To: ASA PILOTS

[acarpe3448]

So should I hold ALL Delta pilots responsible for your postings regarding CMR pilots?

Sure go ahead! I don't give a fuc$ about Comair pilots! End of Story!

 

[ArcticFlier]

Way to support your union bretheren..............

 

[Tomct]

Way to support your union bretheren..............

Well, when they have stabbed you in the back....TWICE, I'm sorry, they loose my support!

 

[ArcticFlier]

[Serious question]ALERT[/Serious question]

Has the Delta pilot always supported the Comair pilot? Or has the Delta pilot been know to stab them in the back.............or any other union pilot stabbed another in the back for that matter?

Your support for another group is your choice, however, you may not want to be in a glass house when doing so.

 

[737 Pylt]

[Serious question]ALERT[/Serious question]

Has the Delta pilot always supported the Comair pilot? Or has the Delta pilot been know to stab them in the back.............or any other union pilot stabbed another in the back for that matter?

Your support for another group is your choice, however.

AF:
There you go again, talking about things you don't have a clue. Not from just a union standpoint, but life in general. But that's become typical of you.....The DL pilots supported the CMR pilots during their strike by paying assessment fees, walking the picket line with them, allowing them to use our strike center and making sure no flying done by DL pilots was considered struck work as to honor their strike.
Stick to things you're good at....Like flying 70 seaters for 50 seat wages!
What has Skywest done to better the profession??

737

 

[ArcticFlier]

AF:
There you go again, talking about things you don't have a clue. Not from just a union standpoint, but life in general. But that's become typical of you.....The DL pilots supported the CMR pilots during their strike by paying assessment fees, walking the picket line with them, allowing them to use our strike center and making sure no flying done by DL pilots was considered struck work as to honor their strike.
Stick to things you're good at....Like flying 70 seaters for 50 seat wages!
What has Skywest done to better the profession??

737

It was serious question, but then again you aren't capable of seeing that. You want to assign me the priviledge of flying the 70 for 50 seat pay. You know not of what you speak. I'm not checked out on the 70 as we don't have any of that flying in FAT. The rates are now "split", although not to my liking, so we don't fly the 70 for 50 pay anymore. I didn't vote for it, nor did many, yet you want to assign blanket blame to all SKYW pilots. If that makes you sleep at night, great. Am I happy that pay "vote" (joke that it was) went down the way it did? Not even........ but it is what it is.

Glad to hear the DL guys stuck up for the Comair guys............THAT'S WHY I ASKED THE QUESTION! I don't fly for either, so I'm not privy to the nuances of what happened. Again, THAT'S WHY I ASKED! Not my fault that you read sarcasm (or whatever) into my question.

As to what SKYW has done to better the profession, How many out there can honestly say that they haven't taken it in the shorts in one fashion or another at one time or another since 2001? We'll keep trying to raise the bar..........but that means getting a whole lot of newbies and fence sitters on board. That's never easy when it comes to voting in a union.

 

[acarpe3448]

It was serious question, but then again you aren't capable of seeing that. You want to assign me the priviledge of flying the 70 for 50 seat pay. You know not of what you speak. I'm not checked out on the 70 as we don't have any of that flying in FAT. The rates are now "split", although not to my liking, so we don't fly the 70 for 50 pay anymore. I didn't vote for it, nor did many, yet you want to assign blanket blame to all SKYW pilots. If that makes you sleep at night, great. Am I happy that pay "vote" (joke that it was) went down the way it did? Not even........ but it is what it is.

Glad to hear the DL guys stuck up for the Comair guys............THAT'S WHY I ASKED THE QUESTION! I don't fly for either, so I'm not privy to the nuances of what happened. Again, THAT'S WHY I ASKED! Not my fault that you read sarcasm (or whatever) into my question.

As to what SKYW has done to better the profession, How many out there can honestly say that they haven't taken it in the shorts in one fashion or another at one time or another since 2001? We'll keep trying to raise the bar..........but that means getting a whole lot of newbies and fence sitters on board. That's never easy when it comes to voting in a union.

