True or False: Focus Air starting a PFT 747 program.

[Clyde]

Clyde my friend, I think you must be confused. It wasn't all that turbine time that helped you. I just had to be the 3/4 semester you spent at Riddle. Yeah, that's it.

LOL!!!, you're right!! I guess every little bit does help.

 

[FearlessFreep]

PFE's by definition are A & P's. They have signoff capabilities (RII) that allow dispatch of the aircraft at outstations when maintenance is performed on systems relating to RVSM. Additionally they have the ability to perform "M" (maintenance actions) items in the DDPG (MEL), that will allow further dispatch of the aircraft without having other maintenance personnel available. These cannot be accomplished by an SO.

For the most part and I speak in generalities PFE's are dedicated to being Engineers. Second Officers are looking forward and to the right. Mostly just looking at when they are going to upgrade off the panel.

I have been on the panel myself, have flown with PFE's and SO's. The PFE's for the most part have been very consistent in their professionalism. The SO's have been a very different story. I have had one's that have flamed out engines on takeoff, and other's that were as good or better than the best PFE's. When I was on the panel I was as conscientious, dedicated and as professional as I could be. Unfortunately that is not always the case with all SO's.

I know a PFE that last I heard is in training at Focus and will be a Check Airman. I assure you he will make short work of any SO's that aren't going to put in a maximum effort.

 

[b757driver]

Sounds like a bad joke to me. For all the hoopla presented by the Diddle folks, that in NO way prepares you for either the 747 panel or the international flying. There IS a BIG difference between training and experience. You can be the "best" trained in the world but if you don't have the experience, frankly, you don't have a clue! I'm sure the check airman FE will have his hands full if this comes to being. Maybe as a former chief FE on Air Force One, he can lick 'em in to shape.
I certainly concur with those who say that this airplane is a systems plane and the FE is the king and the one the Capt relies on. I know, I qualified a few months ago and can tell you unequivocally that it were no picnic!! Maybe because of 10 years of glass experinece going back to steam guages and a 3-man crew. It IS very different - if you don't have the EXPERIENCE.

 

[kevdog]

Kevdog,

You are absolutely correct. However, the level of knowledge the older PFE's had when they started was a lot deeper than what the newbies have. All of the PFE's I've flown with started out as mechanics.

Clyde, I have learned alot from PFE's and yes, I feel more comfortable flying with a PFE that has experience rather than a new guy without an A&P, but if one has the desire to learn the aircraft and do their job well, anyone can run the panel like a PFE, with a little time.

On the 727, the person who taught me the most was a 65 year old with 30+ years experience on the plane. He sat through every seat and then retired sitting sideways. He however, is not a mechanic.

 

[rvsm410]

Focus Deal with ERAU also noted in April Issue of Flying mag..page 65....

 

[Clyde]

Clyde, I have learned alot from PFE's and yes, I feel more comfortable flying with a PFE that has experience rather than a new guy without an A&P, but if one has the desire to learn the aircraft and do their job well, anyone can run the panel like a PFE, with a little time.

On the 727, the person who taught me the most was a 65 year old with 30+ years experience on the plane. He sat through every seat and then retired sitting sideways. He however, is not a mechanic.

Kevdog,

I probably should have worded my response a little differently, I did not intend to make it sound like the PFE was smarter because of the A&P.

In my experience, both as a previous FE and watching others go through the training, has been that a solid knowledge of systems and/or the desire to learn systems (and a slight mechanical inclination) is an absolute must. Having no prior knowledge of the level of experience of these prospective SO's, I can't say for sure if they will be good at what they do or not. But, knowing that the position is only for 6 months followed by the right seat soon thereafter, I would find it plausible that the upgrade would be the biggest thing on their minds. Having traveled internationally on the 747 previously, I as front seater would feel more comfortable with a seasoned engineer sitting behind me.

 

[kevdog]

Kevdog,

I probably should have worded my response a little differently, I did not intend to make it sound like the PFE was smarter because of the A&P.

In my experience, both as a previous FE and watching others go through the training, has been that a solid knowledge of systems and/or the desire to learn systems (and a slight mechanical inclination) is an absolute must. Having no prior knowledge of the level of experience of these prospective SO's, I can't say for sure if they will be good at what they do or not. But, knowing that the position is only for 6 months followed by the right seat soon thereafter, I would find it plausible that the upgrade would be the biggest thing on their minds. Having traveled internationally on the 747 previously, I as front seater would feel more comfortable with a seasoned engineer sitting behind me.

