Turn at 400' AGL?

[your_dreamguy]

Hello Everyone,

I just got into a disagreement with some of my captains.
In the AIM, section 5-2-6, b(1): In the begining of the paragraph, the AIM states," Unless specifed otherwise, required obstacle clearance for all departures, including diverse, is based on the pilot crossing the departure end of the runway at least 35 feet...climbing to 400 feet...before making a turn."
This section deals with Instrument Departure Procedures. However, what happens in the case where there is no DP for a particular airport and you get the following clearance:

Cleared to XYZ, after departure make a right turn to a heading of ABC...etc.

If there's no DP at your airport and no further instructions have been given, such as a DME fix, upon reaching departure control or upon reaching a certain altitude, etc...I would make a turn to a heading of ABC at 400' AGL per the AIM section listed above (even though the AIM section listed above pertains to DP's). Some of my captains disagreed and said it should have be higher. However, they could not provide any info. on how they got their answer. By the way, this type of situation has happened to me a few times in real life.

Could you guys give me your opinion?

Thanks

 

[CitationLover]

personal preference and comforts.

in a jet or turboprop i climb to 1500'agl and then turn to make sure i'm not running into a 172 on a base leg (at least lessen the chances).

the time it takes to climb the extra 1100' is negligible to me.

i remember the ATP written has a question regarding this and the answer was climb at best performance until 1500agl, which to me means straight ahead at a safe climb speed.

 

[Diesel]

At our company it's 400' flaps up, yaw damp on and turn to xyz heading. Our FOM states that no turns under 400' so we just use the callout as a reminder. Sometimes if the airport is noise sensitive i hold out a little extra on the turn just to fly neighborly. (stuart, FL allways has you turn hard right off of runway 12) --- best example i can think of

Of course if there is DP then we follow that.

 

[avbug]

Obstacle departure proceedures are published where diverse climb criteria is not applicable. In a nutshell, if you can't depart in any direction with a climb of 200/nm, then departure proceedures are published...for airports where instrument proceedures have been evaluated.

Complete lack of any instrument proceedure,of course, is no gaurantee.

If an obstacle proceedure is published, follow it. If you can file a DP, then do so, and follow it as filed/ammended.

As for climbing 400'; it's a good policy to wait until at least 400' before doing anything but raising the gear. Don't touch power, flaps, or anything else below that except for an emergency.

 

[Southbound]

If you fly for an airline there may be even more restrictions in your ops specs. Restrictions above and beyond standard terps. For example if the weather is less than 1000' clg and 3 miles (VFR) no turns are allowed below 1000' agl in our specs unless required for a published engine out turn procedure.

 

[sclark161]

If in vfr and obstacle clearance can be assured, our min altitude for turns is 100'. Otherwise it's 400'.

 

[atrdriver]

In ATL on clear days often they ask the ATR's (only props operating from there) to give them an early turn to clear the path for jet traffic taking off behind. They only do it on clear days, but when they ask they are usually asking for a turn somewhere around 200' or so, as they have cleared the guy behind you as soon as they figured out you weren't aborting. The configuration doesn't change until 400', except you are in a turn when you hit the 400'.

atrdriver

 

[Mooseflyer]

400 Agl

 

[schafjet]

400 AGL for a turn, 1000ft. for cleanup or MCUA for engine failure cleanup which varies. Been this way for all three airlines that I have worked for.

 

[bobbysamd]

AIM v. FOM

I would go by your company's (FAA-approved) flight operations/procedures manual. Because your FOM is FAA-approved, it is virtually regulatory. Absent any guidance therein, you can't go wrong by following the AIM. Although the AIM is not necessarily regulatory, it may as well be because the FAA promulgates it.

As a relatively new FO, on probation, if it were me, I would tread with caution arguments with your Captains.

 

[English]

As a relatively new FO, on probation, if it were me, I would tread with caution arguments with your Captains.

Never just go along with a captain, just because you are on probation. If you have a question, bring it up and find the answer together. But, Bobbysamd, your comment to just go along with a captain due to being on probation bothers me. We should never just go along for the ride due to our probationary status. I agree there shouldn't be arguments, per se, but the original poster wrote he had a disagreement, not an argument.

If in doubt, bring it up no matter your status.

 

[milplt]

If the particular airport requires a turn higher than 400'AGL, a DP would be published or some other obstacle departure procedures would be published on the back of the Jepps 10-9 pg or front of the Approach book (DOD) or some equivalent. If no obstacles penetrate the plane of a 200'/nm climb with a turn to any heading at 400' AGL, then no procedures are required.

 

[avbug]

Summertime, I start the turn at 3', but that's not on for corporate or airline flying. I may never climb up to 400'...

