True or False: Focus Air starting a PFT 747 program.

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You must face the facts whether you want to or not. Embry-Riddle graduates are a completely different product than a 500 hour CFI who has only been knocking around the pattern with overweight 40 year old lawyers. We are trained as AIRLINE PILOTS from the beginning. If you have only instructed or flown freight you probably are not ready for the panel of a 74. But an Embry-Riddle graduate IS. Those are the facts. Like it or not.

MR

I don't like your "facts." ERAU pilots are no better than anyone else.

 

[Freight Dog]

How does one get trained from the beginning to be an airline pilot while flying a 172? Better yet, how does Fiddly-Diddle prepare you for the panel? You use FE's on your 172's?

 

[kevdog]

Wow, just checked out the CAPT program details. **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**, it's more expensive than Comair, or whatever it is called now. $80k later, and 4 grads get a 1 year office job at a start-up acmi, then a 1-year panel job, and finally a to the right seat. Man, that's rolling the dice. If the company makes it for the next 3 years, I guess it could be a great experience.

I am a little curious why people on this board think you need years of experience to operate a panel. If you can pass your pc, you can operate the panel.

Oh, the best ERAU pilot expertise I have ever seen was in Deland. There were about 10 ERAU planes in a ERAU congo line waiting for takeoff during light and variable winds. One genius decided to switch the pattern after a wind change, and all 10 planes taxied to the other side of the airport. That was one of the funniest things I have ever seen!

 

[kevdog]

oh, sorry...didn't know d a m n was a bad word. Am I going to get put in the penalty box for that one?

 

[FearlessFreep]

The 74 is an engineers airplane. Would you really want to fly with a brandy new SO on the panel instead of a good old crusty PFE?

Give the PFE's a job instead.

 

[Clyde]

The 74 is an engineers airplane. Would you really want to fly with a brandy new SO on the panel instead of a good old crusty PFE?

Give the PFE's a job instead.

I would like to be there to see their first hydraulic failure in the sim. Maybe even the first time they fail the flaps and gear on them. Losing that second engine on the go-around should be interesting too.

I'm with you. With the type of flying that Focus is intending on performing, a PFE OR a person with previous turbine engine experience should be a must. Do these people know that during the preflight if the Captain has an MEL question they are the one's he/she will be looking at?

 

[kevdog]

The 74 is an engineers airplane. Would you really want to fly with a brandy new SO on the panel instead of a good old crusty PFE?

Give the PFE's a job instead.

Sure, a PFE with a lot of experience is much better than a newbie, but even those old PFE's had to start on the plane at some point in their career. Am I wrong?

 

[Clyde]

You must face the facts whether you want to or not. Embry-Riddle graduates are a completely different product than a 500 hour CFI who has only been knocking around the pattern with overweight 40 year old lawyers. We are trained as AIRLINE PILOTS from the beginning. If you have only instructed or flown freight you probably are not ready for the panel of a 74. But an Embry-Riddle graduate IS. Those are the facts. Like it or not.

MR

Here's a fact: I went to ERAU in Daytona for 3/4 of a semester. It was nothing like it was advertised, the facilities were not impressive at all, and I did not find it to be the "Harvard of the skies" like the ads claimed it to be. I had already sunk in ONE semesters worth of tuition, and didn't care about finishing up the semester, I couldn't wait to leave town.

My academic advisor (his initials were N.C. and he was half-deaf from flying Lears) told me I was making a mistake and that the airlines would never hire me. Guess what? I got hired by one and have 5 years seniority. And, I did it all without that ERAU golden-wings degree. I went to a state-university back home and graduated in 4 years.

"We are trained as AIRLINE PILOTS from the beginning."
Beginning of what? There is only one thing ERAU students have in common with airline pilots: the amount of money a senior wide-body captain makes in one year is equivalent to the amount of money one wastes at ERAU in 4.

"If you have only instructed or flown freight you probably are not ready for the panel of a 74. But an Embry-Riddle graduate IS. Those are the facts. Like it or not."
I instructed for 18 months. I flew freight for 3 years. Then, I was hired into the panel on the 747 and did that for two years. Didn't have any problems. I wonder if having 2,000 hours of turbine experience had anything to do with that.