Clyde, hey we agree on something, lol! FYI, I believe the FE position is for a year, already after a year of being a flight follower and office biotch. Am I wrong to think if you have a DC-9 type (with line experience or not), you should already have at least a mediocre knowledge of transport category systems, if not a good understanding? Going through another 4-6 weeks of systems training, SIT, and Sims, I'd think they should do ok.

 

[General Lee]

Great advertising for Empty Nipple.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[kevdog]

Great advertising for Empty Nipple.



Bye Bye---General Lee

Yeah, if ya gat aitty grand to blow!

 

[Snakum]

I would find it plausible that the upgrade would be the biggest thing on their minds.

No doubt this was foremost in their minds, but geez ... that's a lot of money to play pylut. I will never understand that mindset. Maybe cuz I've never had THAT kind of money.

Innywho ... back in 2000 I talked to a guy who was hired as an FE on a DC-8 at 500 hours. This was back when many regionals were picking up anyone with a CPL/ME and a pulse, and no one wanted the job (it was beneath them?). He took the job, they got him thru his FE ticket and DC-8 training, and a couple years later he was in the FO seat. Prolly a Captain by now. But my point is ... according to this guy, who did it at 500 hours and had nothing bigger then a few hours of Seneca time, it wasn't that big of a deal.

Of course, he'd have been sucking wind if they got stuck with a limping engine or a wonky hydraulic system in the middle of NoWhere, Nicaragua. They'd wish they had an old-hand FE with an A&P on board.

But for just FE'ing it, as he says ... "It ain't brain surgury."

Minh

 

[Clyde]

Clyde, hey we agree on something, lol! FYI, I believe the FE position is for a year, already after a year of being a flight follower and office biotch. Am I wrong to think if you have a DC-9 type (with line experience or not), you should already have at least a mediocre knowledge of transport category systems, if not a good understanding? Going through another 4-6 weeks of systems training, SIT, and Sims, I'd think they should do ok.

Dude, we agree!! Either I'm shifting slightly left of course, or you are shifiting slightly right.

I would assume that they would have to have some working knowledge of transport-category systems to get the -9 type. But, if they are training in an MD-90 environment, I would guess that the majority of the systems are automated. They may emphasize that instead of knowing what happens behind the cockpit of the MD-90 when a button is pushed, just know what the light means when it comes on.

When I went through 747 FE school, they did expect us to know above and beyond the switches on the panel, and have a strong working knowledge of the systems. I doubt they wouldn't have passed their training without knowing the workings of basic systems on a scale that large. But, the CAPT program is a business, and it would be hard to attract people if there is a high washout rate too.

I don't think they will have any problems. I think the school is going to be challenging for them, but the hardest part is going to be getting used to sitting behind the front seaters being the "man (or woman) behind the curtain."

 

[kevdog]

Dude, we agree!! Either I'm shifting slightly left of course, or you are shifiting slightly right.

We must be using Omega!

But still, imagine dishing out $80,000! Or taking a 10 year loan for it, payments would be about $1,000 a month, so that job would actually cost you around $120,000 for 10 years.

Let's say you make (if the start-up is a success):
1st year (FF) - $30,000 ($18,000 after loan)
2nd year (FE) - $40,000 ($28,000 after loan)
3rd year (FO) - $45,000 ($33,000 after loan)
4th year (FO) - $48,000 ($36,000 after loan)
5th year (FO) - $50,000 ($38,000 after loan)
6th year (FO) - $55,000 ($43,000 after loan)
7th year (CA) - $80,000 ($68,000 after loan)
8th year (CA) - $85,000 ($73,000 after loan)
9th year (CA) - $90,000 ($78,000 after loan)
10th year (CA) - $95,000 ($83,000 after loan)

