I fly with blaming TWA, the economy, 9/11, SARS, or the war for their current mis fortunes.

What I do see is a lot of TWA folks blaming AA for 20+ year of mis management, Carl, 3 bk's, the economy, yada yada. To the point where we now have to listen to Hearings again(yes, 2+ years after the fact) on the aquisition.

That was my point let it rest. I am not sorry that I am getting furloughed. I am not sorry that I turned down B6 to go to AA. That's life you move on.

I am happy to have found a great job and can turn the page saying been there, done that, got the uniform.

As far as the TWA folks saving my job. I will grant you that, for a lot of folks they were able to get a pay check for a lot longer. Thanks.

But for the approx 450 AA pilots that were hired after 4/11/01, who were hired and placed behind the aquired. You may want to thank them because every TWA FO hired (even the 23 year old with 2 weeks of seniority) will get recalled back to AA before they do. Or all of the 400+ Eagle pilots(most of which has 10+ years of service to AMR) who will now have to wait untill every TWA fo has a job before they can excerise their flow through numbers.

See it's a two way street but if you don't look in the rear view mirror then the ride is a whole lot smoother.
 
Last edited:
G4G5,

Sorry you're getting the axe too. Just curious, if you'd stayed at Delta would you have already been furloughed? (or NW, for that matter?)
 

Latest resources

Back
Top