Turn at 400' AGL?

[your_dreamguy]

Hello Everyone,

I just got into a disagreement with some of my captains.
In the AIM, section 5-2-6, b(1): In the begining of the paragraph, the AIM states," Unless specifed otherwise, required obstacle clearance for all departures, including diverse, is based on the pilot crossing the departure end of the runway at least 35 feet...climbing to 400 feet...before making a turn."
This section deals with Instrument Departure Procedures. However, what happens in the case where there is no DP for a particular airport and you get the following clearance:

Cleared to XYZ, after departure make a right turn to a heading of ABC...etc.

If there's no DP at your airport and no further instructions have been given, such as a DME fix, upon reaching departure control or upon reaching a certain altitude, etc...I would make a turn to a heading of ABC at 400' AGL per the AIM section listed above (even though the AIM section listed above pertains to DP's). Some of my captains disagreed and said it should have be higher. However, they could not provide any info. on how they got their answer. By the way, this type of situation has happened to me a few times in real life.

Could you guys give me your opinion?

Thanks

 

[CitationLover]

personal preference and comforts.

in a jet or turboprop i climb to 1500'agl and then turn to make sure i'm not running into a 172 on a base leg (at least lessen the chances).

the time it takes to climb the extra 1100' is negligible to me.

i remember the ATP written has a question regarding this and the answer was climb at best performance until 1500agl, which to me means straight ahead at a safe climb speed.

 

[Diesel]

At our company it's 400' flaps up, yaw damp on and turn to xyz heading. Our FOM states that no turns under 400' so we just use the callout as a reminder. Sometimes if the airport is noise sensitive i hold out a little extra on the turn just to fly neighborly. (stuart, FL allways has you turn hard right off of runway 12) --- best example i can think of

Of course if there is DP then we follow that.

 

[avbug]

Obstacle departure proceedures are published where diverse climb criteria is not applicable. In a nutshell, if you can't depart in any direction with a climb of 200/nm, then departure proceedures are published...for airports where instrument proceedures have been evaluated.

Complete lack of any instrument proceedure,of course, is no gaurantee.

If an obstacle proceedure is published, follow it. If you can file a DP, then do so, and follow it as filed/ammended.

As for climbing 400'; it's a good policy to wait until at least 400' before doing anything but raising the gear. Don't touch power, flaps, or anything else below that except for an emergency.

 

[Southbound]

If you fly for an airline there may be even more restrictions in your ops specs. Restrictions above and beyond standard terps. For example if the weather is less than 1000' clg and 3 miles (VFR) no turns are allowed below 1000' agl in our specs unless required for a published engine out turn procedure.

 

[sclark161]

If in vfr and obstacle clearance can be assured, our min altitude for turns is 100'. Otherwise it's 400'.

 

[atrdriver]

In ATL on clear days often they ask the ATR's (only props operating from there) to give them an early turn to clear the path for jet traffic taking off behind. They only do it on clear days, but when they ask they are usually asking for a turn somewhere around 200' or so, as they have cleared the guy behind you as soon as they figured out you weren't aborting. The configuration doesn't change until 400', except you are in a turn when you hit the 400'.

atrdriver

 

[Mooseflyer]

400 Agl

 

[schafjet]

400 AGL for a turn, 1000ft. for cleanup or MCUA for engine failure cleanup which varies. Been this way for all three airlines that I have worked for.

 

[bobbysamd]

AIM v. FOM

I would go by your company's (FAA-approved) flight operations/procedures manual. Because your FOM is FAA-approved, it is virtually regulatory. Absent any guidance therein, you can't go wrong by following the AIM. Although the AIM is not necessarily regulatory, it may as well be because the FAA promulgates it.

As a relatively new FO, on probation, if it were me, I would tread with caution arguments with your Captains.

 

[English]

As a relatively new FO, on probation, if it were me, I would tread with caution arguments with your Captains.

Never just go along with a captain, just because you are on probation. If you have a question, bring it up and find the answer together. But, Bobbysamd, your comment to just go along with a captain due to being on probation bothers me. We should never just go along for the ride due to our probationary status. I agree there shouldn't be arguments, per se, but the original poster wrote he had a disagreement, not an argument.