Let's say you make (if the start-up is NOT a success):
1st year (FF) - $30,000 ($18,000 after loan)
2nd year (FE) - $40,000 ($28,000 after loan)
3rd year (Terminated) - $0 (-$12,000 after loan)
4th year (CRJ FO) - $18,000 ($6,000 after loan)
5th year (CRJ FO) - $20,000 ($8,000 after loan)
6th year (CRJ FO) - $22,000 ($10,000 after loan)
7th year (CRJ FO) - $24,000 ($12,000 after loan)
8th year (CRJ CA) - $45,000 ($33,000 after loan)
9th year (CRJ CA) - $48,000 ($36,000 after loan)
10th year (CRJ CA) - $50,000 ($38,000 after loan)

NOTES:
- Both of these scenarios are "BEST CASE."
- 2nd set more likely.
- $80,000 is a lot of money to become a regional captain and live on PBJ's.
- ERAU CAPT graduate will probably shoot themselves after year 5.
- Focus is going to be flying when?

 

[Mayday911]

I have a job offer with Focus as an F/O, and I am not a CAPT grad but I am a ERAU grad. I got into an "argument" with the CAPT program administrator at the interview, he was saying that the graduates of the CAPT are the best thing since Chuck Yeager. I guess the Focus management bought the sales pitch, oh well, since when is any airline's management rational or logical...the CAPT program costs more freakin' money than the undergraduate program.
Not sure of the S/O pay but first year F/O pay is $42,480, with $2/hour per diem and free health insurance.

Mayday

 

[I.P. Freley]

http://ihateerau.blogspot.com/

I don't know what the guy's beef is with the school, but it does make for some enterntaining reading.

After reading this thread (and some others), I'm still wondering what everyone ELSE'S beef is with the school... Everyone's run across annoying ERAU grads, but I have run across extremely annoying grads of the other aviation universities, too. In fact, the annoying grads of non-Riddle aviation schools get even MORE annoying when they carry on about how much better their school is...

Without having read the whole thread I have picked up on... $80grand for a PFT program? WTFO?? What lunatic is going to spend that kind of money for a job?

 

[Clyde]

After reading this thread (and some others), I'm still wondering what everyone ELSE'S beef is with the school... Everyone's run across annoying ERAU grads, but I have run across extremely annoying grads of the other aviation universities, too. In fact, the annoying grads of non-Riddle aviation schools get even MORE annoying when they carry on about how much better their school is...

Without having read the whole thread I have picked up on... $80grand for a PFT program? WTFO?? What lunatic is going to spend that kind of money for a job?

I never said my school was better. I did say that I attended Riddle for less than a semester and found it a waste of money. It is nothing like they would have you believe it is.

 

[kevdog]

I never said my school was better. I did say that I attended Riddle for less than a semester and found it a waste of money. It is nothing like they would have you believe it is.

hey, isn't college rivalry normal? look at sports teams, ivy league competition, etc. my experience with school is you (as the student) can get as much or as little out of it as you want to. can you get a good education at erau? sure! are you going to get hired into the 747 by pan am? absolutely not!

clyde, fyi i am finishing up my degree at erau, using the online distant learning program. i started this program with just a little more than the equivelent of 2 years left. it will cost me just around $12,000 including books and materials. the piece of paper i will get is the same as if i attended the campus. ($5,000 a year plus books isn't bad).

 

[I.P. Freley]

I never said my school was better. I did say that I attended Riddle for less than a semester and found it a waste of money. It is nothing like they would have you believe it is.

I wasn't zeroing in on you, Clyde, you're just one of many...

I particularly like the side-splitting plays on words in this thread, "humpty diddle" and such, which are so screamingly funny and original. Never heard any of those before. I also find it hysterical when people say "Skyworst" all the time, that cracks me up every time. So witty! I can barely keep up!

Aaaaanyway....

I am curious, though, what you were expecting that you didn't get in your 3/4 of a semester at ERAU... I think they deliver exactly what they say they do, which is a very expensive education aimed at persons who want a career in aviation.

 

[Clyde]

I wasn't zeroing in on you, Clyde, you're just one of many...

I particularly like the side-splitting plays on words in this thread, "humpty diddle" and such, which are so screamingly funny and original. Never heard any of those before. I also find it hysterical when people say "Skyworst" all the time, that cracks me up every time. So witty! I can barely keep up!

Aaaaanyway....

I am curious, though, what you were expecting that you didn't get in your 3/4 of a semester at ERAU... I think they deliver exactly what they say they do, which is a very expensive education aimed at persons who want a career in aviation.

