Trouble at AMR

[eaglefly]

Just read the APA's "one list" proposal to AMR.

It appears to be a terrible deal for Eagle pilots.

As this proposal makes its way around the Eagle system over the next days and weeks it will undoubtedly drive a stake through the heart of any hope cooperation between the APA and Eagle pilots.

Thankfully, we have contractual rights that we currently do, so at least we can hold onto that.

Tragically, it appears that under the current proposal the only way for the APA to take over our flying would be to attempt to do it forcefully.

AMR wins again as AA pilots and Eagle pilots will end up back in their respective corners as adversaries.

 

[Publishers]

Evident

If anything should be evident, it is the extent that AMR will go to avoid one list in any way shape or form no matter how guised.

 

[dogg]

Eaglefly, post the proposal so the rest of us can see what those dogs at the APA are up to. Put it out to the court of public opinion, the strongest court in the land

 

[Lumber Yak]

I understand the argument that regional pilots endorse - they believe they should be included on the mainline seniority list. However, from an AMR corporate perspective, it makes more sense to have two separate bargaining groups - otherwise, the total pilot group has more negotiating leverage... Why should this be unexpected? It's intuitive from a business perspective - but not popular among pilots...

It amazes me sometimes when I hear the arrogance and irrational optimism of some regional pilots. I actually heard a Comair CRJ captain boast (and he was serious) that he should be a Delta 767 Captain in the next year or two WHEN the two seniority lists are merged... Is he on crack? Does he think the Delta pilots union would EVER allow that to happen? Short answer: not in a million years...

It's called reality - look into it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You need to look at things from a business perspective sometimes.

 

[eaglefly]

A copy is posted at www.tsalounge.com.

APA wants to obtain control of ALL of Eagles aircraft and flying. Then it wants to see the AA mainline furloughees be the first to benefit from Eagle vacancies. Only, then APA will consider rights and protections for current Eagle pilots.

Most likely AMR won't go for it either.

Sadly, the APA has "shown their colors" and has lost the trust of the current Eagle pilot group. It will be tough to gain it back.

In any case, the Eagle pilots are now fully aware that APA's interests hold very little value for Eagle pilots and no "one list" concept could ever work unless these two groups want it to.

Thus it appears that our pilot group will refuse cooperation with them in the future.

Too bad, many here had hope for a resolution to all the outsourcing.

The only way for APA to get our flying now would be for them to forcefully attempt to get it.

Good Luck.

 

[SF3CA]

All Flying Proposal


The APA proposal on all flying suggested creating a commuter
supplement to take the place of the current commuter air carrier
exception. All commuter flying and only commuter flying would be
performed by American Airlines pilots under the commuter
supplement. Commuter supplement flying would be defined by a
seat limitation (50 seats and below), weight limitation
(certificated weight of ERJ-145) and fuselage width limitation
(width of ERJ-145).


Flying would be limited by the above definition and AA pilots
would perform the flying. The restrictions would be based on:
. A maximum hull count based on narrow body aircraft'
. Hub arrival and departure ratios;
. Hub-to-hub prohibitions with very few possible exceptions;
. Block hour limits based on narrow body block hours, and;
. All commuter supplement operations would be limited to domestic
(including Canada/Mexico) and Caribbean divisions.


Maintaining these restrictions while foregoing other restrictions
currently in place would allow management to offset cost
increases by enhancing revenue potential (50 vs. 44 seats and
fewer specific market prohibitions). At this time, APA has made
no proposals regarding the specific numbers in these restrictions.


We made no explicit proposal regarding work rules or
compensation. We told management work rules and compensation
should be industry leading when compared to other commuter
carriers. Management decided to perform comparison and analysis
of this commuter supplement operation by modeling it after the
Comm Air contract and adding a premium. That analysis is ongoing
and will be reported to APA when negotiations commence next year.


APA proposed that all American Eagle pilots become AA pilots
flying under the commuter supplement. Seniority ramifications
would be negotiated between APA and ALPA. APA also proposed the
following:


. AA pilots on furlough would have access to all small jet
vacancies in the commuter supplement and commuter supplement
pilots could not access mainline vacancies until all furloughees
are recalled to the mainline.
. Commuter supplement pilots would gain the right to exercise
mainline seniority numbers when they upgrade to Captain.
. Company could hire into either commuter supplement or mainline
vacancies.
. Commuter supplement pilots would have access to mainline at
some agreed to ratio (specific number not determined). Assumes no
mainline pilot is furloughed.
. Mainline pilots would have the option of accepting a
displacement to the commuter supplement or a furlough in a down
cycle.
. Mainline pilots could only displace into commuter supplement
Captain positions. Only pilots displaced from commuter supplement
bid statuses would have recall rights into the commuter
supplement (except all current furloughees could recall into the
commuter supplement).
. Commuter supplement pilots cannot displace into mainline bid
statuses unless they had previously held any mainline bid status.