When times were the lowest for the Delta pilots, the Comair pilots decided to fight our furloughs (myself included) from flying at Comair unless we resigned our senority! They wrote a letter stating that they were against it! That same letter said that they could make an exception if we dumped our scope and let them have as many 70,90 seaters as they wanted. They wanted to get rid of planed percentages etc! Bottom line, the Comair pilots tried to arrange to take as much Delta flying as possible, for cheaper rates than Delta pilots, thus ensuring we would not be recalled for a much, much longer time! They try to deny it! But we can post that letter any day of the week! These guys are not my brothers and no Delta pilots want any of them on our airplanes.!

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Nonetheless, the outlook at Delta isn't terribly good for an ASA pilot who isn't on the "friends and family" program......

 

[ArcticFlier]

Thanks for the honest answer.................

When times were the lowest for the Delta pilots, the Comair pilots decided to fight our furloughs (myself included) from flying at Comair unless we resigned our senority! They wrote a letter stating that they were against it! That same letter said that they could make an exception if we dumped our scope and let them have as many 70,90 seaters as they wanted. They wanted to get rid of planed percentages etc! Bottom line, the Comair pilots tried to arrange to take as much Delta flying as possible, for cheaper rates than Delta pilots, thus ensuring we would not be recalled for a much, much longer time! They try to deny it! But we can post that letter any day of the week! These guys are not my brothers and no Delta pilots want any of them on our airplanes.!

Fair enough. Now again, not knowing all of the details, as you guys were furloughed and flowed back to Comair, would that have put junior Comair guys on the street?

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Fair enough. Now again, not knowing all of the details, as you guys were furloughed and flowed back to Comair, would that have put junior Comair guys on the street?

It was never a question of flowback. It was about CMR hiring DAL guys to the bottom of the list without requiring them to resign their positions at Delta. Comair management, along with the MEC, said that was unacceptable. Many regional, ASA included, allowed DAL furloughs to be hired onto the bottom of the list without resigning their positions at DAL.

IMHO, the CMR MEC position of not allowing DAL furloughees to hire on to the bottom of CMR's seniority list was nothing more than J.C. and crew saying, "You screwed us, now we get to screw you." In reality, CMR was never screwed by DAL, and egos got in the way of common sense and good will.

Bottom line... any ALPA carrier should welcome furloughees from another ALPA carrier without requiring them to resign from the airline they are furloughed from. It's the decent thing to do, and it fosters goodwill.

J.C. and crew started a long history of screwing the CMR pilot group with this particular decision.

My opinion, FWIW.

 

[ArcticFlier]

Ah. Got it. Just like what we did vis a vis the UAL guys when they were furloughed. We hired them on, bottom of the list, and they got second(?) year pay. I enjoyed flying with those guys.

Thanks!

 

[John Pennekamp]

Actually the destination is St. Somewhere..... just past the Port of Indecision....

You can shake the hand of the mango man as he greets you at the border.

 

[John Pennekamp]

AF:
There you go again, talking about things you don't have a clue. Not from just a union standpoint, but life in general. But that's become typical of you.....The DL pilots supported the CMR pilots during their strike by paying assessment fees, walking the picket line with them, allowing them to use our strike center and making sure no flying done by DL pilots was considered struck work as to honor their strike.
Stick to things you're good at....Like flying 70 seaters for 50 seat wages!
What has Skywest done to better the profession??

737

Just want to point out for the sake of accuracy that you and the other Delta pilots had no choice on that one. You can stop acting like a hero for "voluntarily" paying something you were required to pay. And many of your brethren are still in bad standing with the union for refusing to pay it.

 

["GO AROUND"]

It was never a question of flowback. It was about CMR hiring DAL guys to the bottom of the list without requiring them to resign their positions at Delta. Comair management, along with the MEC, said that was unacceptable. Many regional, ASA included, allowed DAL furloughs to be hired onto the bottom of the list without resigning their positions at DAL.

IMHO, the CMR MEC position of not allowing DAL furloughees to hire on to the bottom of CMR's seniority list was nothing more than J.C. and crew saying, "You screwed us, now we get to screw you." In reality, CMR was never screwed by DAL, and egos got in the way of common sense and good will.

Bottom line... any ALPA carrier should welcome furloughees from another ALPA carrier without requiring them to resign from the airline they are furloughed from. It's the decent thing to do, and it fosters goodwill.

J.C. and crew started a long history of screwing the CMR pilot group with this particular decision.