So far as arguing with captains...don't. But asking questions, within reason, is appropriate and expected.

 

[satpak77]

common sense and judgement

use this and you will be ok

obviously you dont climb to FL 510 before turning on course but you dont do it at Vr either

1000 feet (esp in turbine or jet) is nice and conservative and 500 feet is probably a good rule for props and/or pistons. Some ops specs/etc will specifically state it.

Take off on 12-R at KSAT at mins and make a righthand turn just after liftoff and you will take out the control tower.

just because the AIM recommends 400 feet does not mean you should do it. Use your pilot judgement and common sense.

 

[SSDD]

When SFO is departing 1L-R, ATC expects you to start your turn almost immediately after takeoff to avoid drifting. Most airliners will start a "slight" turn shortly after the gear comes up.

 

[FlyChicaga]

100' VFR, accel height IFR. Clean up at accel height and final segment speed.

Sure... climb to 1500' before turning at DCA. We'll see where that gets you.

 

[Jmmccutc]

i just felt like posting this with no real relevance to answering the question, it's just more of a senerio type thing, our runway is 1-19, i recently saw a Citation X depart 1 and **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** near after wheels up crank in about 30 deg to get an on course of about 120 degrees, i know this probably (procedurely speaking) isn't the best thing to do, but it was rather bad ass to watch it...the other thing i got to thinking after the fact was he also might have been trying to avoid the CLE class B that is about 5 miles North of our field...just a guess but it was cool as he!!

 

[deez_nutz2000]

Unless using an instrument or obstacle departure procedure, you are technically supposed to follow this, according to a local POI who said he would start violating people for not complying with it. Not sure how he could since it ins't a reg.....but I guess we are responsible for following it as professionals.

AIM 4-3-2
Even though this is for airports w/a control tower, we were told it is to be followed at an uncontrolled airport as well.

6. Departure Leg
The flight path which begins after takeoff and continues straight ahead along the extended runway centerline. The departure climb continues UNTIL reaching a point at Least 1/2 mile from the departure end of the runway AND within 300 feet of the traffic pattern altitude.

*Can't say I follow this all the time ,sometimes it is just unrealistic to do this, but the Gods have given us their interpretation*


Also, for what it is worth.....we did end up getting this guy to agree that as long as a pilot is IFR rated, current, etc. per the FAR's and a/c is FAR compliant...it does not state anywhere that an IFR clearance is required to fly in IMC in uncontrolled airspace (such as out west). As stupid as it sounds, one FSDO agrees.

Any good arguments?

 

[potrack]

I agree with MilPlt:

1. If there is an obstacle DP, file/fly it.
2. If there is not, and there are instrument approaches to that field, Diverse Departures are authorized.
3. Diverse Dep for zone 1 have you straight ahead to 400' then turning.

4. My company rules say "In VFR you can turn below 400', at the Captain's discretion. Common for runway 32 dept from ORD.

Don't be so conservative you climb to 1500' at ORD---you will just clog things up.

 

[bobbysamd]

Misquote

Never just go along with a captain, just because you are on probation. If you have a question, bring it up and find the answer together. But, Bobbysamd, your comment to just go along with a captain due to being on probation bothers me.

(emphasis added)

That is not what I wrote. I did not write to "go along with a captain due to being on probation." Here it is again, for you to re-read:

As a relatively new FO, on probation, if it were me, I would tread with caution arguments with your Captains.

Plain English. In other words, consider your comments carefully before speaking up. In other words, be sure you know what you're talking about before opening your yap. I never recommended to just go along with a captain or not to speak up.

If you disagree with something I might write, fine. But at least extend the courtesy of quoting me correctly and respond accordingly.

 

[CitationLover]

the 1500' agl is obviously a reference to smaller airports (thus the cessna reference). at ORD or DCA you will have a DP to follow, but not at GCK.

no turns below 400' agl is fairly standard. most of our emergency performance data is a turn at 1000' agl.


fly: how's coex?

 

[KingAirDriver]

As a general rule of thumb for our operations.....if there is no DP we climb to Circling Minimums for the approach to that runway and then make our first turn. Your Guaranteed Obstacle clearance at that altitude!

 

[avbug]

Only within the circling radius for the approach category to which your departure and climb speed correlates. Step outside that radius, and you have no promise.

Be sure that if you used category B minimums due to approach speed, but fly at Category D speeds on departure, you're referencing the Category D circling MDA when you use that rule of thumb...and remember that in that case, you're only good to a distance of 2.3 miles. Also bear in mind that airport restrictions may preclude maneuvering over a portion of the field, or the surrouding environment when circling...simply using a circling minimum is no gaurantee of surrounding terrain separation in all cases.

