TV Report: PILOTS ON FOOD STAMPS

[Sticky]

First year teachers where I live make around $40K/yr. Cops, a little more with signing bonuses.

Why should a pilot work 90 hours a month to get this kind of pay? It would be different if he/she was able to be home every night, working 40 duty hours per week.

Are you considering income tax? When I had a 9 to 5 job with a salary of $50K, I walked home with $2,800 a month. These days with second year pay at my regional is $31. After per diem, I walk home with about $2,500.

Apples to apples...one could argue that I make equal to someone with a $45K salary.

Now....an income equal to a $45K salary for a airline pilot in the year 2007 is shameful/pathetic. The minimum pay should be at LEAST enough to support a family.

 

[NEDude]

[He then went on to say that you can only earn 80 hours per month?? WTF?? I think 95 + would be a more accurate credit projection for most regional contracts./QUOTE]

Hmm, last I checked, under 121 rules you could only fly 1000 hours per year. Divide 1000 by 12 months and you get 83.3 hours per month to time out at the end of the year. It may happen that some guys do time out, but I have yet to meet someone actually do it. We did have a guy do it four years in row at Air Wisconsin, but he got fired because he was caught popping circut breakers to keep the ACARS still logging block time while parked at the gate (true story).

 

[XJohXJ]

Hey SplitBar,

I hate to say it, but you've gotta know you are significantly wrong when you have InstructorDude agreeing with you!

By the way, I'm on 3rd year FO pay at Mesaba and am making significantly less than a school teacher (my teacher friends laugh at my pay, and I will still earn less than them when I upgrade to SF3 Capt). Furthermore, I'm only earning about 50% of median pay for the MSP metro area (in other words, way way way below average pay.)

 

[AWACoff]

[He then went on to say that you can only earn 80 hours per month?? WTF?? I think 95 + would be a more accurate credit projection for most regional contracts./QUOTE]

Hmm, last I checked, under 121 rules you could only fly 1000 hours per year. Divide 1000 by 12 months and you get 83.3 hours per month to time out at the end of the year. It may happen that some guys do time out, but I have yet to meet someone actually do it. We did have a guy do it four years in row at Air Wisconsin, but he got fired because he was caught popping circut breakers to keep the ACARS still logging block time while parked at the gate (true story).

He was not fired. He left for a corporate job in Wisconsin. Don't post rumors and hearsay.

 

[whymeworry?]

Sad that this former NWA pilot couldn't get his facts straight before he discredited himself on CNBC. He 1st said that starting regional FO pay is $16 - $20 per hour when in fact a more accurate range is $22-$25 per hour for starting pay. He then went on to say that you can only earn 80 hours per month?? WTF?? I think 95 + would be a more accurate credit projection for most regional contracts. Most 2nd year regional FO's are making more than 2nd Year school teachers, Financial Advisors, Police Officers, Retail Managers, ect. ect.... In fact... average 2nd year regional FO pay out pays the average pay for a college graduate entry level job. Look ahead a few years for Regional Captain pay and you are way above average median income.

So you like flying 95 hrs a month?

1) You obviously don't have a family.
2) You will never be able to sustain 95 hrs permantly. It will catch up with you. Especially once you go int'l.


So it appears the NW guy is right. 80 hours is the norm

 

[SplitBar]

So you like flying 95 hrs a month?

1) You obviously don't have a family.
2) You will never be able to sustain 95 hrs permantly. It will catch up with you. Especially once you go int'l.


So it appears the NW guy is right. 80 hours is the norm

Someone please explain to whymeworry the difference between blocking 95 hours per month as opposed to crediting 95 hour per month. Clearly he missed the part where I said "credit 95 hours", I never said anything about blocking 95 hours. Sorry your contract doesn't differentiate. I guess I'm not suprised when all my buddies at CAL tell me how much their work rules suck. I usually fly 75 hours and credit 105 and it's not too hard to do.

 

[SplitBar]

Hey SplitBar,

I hate to say it, but you've gotta know you are significantly wrong when you have InstructorDude agreeing with you!

By the way, I'm on 3rd year FO pay at Mesaba and am making significantly less than a school teacher (my teacher friends laugh at my pay, and I will still earn less than them when I upgrade to SF3 Capt). Furthermore, I'm only earning about 50% of median pay for the MSP metro area (in other words, way way way below average pay.)