My opinion, FWIW.

To get the facts straight:
Comair managment never had a problem with it! It was the Comair MEC that wrote Comair managment and threatened legal action if they hired the DAL guys. Comair managment just like ASA managment never said it was unacceptable.

 

[doh]

Fair enough. Now again, not knowing all of the details, as you guys were furloughed and flowed back to Comair, would that have put junior Comair guys on the street?

Here's what happened: CMR management came to the MEC and asked if they had a problem with hiring Delta pilots who had not resigned their seniority at Delta. The MEC, to our eternal shame, said yes. The proper response wuld have been: hiring is a management decision. If you want us to start making management decisions, we will start by deciding on real work rules, a pension, and real benefits. Now go away with your silly attempt at dividing CMR and Delta pilots. We did not do that, and that is acarpe's biotch with CMR pilots. That is what he holds us all responsible for. It was done without our knowledge, we didn't get to vote on it, but there you go. Am I ashamed that the MEC allowed themselves to be so easily gamed? YES, but I could not and cannot change what they did. Everybody clear on what happened now? Good, ASA pilots, get those resumes out! There is a much better life for you once you bail from the regional HE!!.

 

[acarpe3448]

Fair enough. Now again, not knowing all of the details, as you guys were furloughed and flowed back to Comair, would that have put junior Comair guys on the street?

No it would not have. Delta pilots would have been treated just as any other Comair newhire! The bottom of the list!

 

[acarpe3448]

Here's what happened: CMR management came to the MEC and asked if they had a problem with hiring Delta pilots who had not resigned their seniority at Delta. The MEC, to our eternal shame, said yes. The proper response wuld have been: hiring is a management decision. If you want us to start making management decisions, we will start by deciding on real work rules, a pension, and real benefits. Now go away with your silly attempt at dividing CMR and Delta pilots. We did not do that, and that is acarpe's biotch with CMR pilots. That is what he holds us all responsible for. It was done without our knowledge, we didn't get to vote on it, but there you go. Am I ashamed that the MEC allowed themselves to be so easily gamed? YES, but I could not and cannot change what they did. Everybody clear on what happened now? Good, ASA pilots, get those resumes out! There is a much better life for you once you bail from the regional HE!!.

Just a few corrections there! All the Comair pilots knew that this was going on! The Comair pilots did not try to remove their ALPA reps over this issue! It was about this same time that they came up with the RJDC law suit against the Delta pilots trying to clean out our contract of what scope we had! They made a senority grab when they were purchased, they fuc$ed the Delta pilots with the no resignation deal, then they filed a billion dollar lawsuit against us to force Delta to give them more and more of our flying! This would have resulted in more job losses at Delta! You Comair pukes know what you did! At least have the balls to tell it correctly!

 

[N2264J]

To get the facts straight:
Comair managment never had a problem with it! It was the Comair MEC that wrote Comair managment and threatened legal action if they hired the DAL guys. Comair managment just like ASA managment never said it was unacceptable.

Here's what happened: CMR management came to the MEC and asked if they had a problem with hiring Delta pilots who had not resigned their seniority at Delta. The MEC, to our eternal shame, said yes.

This kind of hearsay and demagoguery is, at least in part, why there is such acrimony between the two groups.

A management policy was in place and the MEC didn't want to spend negotiating capital to change it without a quid from the Delta MEC. As I've stated before, the Comair MEC, to their credit, didn't want to spend Comair bargaining capital exclusively for the benefit of Delta pilots without something in return (brand scope) from the Delta MEC as well as having Comair pilots shoulder an undue scheduling burden when dozens of Delta pilots were recalled en masse.

If you guys aren't Comair pilots, I'd suggest you stay out of it instead of fanning the flames from the sidelines for your webboard entertainment. Newbies like acarpe and 737 latch on to your misinformation, embellish it and gossip it on to whoever will listen. (Mostly other Delta pilots)

 

[~~~^~~~]

N2264J - True post.

Nothing brings people together like an external threat. For the Delta pilots, ASA and Comair were used as "bogeymen" to help unify their group. Mean while non ALPA carriers actually grew to perform much of the flying and have some how remained off the Delta pilots' target acquisition radar.