 

[Donsa320]

400 ft turns

The magic 400ft number pops up in 2 places.

One is; 400ft agl is the lowest altitude that can be used in Terps when designing a DP which involves a turn. A turning DP cannot require a turn below 400ft agl.

The other is; 400ft agl is the lowest EOAA (engine out acceleration altitude, formerly MGLO) that a manufacturer can establish. The constraints on EOAA altitude are usually the maximum power or thrust time limit on the engine(s) and obstacles. The lower you set EOAA the more obstacles become a factor and the higher you set it the closer to exceeding Max power/thrust time limits. It is a balancing act when certifying Transport Category airplanes.

Both of the above frequently are higher, but never lower.

Absent the above conditions then 400ft agl has no meaning . But if it is in your ops specs or FOM or comfort level or whatever, then of course abide by that. <grin>
D.C.and standing by for incoming.

 

[satpak77]

Unless using an instrument or obstacle departure procedure, you are technically supposed to follow this, according to a local POI who said he would start violating people for not complying with it.

I would like to see him try that. He is going to "violate someone" based on their violation of what reg? What? The AIM?

Where is he getting the data to build his case? Radar altitude? ATC tapes? Cessna ABC turned at 600 feet instead of 400 feet? Please

Yeah right. AOPA Legal/ALPA Legal would have a field day with that one.

AIM recommends 45 degree entry to downwind at uncontrolled fields but we know that doesn't happen everywhere. He11, there have been published articles in aviation magazines teaching "how to make straight ins at non-controlled fields safe" (!!!). Nobody being violated there.

Online Ops Inspectors please post your feedback

** by the way, the things you are "technically supposed to...." adhere to are technically addressed in the FAR's and (like you said) printed DP/SID/STAR procedures. If not, in most cases you are encouraged or recommended to follow or at least you should be aware of it. Examples are numerous (45 degree entry example above, TRW avoidance distance, wake turbulence avoidance, etc etc)

later

 

[avbug]

The magic 400ft number pops up in 2 places.

Three, actually. It's also a NBAA recommendation.

 

[A Squared]

Absent the above conditions (turning DP and min EOAA) then 400ft agl has no meaning .

No. that is not true, the 400' does figure into a diverse departure. If you look at the obstruction clearance zones in the TERPS, you will see that even a diverse departure is predicated on a climb on runway heading to 400', then a turn in any direction. In a departure analysis, the only area which is analyzed fro obstacles below 400' AGL is "zone 1" which extends out 2 miles on the runway centerline (and splays 15 degrees either side of centerline) from there, Zone 2 and 3 cover a turn in any direction. BUT, zone 2 and 3 obstruction clearence *begins* at 400' AGL. It would be entirely possible to have a 300' obstacle just outside zone 1 and underneath zone 3, whch you would hit if you made a 90 degree turn in a slow climbing aircraft before reaching 400' agl, yet the airport would still meet the TERPS criteria for a diverse departure.

This doesn't adress the question of whether a turn before 400' is permissible in VFR under 121, but once you have worked through the departure criteria in the TERPS it is very clear that a turn before 400' in IMC may put you in very close proximity to an obstruction.

In a fast climbing aircraft, you will *probably* be through 400' before you exit ZOne 1, so you'll *probably* be OK. In a slow climbing aircraft, you just might be clipping cell phone towers

 

[80/20]

I undersand the question to be about radar departures with initial heading to be flown immediately after takeoff. Just like the TERPS, FAA order 8260.19, (Flight Procedures and Airspace) establishes guidelines for IFR departure turning procedures which assumes a climb to 400 feet above the airport elevation before a turn is commenced. A premature turn should be a concern for obstacles, a very delayed turn might cause a separation problem. Don’t think we have a strict rule for this. FAA order 7110.65 (AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL) instruct controllers to consider known aircraft performance characteristics when applying separation to departing aircraft.

My personal view: Turn at 400 AGL if possible, would not get an ulcer if we blasted through 1000’ before we got our turn started. Technically you are right dreamguy and your capt. is “wrong”. Would I start an argument with the captain about this? – no, but I would try to discuss it in a constructive manner at a suitable time. Efficient CRM require both good leadership and good followership. Don’t be too eager to outshine your master but be assertive when safety is at risk.

 

[Donsa320]

A Squared

Hey, good catch, I cannot argue that point as my Terps manual is missing page 113. (Never lend manuals out). I see you are in DC-6's and I'll bet you are accutely aware of take-off obstacle clearance. <grin> Thanks.

D.C.

 

[Prop Trash]

Turns after takeoff may be commenced at 100' AGL in VMC at my company. In IMC, turns are permitted at 400' AGL or whatever the obstacle DP says. ExpressJet pilots, correct me if I'm wrong.