TV Report: PILOTS ON FOOD STAMPS

[FlyingGuy]

It's amazing how topics as simple as reasonable pay can break down into idealogical rants on this board. Taxes and entitlement programs aren't the issue. To me its about reasonable pay for honest work. Personally even if I wasn't a pilot I wouldn't want the people driving the plane to be more worried about their finances than the thunderstorm ahead or the runway condition for landing. I want them to be making enough that they want to live up to that value not down to it. I feel the same for my nurses, cops and teachers though the pay for one career field is irrelevant to that in another. I'm sure most people would think an extra $20 a ticket is a bargain to ensure a better qualified pilot and a safer trip. Unfortunately the laymen believe the government and the companies wouldn't put a uniform on someone unless they were highly qualified. Would you go with the less experienced surgeon for your bypass operation to save a few bucks?

 

[Captain Morgan]

We're just all deep thinkers. No really, that is true. It does come down to us and our paychecks. We need to be compensated more, compensated appropriately.

CM

 

[highsky]

Highsky: Let me ask you this, do you put your whole life on hold until the time is right to start a family? If so, you'll be waiting a long long time. Also, what happens when/if your medical fails and you devoted your life only to flying/work and not developed a family? It's a devestating thing I'm sure and even worse doing it alone without a family to support you through it. I honestly want my wife working on my days off because she enjoys it and I would be there to clean the house/help out/take care of the child. I will not put my child in day care and I would live in a trailer park and eat ramen and tuna if that's the sacrifice that was required. I support women who stay home to take care of a family. I remember coming home from school to a day care because my mother had to work and I wished that I could've come home to someone. Unfortunately that wasn't how my life was made out to be and I want better for my children and there is no shame or anything wrong with that.

CM

PS: Maybe we should use your tax dollars to subsidize stay at home moms and families instead of destroying them through abortion and other negative family programs.

Dude, I was with you the whole way on that...until I read your postscript. You didn't need to go there.

I'm proud of you for building the family that you want: The family you didn't have as a child (nor did I). I'm also proud of you for living within your means by living in a trailer, or a van down by the river, and eating canned tuna if that's what it takes. All without outside assistance.

Sacrifice, hard-work, independence...The American Spirit

 

[Redmeat]

I'll tell you what my important priority is: Keeping the money I earn in MY pocket, not watching it get sucked into YOUR grocery cart.

Spoken like a true ignoramus.

I'd like to be there when life gives you a swift kick in the balls and 'hard work and spirit' become irrelevant factors in the situation.

It's because of morons like yourself that I and everyone else in my 'circle of trust' will be voting a STRAIGHT Democrat ticket in 08.

 

[Captain Morgan]

OK HighSky: I'll meet you halfway on that. I'll retract that statement because this is a pilot board and really that might not have belonged there. Even so, I still feel the way I previously said. That PS comment wasn't directed at you directly just so you know. It's just how I feel about social issues of today and trying to make a statement. Fly safe!

CM

 

[Future Furlough]

The reason pilots get paid chitty wages is because THEY ARE WILLING TO DO IT. You can't blame management.

Tell that to ASA pilots.

 

[JoeMerchant]

But that wouldn't jive with the historical trend of pilots being their own worst enemies now would it?

Management always banks on this and are always proved right.

Someone said it on this board somewhere else and it rings so true so many times:

'Pilots are the stupidest smart people'

BINGO!

Look at all of the union contracts with low first year rates. The fact is, the first year guys are sold out for the more senior rates. In ALPA negotiations they call it bargaining for the "unborn".

If being a teacher, or a firemen, or a cop is a better gig, then go do that instead.... that will fix the problem with pilot pay.... if we don't show up for class, the pay will go up....

Instead I suspect we will continue to show up for class, and then b!tch about how bad we are getting screwed......

 

[capt. megadeth]

Being a stay at home mom does not make a woman lazy. In my opinion, it shows where your priorities are. My daughter is more important than money, and it was worth being on food assistance to have my wife at home with her.