If in doubt, bring it up no matter your status.

 

[milplt]

If the particular airport requires a turn higher than 400'AGL, a DP would be published or some other obstacle departure procedures would be published on the back of the Jepps 10-9 pg or front of the Approach book (DOD) or some equivalent. If no obstacles penetrate the plane of a 200'/nm climb with a turn to any heading at 400' AGL, then no procedures are required.

 

[avbug]

Summertime, I start the turn at 3', but that's not on for corporate or airline flying. I may never climb up to 400'...

So far as arguing with captains...don't. But asking questions, within reason, is appropriate and expected.

 

[satpak77]

common sense and judgement

use this and you will be ok

obviously you dont climb to FL 510 before turning on course but you dont do it at Vr either

1000 feet (esp in turbine or jet) is nice and conservative and 500 feet is probably a good rule for props and/or pistons. Some ops specs/etc will specifically state it.

Take off on 12-R at KSAT at mins and make a righthand turn just after liftoff and you will take out the control tower.

just because the AIM recommends 400 feet does not mean you should do it. Use your pilot judgement and common sense.

 

[SSDD]

When SFO is departing 1L-R, ATC expects you to start your turn almost immediately after takeoff to avoid drifting. Most airliners will start a "slight" turn shortly after the gear comes up.

 

[FlyChicaga]

100' VFR, accel height IFR. Clean up at accel height and final segment speed.

Sure... climb to 1500' before turning at DCA. We'll see where that gets you.

 

[Jmmccutc]

i just felt like posting this with no real relevance to answering the question, it's just more of a senerio type thing, our runway is 1-19, i recently saw a Citation X depart 1 and **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** near after wheels up crank in about 30 deg to get an on course of about 120 degrees, i know this probably (procedurely speaking) isn't the best thing to do, but it was rather bad ass to watch it...the other thing i got to thinking after the fact was he also might have been trying to avoid the CLE class B that is about 5 miles North of our field...just a guess but it was cool as he!!

 

[deez_nutz2000]

Unless using an instrument or obstacle departure procedure, you are technically supposed to follow this, according to a local POI who said he would start violating people for not complying with it. Not sure how he could since it ins't a reg.....but I guess we are responsible for following it as professionals.

AIM 4-3-2
Even though this is for airports w/a control tower, we were told it is to be followed at an uncontrolled airport as well.

6. Departure Leg
The flight path which begins after takeoff and continues straight ahead along the extended runway centerline. The departure climb continues UNTIL reaching a point at Least 1/2 mile from the departure end of the runway AND within 300 feet of the traffic pattern altitude.

*Can't say I follow this all the time ,sometimes it is just unrealistic to do this, but the Gods have given us their interpretation*


Also, for what it is worth.....we did end up getting this guy to agree that as long as a pilot is IFR rated, current, etc. per the FAR's and a/c is FAR compliant...it does not state anywhere that an IFR clearance is required to fly in IMC in uncontrolled airspace (such as out west). As stupid as it sounds, one FSDO agrees.

Any good arguments?

 

[potrack]

I agree with MilPlt:

1. If there is an obstacle DP, file/fly it.
2. If there is not, and there are instrument approaches to that field, Diverse Departures are authorized.
3. Diverse Dep for zone 1 have you straight ahead to 400' then turning.

4. My company rules say "In VFR you can turn below 400', at the Captain's discretion. Common for runway 32 dept from ORD.

Don't be so conservative you climb to 1500' at ORD---you will just clog things up.

 

[bobbysamd]

Misquote

Never just go along with a captain, just because you are on probation. If you have a question, bring it up and find the answer together. But, Bobbysamd, your comment to just go along with a captain due to being on probation bothers me.

(emphasis added)

That is not what I wrote. I did not write to "go along with a captain due to being on probation." Here it is again, for you to re-read:

As a relatively new FO, on probation, if it were me, I would tread with caution arguments with your Captains.

Plain English. In other words, consider your comments carefully before speaking up. In other words, be sure you know what you're talking about before opening your yap. I never recommended to just go along with a captain or not to speak up.

If you disagree with something I might write, fine. But at least extend the courtesy of quoting me correctly and respond accordingly.