Good luck Eagle Guys!

 

[Lumber Yak]

Irony...

I appreciate that all pilots want to protect their professional futures and ensure both job security and a good wage. But you have to agree that these inflexible scope clauses CAN'T HELP much with regard to restoring industry profits.... They seem like a real hindrance - it's ironic - pretty soon United and AMR pilots might not have airplanes to fly because of (among many reasons) their own airplane limitations... Matching supply with demand can be very profitable. Scope limitations could be a contributing factor...

Good luck to all involved!

 

[seagle]

Just read the APA proposal and wondering who will fly the 70 seat CRJ's? Since only 50 seaters were mentioned does this imply that the 70 seaters go to AA? The proposal was somewhat vague and personally I don't believe the company will go for it. Thanks in advance. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all.

 

[justApilot]

I really don't see it as a bad deal for those Eagle guys looking for a career with a major. FACT: Not everyone makes it to the big leagues, some will spend their entire careers in the minors. That's just the way life is. Look you get an AA number or you can stay at Eagle for the time being and hope for the best. I think that with the stagnation at the majors that recalls won't even start for 5+ years. Then you have to figure it will take a few more maybe another 5 years to get hired with a major if you are one of the lucky few. That is 7-10 years away my friends. 7-10 years. Life is all about making decisions. This is your window of opportunity Eagle. Take it. You May never get another chance.

But what do I know...I am just a pilot!

This post is not meant to be the start of an us against them pissing contest. Good luck to everyone.

 

[DougCorp-9]

Management decided to perform comparison and analysis
of this commuter supplement operation by modeling it after the
Comm Air contract and adding a premium.

Who the hell is Comm Air? I have heard of Comair, in fact I use to work there. Has the APA heard of proofreading?

 

[corky]

There needs to be some wording in there that says mainline can't hire new pilots until all commuter supplement pilots are off furlough

 

[pilot141]

Just a typo?

Jeez, DC-9, I guess at Comair they taught you guys to never make a typo on an internet message board? Maybe instead of hours of groundschool on proofreading you guys guys could take some schooling on flying?

Of course I am KIDDING. I am just pointing out the pointlessness of trying to disparage someone on these boards because of a simple typo.

The point here (as I understand it) is a free exchange of ideas, and that is NOT helped by someone denigrating another member for grammatical errors. If you understand the post, then the point is made.

From what I have seen, the APA proposal is very flexible. In fact management has requested a week off from Section 6 negotiations to look over the proposal. They also had a scheduling conflict with one their negotiators, but I still take this as a positive sign.

The point is that the APA is looking to do something different than what ALPA has done at DAL, UAL and USAir. By eventually getting everyone on one list the company is more flexible and can deploy jets as needed in different markets without worrying about scope clauses. I have no idea how the seniority lists might be merged, but as in any compromise, somone will be pissed.

Whether that is the junior guys on the AA list p ), or the junior guys on the Eagle list, I cannot say. What I do know is that the industry is changing, and AMR cannot keep doing what is has been doing.

What I see is AMR focusing on its international route structure, and biasing its domestic system to feed the international moneymaker. This probably means some (not a lot) of shrinkage in the domestic system, but if UAL goes Chapter 7 then everyone could be growing and gobbling up parts.

I honestly think that the "one list" idea is at least worth looking at in this time and age. The business has changed for the majors, and some thinking "outside the box" is needed. "One list" may not be a solution, but I think it is a better idea than the "airline within an airline" that has been tried again and again.

 

[DH200]

Review?

"In fact management has requested a week off from Section 6 negotiations to look over the proposal. "

Right! Could have something to do with...................Christmas?

You've obviously never talked at length with an Eagle pilot. In case you don't know where to find one, just look down.

 

[pilot141]

(Very patiently)

No, DH200, the week off from negotiations was LAST week (Dec 16-20th). This week, of course, already had a break for Christmas planned.

I spent 6 months in a crash pad with several Eagle pilots, and none of them seemed as patronizing as you. In fact, they were all great guys. I left the crashpad eight months ago so I haven't talked to them about this issue. I am curious as to their take on this proposal.

Note that I said their take on this issue, not yours.

 

[DH200]

Pilot 141

I don't mean to sound bitter, but much has changed since you crashed with the Eagle guys.
I know you're concerned for ALL pilots at AMR. I'm sorry if I offended you at all. We're in this mess together.
It's the way AMR does business that angers many at Eagle. I worked for another airline that was swallowed up by AMR, and the experience has not been a good one. Even before 9-11, things were headed in a very bad direction. The "us vs them" mentality is so childish and counter-productive. If a corporation is to survive and prosper, EVERYONE should be pulling in the same direction. I hate to sound like a broken record, but look at who's successful. Southwest and JetBlue. AMR loves conflict within it's ranks, and I see this proposal as another example of corporate gamesmanship.
I hope it all works out well, but I have little hope of seeing things change for the better any time soon.