It's one of my biggest pet peeves when people treat my wife as if she's lazy or stupid for being a stay at home mom. She's very capable and had a professional career before she sacrificed it for something more important.

If you're a "modern woman" flying a big ol 767 and making bank, enjoy your money and prestige, more power to you. Just don't disrespect my wife for having different priorities.

Where did anyone disrespect her?

 

[GuppyWN]

Mega.

I gotta agree with time builder. I don't want a daycare raising my kids.

Gup

 

[capt. megadeth]

Not only that, but my church recommended that my wife stay at home, imagine that.

WOO HOOO! I don't give a frog's fat a$$ what a church says. It's filled with some of the biggest hippocrites in the world. I would do the opposite of what a church told me to do.

 

[instructordude]

WOO HOOO! I don't give a frog's fat a$$ what a church says. It's filled with some of the biggest hippocrites in the world. I would do the opposite of what a church told me to do.[/quote]


Really???? :laugh:

 

[highsky]

Spoken like a true ignoramus.

I'd like to be there when life gives you a swift kick in the balls and 'hard work and spirit' become irrelevant factors in the situation.

It's because of morons like yourself that I and everyone else in my 'circle of trust' will be voting a STRAIGHT Democrat ticket in 08.

The first two sentences alone told me how you'd be voting.

Imbecile.

 

[Captain Morgan]

Cpt. Megadeth: Actually it's not the churches fault, people believe what they want and take the ideologies that they want and leave the rest. Hence the term "Cafeteria Catholic." But I respect that you believe what you want. Let's talk about airplanes now, isn't that why we're here?

 

[Box-Hauler]

How about getting to the root of the problem. The RJ. This piece of crap has caused our industry more heartache and pain than a bad mexican meal.

The RJ has given rise to "the shiny jet syndrome" Now guys will cut off a nut to get into a jet. It has caused the majors to "down size" due to the fact that an RJ will do a "short" flight. The RJ drivers get paid less than the Major pilots do. They are flying routes once served by Major pilots. The unions needed to put up a scope clause limiting the types of routes a commuter can do for them. Not a very good comparison but TWA had a scope clause limiting its commuters on the speed of the aircraft. I assume the logic was if it went to fast it could take away a mainline route. (wow that is exactly what happened, no more baby 9's flying for a mainline, just POS RJ's).

Please do not take any of this as an insult to the fine pilots who actually fly an RJ. When I was at the commuters I would have loved to fly any jet. This rant is my opinion on how we have gotten to the point of low pay. When the commuters had props flying routes the pay was low. The difference was that the majors had "small jets" serving markets that were to large for the props. This meant more jobs at the majors which meant more turnover at the commuters. With the higher turnover the poor starting pay did not matter as much. Guys were spending less time as an F/O due to the fact you could upgrade in less than a year.

This is how one type of A/C has changed our industry forever. It has given rise to the Skybus and Virgin airlines. The same person who jumped at the chance to fly the new RJ is now jumping at the chance to fly the new A320. As for charging more to the pax, I believe that most people would pay $5 more so that the guys up front are making a livable wage. The problem is getting the $5 from the management to the pilots.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

The economy now is totally dependent on air travel. Air travel now moves 40% in dollar value of the national GDP. No other profession has that kind of economic impact. That's why this profession is going the way it is. What's bad for us is good for the rest of the economy.

 

[Dizel8]

The economy now is totally dependent on air travel. Air travel now moves 40% in dollar value of the national GDP. No other profession has that kind of economic impact. That's why this profession is going the way it is. What's bad for us is good for the rest of the economy.

Well, the economy is also highly dependent on the kind of infrastructure FDX, UPS etc. provides and it is good for them and the economy. Hence I disagree with you deduction, inasmuch that if airtravel is so important, then the customer should be willing to pay more, but he/she isn't.