I.P.,

After reading the magazine articles and literature sent from ERAU, I was really expecting a very professional and well designed program. What I found was quite the opposite.

I will say that I had one or two good professors, but the rest of them were not worth the paper their names were written on. I had an electrical systems lab teacher who spent more time telling jokes than teaching valuable material. I had a math professor who was very smart at math, but couldn't teach it effectively. (I acheived an A in calculus a year later at my new university). I had a metal shop teacher who acted like he was drunk all of the time. When you entered the shop, you were on your own. He just sat there at his perch and watched. Another guy who taught mx regs was o.k., but far from being what I would expect from a professional. In mid-sentence he would change topics and tell a story everytime a radial flew overhead. Quite distracting when you were trying to take notes and then had to backtrack and figure out where he was.

My academic advisor was a real piece of work, probably the biggest scum-bag I've ever met in aviation. At orientation, he told us how proud we should be to be here. He also told us how he was half-deaf from flying Lears. Then, told us how we should all have no problem getting hired by the airlines because of our ERAU degrees. Well, when I went to tell him I was transferring out, I mentioned the reason I cam here was because I thought this would look good on my resume when I apply to the airlines someday. His only response was that the airlines won't hire me. "The airlines won't hire you." That's all he had to say. (I've been tempting to send him a picture of me flying the 767) That's all he had to say. I told him the mood surely changes quick when they receive a check for 5 grand.

Anyways, the long and the short of it is that they advertise one thing and then fail to live up to it. The school I transfered to was not as well-known in aviation, but the staff, the facilities, and the training aids were much, much better. The quality of the education I received was tenfold better for half the price.

My big beef with Riddle is that they advertise themselves to be the "Harvard of Aviation". The only thing I will say that they can deliver on is that you will get an education and you will spend a lot of money. Luckily, I don't have anymore schoold debt. But, I know people who graduated from there the same time I graduated from my college, and they had between $90K-100K in student loans. Years later, they had no more of an advantage than me or anyone else in this industry.

My experience with Riddle was over 15 years ago. In that time I have recommended it to nobody and have talked several out of going there and attending other colleges instead. In my case, my dislike towards Riddle is from a personal experience with them. I have many friends who graduated from there, and they are great professional pilots. At the same time I know people who graduated from my university and are not as professional. A mixed bag. But, my ill feelings are towards the staff and administration, not the students.

 

[General Lee]

I still like "Empty Nipple."


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[I.P. Freley]

My experience with Riddle was over 15 years ago. In that time I have recommended it to nobody and have talked several out of going there and attending other colleges instead. In my case, my dislike towards Riddle is from a personal experience with them. I have many friends who graduated from there, and they are great professional pilots. At the same time I know people who graduated from my university and are not as professional. A mixed bag. But, my ill feelings are towards the staff and administration, not the students.

Okay, fair enough. I had a much different experience... Almost all of my professors were professional and I learned what I expected to learn, though I didn't believe then and don't now that an ERAU degree automatically places you at the top of the heap. I made the most I could out of the education I received there, even though at times I felt like it was a joke (like when I got one of those professors who needed a poke in the eye with a sharp stick), and thankfully I didn't run up a gigantic student loan bill. Well, not as gigantic as some of those you mentioned, though it still seems plenty gigantic.

Much of the bad rep that individual ERAU grads get is on the basis of the 22 yr-old hotshot who demands an RJ three weeks after graduation... But I didn't know those people, didn't want anything to do with those people, and avoid those people today. It does get old quickly, however, when you get a guy from Western Michigan carrying on about what bunch of rubes Riddle guys are and how he got a better education for less etc., etc., etc., thus behaving even more badly than the fabled "Riddle Rat". Basically, anyone who attempts to make themselves seem better or smarter on the basis of their university needs to be beaten with a pillowcase full of doorknobs.

Unfortunately, most of the people in the regionals (especially) who need this beating seem to be Riddle guys (law of averages, you know, there's more of them and that one-in-ten idiot means there's thousands of idiots to choose from). I recognize that and think it's unfortunate for the vast majority of Riddle people who just keep their head down and do their job in a competent and professional manner to have to be tarred and feathered because everyone else has their personal "Riddle guy we love to hate".