No doubt that pilot pay needs to and will go up from where it is now. It's simple supply and demand. Thousands are lined up to fly for CAL and NWA for $30 per hour, and at CAL you don't even get insurance for the first 6 months. Nonetheless, the supply and demand allows them to get away with it. Same thing at the regionals. As a 3rd year XJ SF340 Captain you should easily make $50K per year and that is what the median "FAMILY HOUSEHOLD" Income is for Minneapolis. I'm not sayint the pay shouldn't be more...I'm just saying it isn't food stamp wages like the news clip reported. So how is 50k per year "way way way below average pay" How are you defining average pay and what are you comparing it to? Regionals are hiring anyone with the time now....it doesn't take a 4 year degree anymore. Be sure to compare apples to apples.

 

[highsky]

The reason pilots get paid chitty wages is because THEY ARE WILLING TO DO IT. You can't blame management. Their job is not to give pilots an amazing quality of life and make them all millionaires. Their job is to produce a product for the lowest possible cost, to provide the maximum ROI for the stockholders. That is how they are evaluated.

So in a freemarket economy, how much is an airline pilot worth? About $18,000. Why? Again, because you can always find somebody who is willing to fly jets around the world, flying to exotic places, working with (sometimes) attractive flight attendants, for $18,000 per year. The ONLY way WE defeat that freemarket economy principle is by collective bargaining.

I'm not pointing fingers. I've done it myself. Many years ago, I flew cancelled checks in Florida for $2.30 cents per hour. Four lines of thunderstorms every day...no weather radar. I never didn't go because of the weather. Why? Because if I didn't, there were 5000 guys waiting in line behind me who would. Looking back, I can't believe I did that. But that's easy now. Not so easy when you're 23 and desperate to make it in this difficult business.

That's when I learned the value of unions. We had no union there. And we were complete whores.

Seems nowadays the principle of unions has been lost. It's not about the American Pilots' Union, or ALPA, or Southwest Pilot's Union, or the IPA, or whatever... It's about realizing that WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER. No matter what our union affiliation. We shouldn't be competing against one another. We need to be supporting each other, and rooting for pilot groups of every other airline to get HUGE contract improvements. Obviously, that raises the bar for ALL OF US.

 

[Lear70]

I'm not sayint the pay shouldn't be more...I'm just saying it isn't food stamp wages like the news clip reported.

Yes, it is,,, 1st year.

I've SEEN the food stamps with my own 2 eyes working at PCL. 1st year F/O with a wife and kids (if the wife doesn't work) DOES fall under the median poverty level and they DO qualify.

This occurs at many regionals 1st year. No amount of later pay in your career justifies the abysmal compensation offered by many airlines, including some Legacy carriers.

Personally, I hope the pilot supply trickles so low it forces more than a couple regionals out of business and eventually raises those pay rates. The only people (other than pilots) I know who made less than $45,000 their 1st year after graduating college are the ones who didn't bother to plan ahead and job search.

Not to mention the geniuses that go spend $100,000+ on a "tech school" to get all their ratings and don't even have a degree to show for it. Pay THOSE student loan payments while making less than $50,000 a year with a family. Ain't happening.

 

[frapper]

The guy was saying that starting pay at a regional qualifies for food stamps. We're not talking about captains. I know that we still start out at $19/hr at ASA -- do the math. The guy was a former pilot trying to help out our industry. You should just be thanking him, not trying to discredit him!

No doubt that pilot pay needs to and will go up from where it is now. It's simple supply and demand. Thousands are lined up to fly for CAL and NWA for $30 per hour, and at CAL you don't even get insurance for the first 6 months. Nonetheless, the supply and demand allows them to get away with it. Same thing at the regionals. As a 3rd year XJ SF340 Captain you should easily make $50K per year and that is what the median "FAMILY HOUSEHOLD" Income is for Minneapolis. I'm not sayint the pay shouldn't be more...I'm just saying it isn't food stamp wages like the news clip reported. So how is 50k per year "way way way below average pay" How are you defining average pay and what are you comparing it to? Regionals are hiring anyone with the time now....it doesn't take a 4 year degree anymore. Be sure to compare apples to apples.

 

[Beetle007]

No doubt that pilot pay needs to and will go up from where it is now.

It won't go up with attitudes like yours. You act like as supply decreases pay will obviously go up. I think it is more likely that the pay will decrease (when adjusted to inflation) and that the quality of applicants will simply decrease. We have already seen this happen in the Regional industry. Look at how the minimums have dropped across the board.

Some airlines in Euruope love to hire 250 hr pilots straight into the A320 and B737 as part of their cadet programs. It saves them lots of money.

 

[Redmeat]

The guy was a former pilot trying to help out our industry. You should just be thanking him, not trying to discredit him!