Now that the US Air threat appears to be put to bed, I see that the usual suspects are being targeted once again.

It sure would be nice if intelligent pilots would base their opinions on demonstrable, objective, facts instead of crazy off the wall gossip. Everyone seems to agree the Delta interview is difficult - you wonder how people smart enough to get through the process can't follow the history of the relations between the beleaguered pilots who once performed the service of bringing passengers to Delta's mainline operation (and who still do to a lesser extent).

 

[ArcticFlier]

Amazing.................two sides to the story................I'll have to dig further.

 

[Tomct]

It was serious question, but then again you aren't capable of seeing that. You want to assign me the priviledge of flying the 70 for 50 seat pay. You know not of what you speak. I'm not checked out on the 70 as we don't have any of that flying in FAT. The rates are now "split", although not to my liking, so we don't fly the 70 for 50 pay anymore. I didn't vote for it, nor did many, yet you want to assign blanket blame to all SKYW pilots. If that makes you sleep at night, great. Am I happy that pay "vote" (joke that it was) went down the way it did? Not even........ but it is what it is.

Glad to hear the DL guys stuck up for the Comair guys............THAT'S WHY I ASKED THE QUESTION! I don't fly for either, so I'm not privy to the nuances of what happened. Again, THAT'S WHY I ASKED! Not my fault that you read sarcasm (or whatever) into my question.

As to what SKYW has done to better the profession, How many out there can honestly say that they haven't taken it in the shorts in one fashion or another at one time or another since 2001? We'll keep trying to raise the bar..........but that means getting a whole lot of newbies and fence sitters on board. That's never easy when it comes to voting in a union.

ASA can, and we are STILL HOLDING THE LINE!! It may cost us our jobs, but atleast we did not SELL OUT for growth!

 

[DrunkIrishman]

This kind of hearsay and demagoguery is, at least in part, why there is such acrimony between the two groups.

Put the thesaurus down.

 

[ArcticFlier]

It may cost us our jobs

Sounds to me like the ultimate "take it in the shorts", but if you're fine with that, so am I. It's your ass on the line right now. Not mine...........yet. With all due respect, however, how long have you guys gone without a contract? You've already taken it in the shorts, IMHO, possibly with more to come. I hope not.

Our pilot group may have sold out for growth in your opinion, but at least I (among many others) can say I'm trying to do something about it. Probably doesn't help you to feel any better, but I don't live my life caring what others think of me or the pilot group I'm associated with. I just try to do the best I can each day for that same group, and that includes trying to stop some of the nonsense that's been going on here for the last six years. You can see that for what it is, or continue to crap on everyone that doesn't quite see eye to eye with you. Your choice. But the sooner that we all start pulling from the same end of the rope, the better. It's the only way we're going to get back what we've lost since 2001.

Pointing fingers at each other has to end.....................It has a divisive quality to it that turns off many of the newbies and fencesitters that are looking for a reason to shun ALPA. We've been through three(?) ALPA drives (going on four), a Teamsters drive, and an inhouse drive since I've been here. Each and every one of the ALPA drives failed in large part because of the caustic nature of the drive in it's final stages. One failed by a measly six votes. The ballots came in a few days too late. As a side note, the Teamsters drive failed pretty badly as I remember. I don't recall exactly why, but I know I was turned off by the strong arming going on in front of the hangar in PSP by Vinnie and Guido (no offense to my brothers from Jersey). "HEY! Youse guys gonna vote Teamsters, right?" Direct quote.

I'm glad you guys are holding the line. I don't want to see the ultimate solution you speak of happen. Having said that, the trend reversal needs to start somewhere. Will it happen with you guys? Maybe. Will it happen with us? Probably not. Even if we vote in ALPA tomorrow, it's going to be a long time before we can get back to where we were pre 9/11, and that's if things go swimmingly. That won't happen and we all know that. SGU ain't going to roll over just 'cause. You guys know that.

 

[JoeMerchant]

AF:
There you go again, talking about things you don't have a clue. Not from just a union standpoint, but life in general. But that's become typical of you.....The DL pilots supported the CMR pilots during their strike by paying assessment fees, walking the picket line with them, allowing them to use our strike center and making sure no flying done by DL pilots was considered struck work as to honor their strike.
Stick to things you're good at....Like flying 70 seaters for 50 seat wages!
What has Skywest done to better the profession??

