Tranny ALPA MEC - Dragging their feet

[madjack]

The only big unknown then becomes the 717 pay. Do they really hold it back and create a B-scale pilot group within the company?

Good question, SWAPA will be negotiating those rates with SWA correct?...can't see them negotiating anything less than our -500 (122 seats) which is the same rate as the -300/700...

Bad timing for no qrowth announcement in 2012...ws hoping Mr Kelly would have announced 30 -800 order...oh well...out of our hands...

 

[Empennage]

fine.


I cant take the snake oil salesmen on here anymore. Your right. I am losing it.

Jt thank you. You have certainly used your right to freedom of speech

Your MEC needs an opportunity to work through this. There are many complexities to the deal. While you have seen sl9, there may be other items, facts and details which make it so much more potentially complicated than the bullet points appear to be.

Additionally you are making an emotional decision using an emotional thought process making emotional statements. I agree it's hard not to be. Swa pilots are guilty of the same thing. You are fostering debate however and that's a good thing.

You will get your say and I'm pretty sure it will be in a vote. To say there will be no vote is another emotional argument. You need to vote. Your MEC needs you to vote. It's your future. It appears you will take control of it and I hope you do.

 

[Flycatcher99]

Like I said. I would not wish our level of disappointment on you guys.

You don't have to. It's already there. Evidently you cannot fathom this, from the comments you make here, but our career expectations as SWA FO's have taken a hit. We now have 800+ new captains that, in essence, got hired off the street. GK has said that due to industry and economic concerns, we will not grow, and in fact will have less capacity in 2012 than 2011.

Right now it is the other way around, and I doubt all 6000 of u will be PO'd even after it goes to arbitration. I serverly doubt it unless we get a 20% bump in senority and you guys take a 38% loss. I doubt even an arbitrator would do that.

If you are insinuating that SWA guys got a 20% bump in seniority, I'd like to see your math. I personally got a 9% bump, which, by the way, will make little to no difference in my life. Yes, you guys did take a big seniority hit, and I can imagine your pain, but it was not without recompense, and a lot of it, when you consider both pay and benefits. I will be flying with AAI guys who are junior to me, who are making $60k+ more per year than I.

You know I am tired of the threats. Luv my arse. Go fek yourselfs. Suck my !#$!#$

I'm sorry you all feel threatened, but no one here has any power to make you feel that way (or shouldn't anyway). The only one is GK, and if I were you, I would feel some trepidation at turning this down, because he is not averse to seeking other paths to avoid unnecessary expense. If it makes you feel any better, we feel somewhat threatened on our side, due to GK insisting that he save training costs by protecting your seats, even out of seniority.

Of course, it's all just business, and it's not personal. I just don't want you to think that you have a monopoly on misery. Whether you agree with it or not, the fact is that SWA FO's have been dealt a hit to their career expectations, with nothing to make up for it. You've been dealt a seniority hit (as you should have, being the smaller, lesser valued, and acquired carrier), but with a windfall of financial gains that should more than make up for the pain.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Whether you agree with it or not, the fact is that SWA FO's have been dealt a hit to their career expectations, with nothing to make up for it. You've been dealt a seniority hit (as you should have, being the smaller, lesser valued, and acquired carrier), but with a windfall of financial gains that should more than make up for the pain.

Career expectations? What did you think was going to happen, SWA was going to organically grow 30% a year forever?

When I got hired, there were guys who made the left seat in 18 months. Then it went to 3 years, then 6 years. Now our F/Os are looking at 11 years in the right seat.

The only career expectation you had as a SWA new hire was to be a 737 CA SOMEDAY. That was exactly the same expectation an AAI pilot had.

And, again, it amuses me that you guys equate their pay raise with grabbing THEIR seniority.

Admit it, all of you...the only FAIR way to merge these lists:

1. No bump/no flush
2. Pre-1993 SWA hires on the list
3. Ratio the rest.

Everything else is just B.S. And the outright hubris of the SWA F/Os here is getting a bit annoying.

 

[madjack]

Career expectations? What did you think was going to happen, SWA was going to organically grow 30% a year forever?

No but I didn't expect to be pulling gear for a guy/gal hired at AAI 4 years after I was hired at SWA who is making $70K more a year than I am...what is your point?

 

[madjack]

1. No bump/no flush
2. Pre-1993 SWA hires on the list
3. Ratio the rest.

Add no seat protection, and you got a deal!! AAI CPs may not like that...

 

[Flycatcher99]

Career expectations? What did you think was going to happen, SWA was going to organically grow 30% a year forever?

When I got hired, there were guys who made the left seat in 18 months. Then it went to 3 years, then 6 years. Now our F/Os are looking at 11 years in the right seat.