But that wouldn't jive with the historical trend of pilots being their own worst enemies now would it?

Management always banks on this and are always proved right.

Someone said it on this board somewhere else and it rings so true so many times:

'Pilots are the stupidest smart people'

 

[CKJET]

[He then went on to say that you can only earn 80 hours per month?? WTF?? I think 95 + would be a more accurate credit projection for most regional contracts./QUOTE]

Hmm, last I checked, under 121 rules you could only fly 1000 hours per year. Divide 1000 by 12 months and you get 83.3 hours per month to time out at the end of the year. It may happen that some guys do time out, but I have yet to meet someone actually do it. We did have a guy do it four years in row at Air Wisconsin, but he got fired because he was caught popping circut breakers to keep the ACARS still logging block time while parked at the gate (true story).

I have loged 1000 in a year once, At Tower Air two or three guys a year would do it. It was long hard International flying, not up and down all day in a RJ but it has been done. Of course this came with having to live in Saudia Arabia evey Nov/Dec for the hadj flying but you could rack the hours up there if you wanted. However it was not at anything near Food Stamp wages once you got into extended duty time etc....

As long as guys/gals keep running to the reginols for these wages they will keep paying them.

 

[Beetle007]

The biggest thing we are missing is that, in other industries, people only have to start at the bottom once. If they switch companies, they almost always start at the same or higher pay. I don't have any friends that have ever left a company for a pay cut.

How many pilots in this industry will be privileged enough to work for one regional and one major their entire career? Most will start at the bottom several times. This is the biggest reason that starting pay at every airline needs to be raised.

Of course, this industry is all about the ME. Why should I care what the starting pay at my company is after I have been here a few years?

 

[superrav]

if you have to fly 95 hours a month to make a living well then i think there is a problem. We should be making a decent living at our monthly guarantee...I'm glad that the NWA pilot was on there..its about time the public heard of our poor wages.

 

[capt. megadeth]

I've SEEN the food stamps with my own 2 eyes working at PCL. 1st year F/O with a wife and kids (if the wife doesn't work) DOES fall under the median poverty level and they DO qualify.

Here's part of the problem.

The wife needs to GET her a$$ to work on the husband's days off. This wife at home $hit is just what it is....$hit! When the going gets though, Suzie needs to get off her a$$ and contribute. For Christ's sake, I don't get it how you guys let your wives get away with this bu!!$hit!

 

[SplitBar]

Yes, it is,,, 1st year.

I've SEEN the food stamps with my own 2 eyes working at PCL. 1st year F/O with a wife and kids (if the wife doesn't work) DOES fall under the median poverty level and they DO qualify.

This occurs at many regionals 1st year. No amount of later pay in your career justifies the abysmal compensation offered by many airlines, including some Legacy carriers.

Personally, I hope the pilot supply trickles so low it forces more than a couple regionals out of business and eventually raises those pay rates. The only people (other than pilots) I know who made less than $45,000 their 1st year after graduating college are the ones who didn't bother to plan ahead and job search.

Not to mention the geniuses that go spend $100,000+ on a "tech school" to get all their ratings and don't even have a degree to show for it. Pay THOSE student loan payments while making less than $50,000 a year with a family. Ain't happening.

So with a wife and multiple kids you accepted a job that pays food stamp wages? Sad you had nothing else going on for yourself.

If no amout of pay later in your career justifies for the abysmal pay then why did you do it? You are nothing more than a hypicrot for preaching on your soap box whilst at the same time you were the one who flew for food stamp wages. My 1st year at a regional I didn't need foodstamps and I doubt I qualified.

As far as $100,000 to get your ratings without going to college, again Lear70 you show your ignorance and prove you are the biggest tool on flightinfo. Keep posting away pal, I'm sure you will catch up with your idol, General Lee, really soon.

 

[time builder]

Been on food assistance, lived in subsidized housing, and I even had my loans paid off and a few thousand in savings before starting my first job. What can I say, it's reality, many new pilots are on welfare, plain and simple (and utterly disgraceful).

Talking to a former co-worker a couple months ago I asked "Have you seen The Pursuit of Happyness? I'm sure all of us can relate to that at one time or another, except the part about being homeless."

"What are you talking about?" he asked, "when we picked up ______ he was living in a tent on Lake Mead."

"Oh, right, I forgot about that."

 

[GuppyPuppy]

Here's part of the problem.

The wife needs to GET her a$$ to work on the husband's days off. This wife at home $hit is just what it is....$hit! When the going gets though, Suzie needs to get off her a$$ and contribute. For Christ's sake, I don't get it how you guys let your wives get away with this bu!!$hit!