737

I have known ArticFlier for about 20 years now (don't hold that against him), and I would rather have him on my side than you any day - with or without ALPA. ArticFlier has probably been doing this longer than you, and he does have a clue. Stick to things you're good at - not having a clue.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

[Serious question]ALERT[/Serious question]

Has the Delta pilot always supported the Comair pilot? Or has the Delta pilot been know to stab them in the back.............or any other union pilot stabbed another in the back for that matter?

Your support for another group is your choice, however, you may not want to be in a glass house when doing so.

AF,
The Delta MEC has filed 3 separate grievances against the ASA and CMR pilots - and they never consulted either the ASA or CMR MECs prior to filing those grievances. 2 were scope grievances - CMR shuttle flying and ASA BAE146 flying. The third was a grievance over ASA and CMR pilots getting the same travel priority on Delta.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Just want to point out for the sake of accuracy that you and the other Delta pilots had no choice on that one. You can stop acting like a hero for "voluntarily" paying something you were required to pay. And many of your brethren are still in bad standing with the union for refusing to pay it.

D@mn!..... 2 posts in a row that I agree with JP on..... the world is coming to an end.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

ASA yr 14.....................$80/hr
DL 3rd yr M88 f/o...........$79/hr
Most junior f/o on payroll is now ATL 7ER f/o (2nd yr pay 7ER f/o.....$77/hr)

Wow John, I'm speechless, you really showed me....It took you 14 years to make what a 3rd year f/o makes at a BK carrier. Things must be better for you at ASA, with all the bitching you do I can see why you want to stay......Carry on!
Of course with all that lawsuit money you'll be a millionaire!

737

No 737, your not speechless, your just an idiot and you can't follow directions. Let's try it one more time. Take 14th. ATR pay, then move the rate to 15th. year ATR pay, then move to 700 pay. Then take all the money lost, and let me know what you come up with. Why would you compare 3rd. year MD80 pay to 14th. yr. ATR pay - you do understand how longevity works don't you????? Try it again and let's see if you can get it right this time.....

 

[John Pennekamp]

D@mn!..... 2 posts in a row that I agree with JP on..... the world is coming to an end.....

Look, our views may be diametrically opposed, but I can call a spade a spade. We do not disagree on everything, and I can even admit that often when I disagree with you, you make many good points. It's when you go off on a rampage about how ALPA is to blame for all the troubles in the industry that you lose me. We both know that the picture is much larger than that, but you hate ALPA and let it affect your logic sometimes.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Just a few corrections there! All the Comair pilots knew that this was going on! The Comair pilots did not try to remove their ALPA reps over this issue! It was about this same time that they came up with the RJDC law suit against the Delta pilots trying to clean out our contract of what scope we had! They made a senority grab [/b]when they were purchased[/b], they fuc$ed the Delta pilots with the no resignation deal, then they filed a billion dollar lawsuit against us to force Delta to give them more and more of our flying! This would have resulted in more job losses at Delta! You Comair pukes know what you did! At least have the balls to tell it correctly!

Are you a complete moron? Delta bought Comair in what, late 1999-early 2000? The RJDC lawsuit came right after the failed PID in 2000. This was about a year before 9/11 and LONG before Delta started furloughing. The issue of the CMR MEC fefusing to fight their management over the furlough issue came in 2004.

And by the way, it's true. The MEC made a bad judgement call, but at the time they were faced with the decision of using THEIR negotiating capitol to help a group who REPEATEDLY and PUBLICLY refused to use theirs to return the favor, or not fighting it and sending the DMEC a message that what goes around comes around. They made a bad choice and perpetuated the bad blood between the two groups. Then the high and mighty Delta pilots decided to teach (how did you put it?) those little "Comair pukes" who the boss is by refusing to hire any of their pilots in the future and cutting inside deals with the management they are in bed with during the bankruptcy to destroy the airline.

Yes, now you're all screwed. I think you all need to grow up and start working together against management, not fighting each other like naughty little kids who can't play nice in the sandbox.

 

[ArcticFlier]

Sounds like some may have a bit of a selective memory.




Hey Joe,

You gonna be out at KWVI this May? How's your brother?