I'll say this much: an ERAU could probably get through SO training on the 747 if they have a solid understanding of aircraft systems. And by that, I don't mean being able to decipher with great detail the differences between a C-172N and a C-172P. And notice I said SO and not specifically FE. The Riddle people could probably stumble through enough to learn procedures, but I highly doubt they would know what was happening when the switches are pulled. Also, I doubt very highly they could survive the right seat initially, mostly due to attitude. First, they don't have any people with real-world experience at Riddle. Second, the use of the phrase "well at Riddle they taught us....." would surely wash them out.

 

[Clyde]

Sure, a PFE with a lot of experience is much better than a newbie, but even those old PFE's had to start on the plane at some point in their career. Am I wrong?

Kevdog,

You are absolutely correct. However, the level of knowledge the older PFE's had when they started was a lot deeper than what the newbies have. All of the PFE's I've flown with started out as mechanics.

 

[PCL_128]

I instructed for 18 months. I flew freight for 3 years. Then, I was hired into the panel on the 747 and did that for two years. Didn't have any problems. I wonder if having 2,000 hours of turbine experience had anything to do with that.

Clyde my friend, I think you must be confused. It wasn't all that turbine time that helped you. I just had to be the 3/4 semester you spent at Riddle. Yeah, that's it.

 

[Clyde]

Clyde my friend, I think you must be confused. It wasn't all that turbine time that helped you. I just had to be the 3/4 semester you spent at Riddle. Yeah, that's it.

LOL!!!, you're right!! I guess every little bit does help.

 

[FearlessFreep]

PFE's by definition are A & P's. They have signoff capabilities (RII) that allow dispatch of the aircraft at outstations when maintenance is performed on systems relating to RVSM. Additionally they have the ability to perform "M" (maintenance actions) items in the DDPG (MEL), that will allow further dispatch of the aircraft without having other maintenance personnel available. These cannot be accomplished by an SO.

For the most part and I speak in generalities PFE's are dedicated to being Engineers. Second Officers are looking forward and to the right. Mostly just looking at when they are going to upgrade off the panel.

I have been on the panel myself, have flown with PFE's and SO's. The PFE's for the most part have been very consistent in their professionalism. The SO's have been a very different story. I have had one's that have flamed out engines on takeoff, and other's that were as good or better than the best PFE's. When I was on the panel I was as conscientious, dedicated and as professional as I could be. Unfortunately that is not always the case with all SO's.

I know a PFE that last I heard is in training at Focus and will be a Check Airman. I assure you he will make short work of any SO's that aren't going to put in a maximum effort.

 

[b757driver]

Sounds like a bad joke to me. For all the hoopla presented by the Diddle folks, that in NO way prepares you for either the 747 panel or the international flying. There IS a BIG difference between training and experience. You can be the "best" trained in the world but if you don't have the experience, frankly, you don't have a clue! I'm sure the check airman FE will have his hands full if this comes to being. Maybe as a former chief FE on Air Force One, he can lick 'em in to shape.
I certainly concur with those who say that this airplane is a systems plane and the FE is the king and the one the Capt relies on. I know, I qualified a few months ago and can tell you unequivocally that it were no picnic!! Maybe because of 10 years of glass experinece going back to steam guages and a 3-man crew. It IS very different - if you don't have the EXPERIENCE.

 

[kevdog]

Kevdog,

You are absolutely correct. However, the level of knowledge the older PFE's had when they started was a lot deeper than what the newbies have. All of the PFE's I've flown with started out as mechanics.

Clyde, I have learned alot from PFE's and yes, I feel more comfortable flying with a PFE that has experience rather than a new guy without an A&P, but if one has the desire to learn the aircraft and do their job well, anyone can run the panel like a PFE, with a little time.

On the 727, the person who taught me the most was a 65 year old with 30+ years experience on the plane. He sat through every seat and then retired sitting sideways. He however, is not a mechanic.

 

[rvsm410]

Focus Deal with ERAU also noted in April Issue of Flying mag..page 65....