Would you be my sugar momma?

GP

 

[Captain Morgan]

The wife needs to GET her a$$ to work on the husband's days off.

Wanna get married Cpt. Mega??? J/K.

Finally a girl that get's it in today's world. I'm actually married with a baby on the way and my wife is a nurse. She works 2 days a week for 12 hour shifts. She brings home as much as I do. All she has to do is work one more day a week and she brings home 50k+ I'm trying to get her to do that while I think of how to get back into the 121 world and all I get is bitching. That doesn't stop her from coming home from the parents on Southwest and saying, "babe, do whatever it takes to get to Southwest..." I tell her, "Hon, you couldn't handle what I would have to do to get to Southwest." and then I just laugh and walk away.

CM

 

[HalinTexas]

Are you considering income tax? When I had a 9 to 5 job with a salary of $50K, I walked home with $2,800 a month. These days with second year pay at my regional is $31. After per diem, I walk home with about $2,500.

Apples to apples...one could argue that I make equal to someone with a $45K salary.

Now....an income equal to a $45K salary for a airline pilot in the year 2007 is shameful/pathetic. The minimum pay should be at LEAST enough to support a family.

No. Taxes vary based on total income and deductions.

Excuse me, but per diem is not supposed to be counted as "income." It's to reimburse you for meals and incidentals. If you go to the CONUS pages at the IRS you might be able to deduct still more from your income taxes based on P/D shortfalls.

I am once again counting on P/D to supplement my income, but that's not how it supposed to be. I also use those funds to budget my commuter hotels each month. Most employers give P/D when they send their employees out.

Don't use P/D payments when arguing pilot payrate comparisons. It's a specious argument. For example, when you are on reserve, you're not getting P/D. Many airlines don't give P/D when flying turns. If you also go to training in the same city as your base you won't get P/D. You might not even get a hotel paid for.

 

[capt. megadeth]

Wanna get married Cpt. Mega??? J/K.

Finally a girl that get's it in today's world. I'm actually married with a baby on the way and my wife is a nurse. She works 2 days a week for 12 hour shifts. She brings home as much as I do. All she has to do is work one more day a week and she brings home 50k+ I'm trying to get her to do that while I think of how to get back into the 121 world and all I get is bitching. That doesn't stop her from coming home from the parents on Southwest and saying, "babe, do whatever it takes to get to Southwest..." I tell her, "Hon, you couldn't handle what I would have to do to get to Southwest." and then I just laugh and walk away.

CM

Why isn't she working full time now before the baby comes? Sock away as much as you can now. Just make sure when the little bundle of joy comes, she doesn't quit. She's got the perfect job for you to get back into Part 121 flying. There is NO excuse for her to not be able to work on your days off especially since there is a severe nursing shortage.

 

[Lear70]

So with a wife and multiple kids you accepted a job that pays food stamp wages? Sad you had nothing else going on for yourself.

I didn't say that I had done it, I said I had SEEN it, genius. I've never applied for food stamps, never had to, thank God, and knock on wood.

If no amout of pay later in your career justifies for the abysmal pay then why did you do it? You are nothing more than a hypicrot for preaching on your soap box whilst at the same time you were the one who flew for food stamp wages.

You're not real quick on the uptake, are you?

First, it's spelled "Hypocrite".

Second, no, I never did that. I was hired in as a street Captain into the CRJ after getting furloughed from the Captain's seat of a 727 when Express One died in 2001 (see EOI thread on page 2 or 3 of the major's section right now).

Yes, you can take your foot out of your mouth now.

Idiot.

As far as $100,000 to get your ratings without going to college, again Lear70 you show your ignorance and prove you are the biggest tool on flightinfo.

I was talking about getting your ratings and going through one of the "Puppy Mills" like Gulfstream. Having flown with these pilots, I have direct knowledge of it, so yes, I know EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

Not to mention that no one's really defending you on here... Who does that make the "tool"? Or maybe it's the whole d*mn shed?

Keep posting away pal, I'm sure you will catch up with your idol, General Lee, really soon.

Never. Been on this board for several years, the General posts 3 times as much as I do. But thanks, anyway.

p.s. Mega, the hardest part about the wife working is when you have 2 infants and the wife didn't graduate college and doesn't bring in enough to justify working.

An infant costs between $500-600 a month to take care of during the work day. 2 of those = $1,200 a month. About the best a non-college graduate does in TN is $3,000 a month pre-tax, $1,900 a month after taxes, insurance, and 401(k).