Air travel is important, but it is in many cases discretionary spending, in other words, the first to go when the economy is in the dumps, so how important is it really?

 

[SkyNation]

I made @25K my first year at a regional.

Made @53K second year, still as an FO.

Third year now, as CA I'll make mid-80K range.

it's all about credit vs. block.

 

[bluefishbeagle]

At a commuter in Central cal early 80's we in fact qualified for food stamps...as the company recieved got wind of it they gave us a raise...5 dollard above the qualifying threshold....and they complained when the yearly pilot turnover was 108%

In the mid 80's Eastern Air Lines did the same thing to get their FA's off food stamps.

Sad that now the bar is so low that pilots are in the same boat.

 

[capt. megadeth]

PS: Maybe we should use your tax dollars to subsidize stay at home moms and families instead of destroying them through abortion and other negative family programs.

Don't worry, we already do that. It's called welfare and it's out of control.

What kills me about all you guys that want your wife to stay at home with the kids but when divorce time comes, you are b!tching that she's taking you to the cleaners. What do you expect? You have a woman completely dependent on someone else for money for years and with no skills. Now, she is supposed to just go out there and make it without you and your money. You reap what you sow.

 

[capt. megadeth]

I'm sure most people would think an extra $20 a ticket is a bargain to ensure a better qualified pilot and a safer trip.

LOL! That's funny right there. Yeah right. They'd
b!tch about it because they think we are all paid $300K a year.

 

[capt. megadeth]

It's because of morons like yourself that I and everyone else in my 'circle of trust' will be voting a STRAIGHT Democrat ticket in 08.

Have fun seeing more of your tax dollars going buh bye for more illegitimate children and drug addicts.

 

[Redmeat]

Have fun seeing more of your tax dollars going buh bye for more illegitimate children and drug addicts.

That's fine.

Maybe we can straighten one or two out and I won't find my car window broken out in the employee parking lot one day. That would be money well spent. I don't see where the current Admin has done me any favors. I voted for W twice and I voted for his dad.

Dubbya is OBVIOUSLY anti-labor. That is a NO GO in my book.

Time to see what the Dems can do for us.

 

[capt. megadeth]

That's fine.

Maybe we can straighten one or two out and I won't find my car window broken out in the employee parking lot one day. That would be money well spent. I don't see where the current Admin has done me any favors. I voted for W twice and I voted for his dad.

Dubbya is OBVIOUSLY anti-labor. That is a NO GO in my book.

Time to see what the Dems can do for us.

Well taxes going up isn't fine for me but I'll buy the rest.

 

[PCL_128]

Have fun seeing more of your tax dollars going buh bye for more illegitimate children and drug addicts.

At most, all of us would see maybe a 5% increase in our tax burden. I would wager less than that. The Dems will likely start out by raising corporate and dividend taxes, then move on to raising the top two income tax brackets (very few pilots fit into those brackets). As a result, though, we would have an NMB that would allow us the leverage to achieve far more than a 5% gain in total compensation.

I've never voted for a Dem for any national office before, but I expect to vote almost straight "D" next year. I've held out as long as possible, but Bush and his Republican buddies have just beaten us down too much. Time to take some back.

 

[ratherbeflyen]

Ual's first year pay with a family of 5 qualifies you for food stamps. Check the numbers!

When you get hired at XJT you have to fill out paper work for public assistance in Ohio. You can apply for it on the spot or decline it. Years ago pilots were getting foodstamps in uniform so management made provisions for you to your help some other way.

 

[CA1900]

Well taxes going up isn't fine...

Somebody has to pay for W's runaway spending rampage...

 

[JoeMerchant]

At most, all of us would see maybe a 5% increase in our tax burden. I would wager less than that. The Dems will likely start out by raising corporate and dividend taxes, then move on to raising the top two income tax brackets (very few pilots fit into those brackets). As a result, though, we would have an NMB that would allow us the leverage to achieve far more than a 5% gain in total compensation.