The only career expectation you had as a SWA new hire was to be a 737 CA SOMEDAY. That was exactly the same expectation an AAI pilot had.

And, again, it amuses me that you guys equate their pay raise with grabbing THEIR seniority.

Admit it, all of you...the only FAIR way to merge these lists:

1. No bump/no flush
2. Pre-1993 SWA hires on the list
3. Ratio the rest.

Everything else is just B.S. And the outright hubris of the SWA F/Os here is getting a bit annoying.

Nothing I'm posting is hubristic. I only posted facts, which you cannot refute.

I never said we would grow 30% a year. No one knows better than I do that the growth is simply not going to be much. But what you want me to believe is that there would have been NO organic growth at SWA through 2020. Because if there had been, I would have been better with even a minute amount of growth over the next 10 years than with this acquisition. All AAI brings to SWA FOs is 160 retirements over ten years, and not starting until December 2012. Also, from GK's comments today, we are looking at an immediate reduction in capacity compared to the two carriers' combined operations prior to acquisition. So not only are 800+ new captains coming on property, but we also will see a likely reduction in need for crews.

So, is it hubristic for me to think that your company is taking away an earlier upgrade for me? No. Is it hubristic for me to compare this "growth by acquisition", this sudden Captain growth of 800+ Captains from outside of our ranks with what might have occurred if you all didn't come on property? Absolutely not.

I acknowledged your pain. For you to refuse to see ours shows who owns the hubris.

 

[Cometman]

Career expectations? What did you think was going to happen, SWA was going to organically grow 30% a year forever?

When I got hired, there were guys who made the left seat in 18 months. Then it went to 3 years, then 6 years. Now our F/Os are looking at 11 years in the right seat.

The only career expectation you had as a SWA new hire was to be a 737 CA SOMEDAY. That was exactly the same expectation an AAI pilot had.

And, again, it amuses me that you guys equate their pay raise with grabbing THEIR seniority.

Admit it, all of you...the only FAIR way to merge these lists:

1. No bump/no flush
2. Pre-1993 SWA hires on the list
3. Ratio the rest.

Everything else is just B.S. And the outright hubris of the SWA F/Os here is getting a bit annoying.

Do you really care? You do not work at either carrier so why should you care how they vote? Worry about yourself. Getting all worked up about something that will not involve you is really stupid. But then again?

 

[redflyer65]

If you are insinuating that SWA guys got a 20% bump in seniority, I'd like to see your math. I personally got a 9% bump, which, by the way, will make little to no difference in my life.

Nice post Fly, and spot on.

Everyone is feeling some pain in this deal. There are a lot of SW FO's that are livid over this deal.

I can't comprehend how you came up with a 23% number, most seniority bumps are in the single digits, some in the lower singles. Look at it this way....if every single AAI pilot was stapled to the bottom, the SW pilot gain through the 50% level would be a 20% bump....THAT'S WITH A COMPLETE STAPLE.

The mathmatics show that 1700 pilots just doesn't move the needle that much when ratioed to 6000 pilots like this ISL shows.

Fubi,

The career expectations are drastically different when AAI CA rates equal our FO rates. Is that so hard to see?

RF

 

[madjack]

Hey Tranny's...cry me a river, take it to arbitration, I could give a rat's ass...you might get a better deal, but the company that acquired you has put an offer on the table that works for them fiscally, you want to go all ghetto ALPA and tell management to F-off, we are going to arby, fine...you get what you pay for I guess...

 

[PCL_128]

We now have 800+ new captains that, in essence, got hired off the street.

Really? Did Delta get 3,000 street captains when they purchased NWA? Ridiculous. Those captain seats are coming with our airplanes. They don't belong to you, and you aren't owed them.

 

[JT12345]

Now that I had time to play with my kids and the train set, and got to relax some; apprecaite what is really important I just want to correct somethings...

A junior reserve SWA Capt does not make 70K more than a Senior line holder SWA FO. I have been told 10-20k more.

As for off the street.... the pilots are bringing the airplanes with them. It is not the same thing.

Off the street is when the airplanes were coming from the yellow pages or the factory usually brand new. The FOs are too inexperienced to qualify for the insurance to fly them or the management wants them to have more experience. Obviously the SWAFOs have the exp.

More snake oil.

 

[JT12345]

Tell u what.... give AAI relative senority. That way our Captains keep their seats.... we dont need a fence for them then. The company saves training costs avoiding a shuffle and they don't have to pay the 1.25 to FOs flying with junior Captains.

And fence me out of the left seat for the 8-9 years unless our respective SWA/AAI DOH allows it sooner.