I truely wish everyone a merry x-mas, and a happy new year.

 

[G4G5]

I am not sure where most of you are getting your info from but the crew lounge is not the best source.

First off NO jobs at Eagle will be lost:
Carty is on record stating that he will NOT put 1000 Eagle pilot's out on the street, only to retrain AA pilots to do the same job. The company can not afford 1000 needless training cycles.

Jobs for Eagle will be GAINED:
The APA proposal is clear, "All AA flying will be done by APA pilots". Who is feeding AA in STL? This is the quickest most effictive way to get rid of the reverse code sharing that is stealing jobs. How many Eagle jobs will be created by gaining the Trans States and Chitaqua feed? Plenty. So far ALPA has been helpless in this job loss.

This will also create the ability for growth in the under 50 seat market. Right now AA has an agreement to sell Executive because they can't grow Eagle under the current APA scope clause. This deal allows Eagle to keep Executive AND grow in the under 50 seat market.

Pay will go UP
What can Eagle do under it's current ALPA contract, NOTHING. No money. With a merger into APA, the pay issue WILL be revisited to bring the new AA/Eagle pilots upto or ahead of the industry(I'll leave this to the negotiators). The APA is not about to work for the current Eagle rates BUT they will work for an improved Com Air max pilot rate. Carty will go for this because he knows he's going to pay it sooner or later. But if he goes for it today he get unlimited growth in the RJ market, waiting years could put us at a competitive disadvantage.

The 70 seater will go to the AA pilots.
My guess is that anything above the 50 seater will go to APA. So what? The current deal will have the Eagle pilots flow through into AA mainline, so your chances of getting to a 70 seater will improve because AA will be allowed to purchase unlimited 70 seaters(because it will not longer be restricted by Scope). How long will it take most Eagle guys to get into the left seat of the 20-RJ70's? Will an improved flowthrough to mainline improve the career expectations for most of the Eagle pilots. Yes. Is this deal worth voting No on just to protect 20- RJ70 jobs, NO. Especially considering that for most Eagle pilots it will improve their chances to get into an RJ70(since their will be more, see Comair/ASA)

The 70 seater has always been the APA's, if they desired. Fact: Carty first offered up these during the last contract TA. He wants unlimited growth, he's not concerned about who flies it. With the current Scope clause, APA contract already has ALL flying over 75,000# (going to AA mainline). So what do the Eagle pilots get if AA mgt decides to purchase the new ERJ 170 and 90 seaters vs the Bombardier RJ70? Nothing, because it weighs more then 75,000#, it goes to mainline. Considering AA's current ties to Embarer and the fact that they are offering much better financing then the CRJ70's, is this a chance the Eagle pilots should take? No, the APA could cut a deal with AA mgt on it's own getting ALL the ERJ 170/190 flying, and leave Eagle with nothing.

So tell me again how you are getting screwed?
Growth is improved
Jobs are created, not lost
Pay is improved
Career expectations are improved
humm...........

http://www.embraer.com/english/

 

[pilotyip]

Pay go up?

With AA loosing $M's per day, where is the extra money going to come from to pay the Eagel pilots more, when the Eagel pilots get more, are the Eagle Mechs going be happy with their present rate, how about FA's, ground support. The day of the regular pay increase is over at the major's and anyone who thinks otherwise is in a state of denial.

 

[80drvr]

Re: Pay go up?

With AA loosing $M's per day, where is the extra money going to come from to pay the Eagel pilots more, when the Eagel pilots get more, are the Eagle Mechs going be happy with their present rate, how about FA's, ground support. The day of the regular pay increase is over at the major's and anyone who thinks otherwise is in a state of denial.

The money is going to come out of the APA/AA contract currently in negotiations. APA will pay for one list out of some part of the contract pie....how much it costs is to be determined and that cost has to be weighed against the benefit to AMR as well as the APA pilots.

 

[captain]

from what it looks to me the only thing that they will do with the payscale is maybe make the Eagle FO payscale top out at 12 years instead of 8. Oh, but you will have a number!

 

[deceptibum]

apa proposal

I just have a question for all the AA pilots with knowledge of the latest "merge" proposal. Have any of you even asked the eagle pilot group about their opinions on it? From all the talk AA pilots give of how it would be so much better for us, I ask you to go out in the airport and listen the eagle pilot opinion. I assure you it differs greatly.