That means she's actually only making $175 a week after covering the childcare bills, or about $35 a day. Why bother?

This is all from one of the guys I flew with who was a 1st year guy at PCL trying to cover his budget. I actually helped set him up with an eBay business for his wife and she started making $200-300 a week, but I did see his point if they hadn't had that.

 

[time builder]

Being a stay at home mom does not make a woman lazy. In my opinion, it shows where your priorities are. My daughter is more important than money, and it was worth being on food assistance to have my wife at home with her.

It's one of my biggest pet peeves when people treat my wife as if she's lazy or stupid for being a stay at home mom. She's very capable and had a professional career before she sacrificed it for something more important.

If you're a "modern woman" flying a big ol 767 and making bank, enjoy your money and prestige, more power to you. Just don't disrespect my wife for having different priorities.

 

[NEDude]

He was not fired. He left for a corporate job in Wisconsin. Don't post rumors and hearsay.

If it was rumors then I apologize. I don't know his name, but the story came right from a member of the Air Wisconsin ALPA leadership whom I was flying with. If you can't take your union leadership at face value when it comes to stuff like this then I guess they are worthless.

 

[highsky]

Being a stay at home mom does not make a woman lazy. In my opinion, it shows where your priorities are. My daughter is more important than money, and it was worth being on food assistance to have my wife at home with her.

So I guess it's up to all of us, the American Taxpayers, to subsidize your dinner table so that your wife can enjoy more time at home with your daughter?

She's very capable and had a professional career before she sacrificed it for something more important.

If you're a "modern woman" flying a big ol 767 and making bank, enjoy your money and prestige, more power to you. Just don't disrespect my wife for having different priorities.

I'll tell you what my important priority is: Keeping the money I earn in MY pocket, not watching it get sucked into YOUR grocery cart.

We all have choices to make in life Pard. Put the wife to work and the daughter in day care, or get used to eating a lot of canned tuna and Top Ramen.

It's not OUR responsibility to bail YOU out.

 

[XJohXJ]

SplitBar:

Regarding median pay, I was working off of incorrect numbers. You were right, as Captain I will earn around median earnings, and don't get me wrong I am looking forward to the raise! However, even as a 3rd yr. FO, I earn slightly less than (individual) median pay.

Mainly I was just razzing because Instructor Dude agreed with you.

Cheers!

 

[time builder]

So I guess it's up to all of us, the American Taxpayers, to subsidize your dinner table so that your wife can enjoy more time at home with your daughter?

We all have choices to make in life Pard. Put the wife to work and the daughter in day care, or get used to eating a lot of canned tuna and Top Ramen.

It's not OUR responsibility to bail YOU out.

You'll be relieved to know that it was church welfare, so, no, your precious tax money didn't pay for my food. Not only that, but my church recommended that my wife stay at home, imagine that.

Your response is motivated by greed, I'm sticking up for someone who's giving selfless service and making a difference. Again, it's a matter of priorities, and I can see where yours are.

 

[highsky]

You'll be relieved to know that it was church welfare, so, no, your precious tax money didn't pay for my food.

Yes, I am relieved.

Not only that, but my church recommended that my wife stay at home, imagine that.

Your response is motivated by greed, I'm sticking up for someone who's giving selfless service and making a difference. Again, it's a matter of priorities, and I can see where yours are.

It's a matter of principle Pal: You lie in the bed you make. If I would choose to get in over my head with starting a family when my means don't support it, I couldn't imagine accepting a handout from someone else...be it the taxpayers or my church.

My daughter is more important than money, and it was worth being on food assistance to have my wife at home with her.

Interesting. Yet you yourself realized that IN ORDER TO SURVIVE, you required MONEY in the form of a food subsidy.

 

[Captain Morgan]

Highsky: Let me ask you this, do you put your whole life on hold until the time is right to start a family? If so, you'll be waiting a long long time. Also, what happens when/if your medical fails and you devoted your life only to flying/work and not developed a family? It's a devestating thing I'm sure and even worse doing it alone without a family to support you through it. I honestly want my wife working on my days off because she enjoys it and I would be there to clean the house/help out/take care of the child. I will not put my child in day care and I would live in a trailer park and eat ramen and tuna if that's the sacrifice that was required. I support women who stay home to take care of a family. I remember coming home from school to a day care because my mother had to work and I wished that I could've come home to someone. Unfortunately that wasn't how my life was made out to be and I want better for my children and there is no shame or anything wrong with that.

CM

PS: Maybe we should use your tax dollars to subsidize stay at home moms and families instead of destroying them through abortion and other negative family programs.