I get a slight bump in senority. You guys barely see it because u are 3 times bigger with 7 bases. You still upgrade ahead of me because I am fenced out... probably

Same deal as you got but opposite. Only it is less effective to senority percentage change wise on both sides.

 

[Flycatcher99]

A junior reserve SWA Capt does not make 70K more than a Senior line holder SWA FO. I have been told 10-20k more.

Who told you that? Did they also tell you that a SWA Captains makes $60/trip more than an FO? How does that only add up to $10-20k more? Simple math here: multiply 100 trips times $60 times 12 months, and tell me what you come up with. Yes, some FOs do better by picking up open flying as their seniority allows, but that means that (duhhh) they're working more days to earn more money.

As for off the street.... the pilots are bringing the airplanes with them. It is not the same thing.

Off the street is when the airplanes were coming from the yellow pages or the factory usually brand new. The FOs are too inexperienced to qualify for the insurance to fly them or the management wants them to have more experience. Obviously the SWAFOs have the exp.

More snake oil.

Okay, what part of "growth by acquisition" versus "organic growth" do you not understand? Yes, we are growing more by acquisition than we would have organically, I will grant you that. But you want us to think we would not have grown at all organically over the next 10 years. Not likely, if at all possible. The realistic, albeit small, amount of organic growth I would have seen would have brought me closer to upgrading than this deal will. Period.

Thus, for SWA FOs, this deal is comparable to hiring street captains. Do they bring airplanes? Yes, but they bring more pilots than we will end up needing for the airplanes they're bringing, due to shrinkage of the manning model (12.7 pilots/AC for AAI vs. 10.5 pilots/AC for SWA), reduction of stations we will serve (they just announced the first four this week), and pull-back due to economic uncertainties (announced by GK today).

 

[doer42]

Mr Kelly will have to deal with 6000 REALLY PO'd SWA Pilots and 1700 overjoyed AAI pilots...

Would you or anyone really be that mad if you got only a 10% bump in seniority vs a 20+% bump overnight on the backs of the trannies? Think how long it took to get every 10% increase prior to this. Think of this only in terms of the deal you are getting not what someone else is, i.e. their pay raise. Just a question.

 

[JT12345]

Yes, but they bring more pilots than we will end up needing for the airplanes they're bringing, due to shrinkage of the manning model (12.7 pilots/AC for AAI vs. 10.5 pilots/AC for SWA), reduction of stations we will serve (they just announced the first four this week), and pull-back due to economic uncertainties (announced by GK today).

You heard first from a SWA pilot.

For the junior AAI Captains. You thought the plan was to grow outta the fences and senority lapses when in reality they are hinting at reductions.

Reductions means the fence can't help you from what I hear. Only senority can.

 

[redflyer65]

JT,

This is a done deal buddy. I was pissed when I first saw it. I don't like all the things that all the other SW pilots don't like..

the big ones are, 815 CA seat locks, 1:1 furlough off the bottom (where in history has anyone furloughed out of seniority order), no equity stake for the SW pilots (has nothing to do with the AAI guys), and not pay protecting the senior FO's.

I'm starting to realize that despite all that I list above, this deal is the best that both sides could come up with. Arbitration? I'm not afraid of it what-so-ever because the gains on a blank sheet of paper are all yours.

These two things that would mostly come out of an arbitrated decision..

1-AAI captains keep their seats with fences
2- Most AAI FO's are on the bottom.

So the big question is.... where is the difference? Plus we get to negotiate together on the other items...717 pay, CBA transition, etc.

RF

 

[Lear70]

2- Most AAI FO's are on the bottom.

Our attorneys disagree with that one. Most scenarios that mirror recent arbitration decisions of close to relative seniority, then adjusting slightly for pay rate differences and adjust more heavily for retirements being heavily weighted on the SWA side come pretty close to a Date of Hire solution for our F/O's, which is a 12-18% loss of relative seniority, but better than the 26-34% this deal gives them.

Your attorneys may be saying something different, but all we can go by is the counsel we are being given which doesn't say anything close to "most AAI F/O's are on the bottom".

Just so you understand where JT and others are coming from.

 

[redflyer65]

Fair enough Lear, that's an awfully big dice for you guys to roll if you decide to. And make no mistake, there is a downside almost immediately in doing so. Absolutely no threats, most of if was guaranteed from GK, not SWAPA. That's a tough call if it gets out of the MEC. I'm with you though, I think it makes it to the pilot group and passes. I'm not smart enough to guess percentages.

Another small point, with an arbitor's decision.. it might come with different fences as well. Possibly more onerous for one side than the other. We'll see.

RF

 

[Empennage]

Same deal as you got but opposite. Only it is less effective to senority percentage change wise on both sides.

Now that right there is funny.