I've never voted for a Dem for any national office before, but I expect to vote almost straight "D" next year. I've held out as long as possible, but Bush and his Republican buddies have just beaten us down too much. Time to take some back.

You've become a "tax and spend" liberal just like the rest of the AFL-CIO robots......

Many of us would be affected by the tax raises you just said would be OK..... I am in the top 10% of W2 earners and I am at ASA.... I bet more than you know would be affected....

By the way, I was on the negotiating committee in 1998 with a DEMOCRATIC NMB and they wouldn't release us either..... The NMB Chair was a Clinton appointee and a former AFA MEC Chair.....They would not release us.... it was only a WOE campaign that got us what we have today.... something most pilots aren't willing to do....

More regulation, spending, and taxation isn't the solution.....

 

[capt. megadeth]

I've held out as long as possible, but Bush and his Republican buddies have just beaten us down too much. Time to take some back.

I agree but I don't trust the democrats either. None of them give a crap about you and I. Furthermore, any tax increase is too much. If anything, the tax rate needs to come down and the government needs to become more efficient instead of wasting money. I know that's a pipe dream, but that's what I think.

 

[PCL_128]

You've become a "tax and spend" liberal just like the rest of the AFL-CIO robots......

Call me whatever you want, but I'm tired of being beaten down just so the super-rich can make their next billion. Things are no longer "trickling down" like they're supposed to, Joe.

Many of us would be affected by the tax raises you just said would be OK..... I am in the top 10% of W2 earners and I am at ASA.... I bet more than you know would be affected....

You wouldn't be affected, and neither would 95% of the pilots out there. I made 62k last year, but I was only taxed on 35k because of all the deductions. Getting into the top brackets requires a massive amount of income.

By the way, I was on the negotiating committee in 1998 with a DEMOCRATIC NMB and they wouldn't release us either..... The NMB Chair was a Clinton appointee and a former AFA MEC Chair.....They would not release us.... it was only a WOE campaign that got us what we have today.... something most pilots aren't willing to do....

More regulation, spending, and taxation isn't the solution.....

Joe, offer anecdotal examples all you want, but the facts speak for themselves. This administration tried to force through a rider on a bill that would have made transportation worker strikes a terrorist act! Dubya famously said "no airline strikes on my watch.' The Republicans are fighting endlessly to kill the EFCA. I could go on forever on this. The fact is, the modern-day Republicans have taken labor-hating to an all new high. I hate the Dems on tons of issues (gun control, abortion, gay marriage, welfare, healthcare, etc...), but it's gotten to the point where labor has been beaten down so much that we've got to put aside the other issues for an election cycle or two and just think about our careers. If we don't, then we're going to watch the entire middle class in this country slip into the abyss.

 

[PCL_128]

I agree but I don't trust the democrats either. None of them give a crap about you and I.

Of course they don't care about us. Nobody in Washington cares about the little guy. But, they do care about winning elections, and the Dems win elections by sucking up to labor, trial lawyers, environmentalists, etc... They don't actually care about any of this stuff, but that's where their money comes from, so that's who they'll support. A Dem President would thank the AFL-CIO for their support by naming labor-friendly members to the NMB and NLRB. The Dems in Congress would thank their labor contributors by passing the EFCA and other labor-friendly legislation. They won't do it because they care about us; they'll do it so they can continue to get our votes next time.

We have to learn to play the game and stop acting like a bunch of idealists. Sadly, it's just the way things work.

Furthermore, any tax increase is too much. If anything, the tax rate needs to come down and the government needs to become more efficient instead of wasting money. I know that's a pipe dream, but that's what I think.

I agree with you. But it's never going to happen. Government spending will never decrease, and government programs will never be cut. That's just reality. Voting for Republicans in some vain hope that they'll actually do these things is insanity. The Republicans are getting their money from the super-rich, and that's exactly who they'll support. We don't even show up on their radar.