To: ASA PILOTS

[Tomct]

It was serious question, but then again you aren't capable of seeing that. You want to assign me the priviledge of flying the 70 for 50 seat pay. You know not of what you speak. I'm not checked out on the 70 as we don't have any of that flying in FAT. The rates are now "split", although not to my liking, so we don't fly the 70 for 50 pay anymore. I didn't vote for it, nor did many, yet you want to assign blanket blame to all SKYW pilots. If that makes you sleep at night, great. Am I happy that pay "vote" (joke that it was) went down the way it did? Not even........ but it is what it is.

Glad to hear the DL guys stuck up for the Comair guys............THAT'S WHY I ASKED THE QUESTION! I don't fly for either, so I'm not privy to the nuances of what happened. Again, THAT'S WHY I ASKED! Not my fault that you read sarcasm (or whatever) into my question.

As to what SKYW has done to better the profession, How many out there can honestly say that they haven't taken it in the shorts in one fashion or another at one time or another since 2001? We'll keep trying to raise the bar..........but that means getting a whole lot of newbies and fence sitters on board. That's never easy when it comes to voting in a union.

ASA can, and we are STILL HOLDING THE LINE!! It may cost us our jobs, but atleast we did not SELL OUT for growth!

 

[DrunkIrishman]

This kind of hearsay and demagoguery is, at least in part, why there is such acrimony between the two groups.

Put the thesaurus down.

 

[ArcticFlier]

It may cost us our jobs

Sounds to me like the ultimate "take it in the shorts", but if you're fine with that, so am I. It's your ass on the line right now. Not mine...........yet. With all due respect, however, how long have you guys gone without a contract? You've already taken it in the shorts, IMHO, possibly with more to come. I hope not.

Our pilot group may have sold out for growth in your opinion, but at least I (among many others) can say I'm trying to do something about it. Probably doesn't help you to feel any better, but I don't live my life caring what others think of me or the pilot group I'm associated with. I just try to do the best I can each day for that same group, and that includes trying to stop some of the nonsense that's been going on here for the last six years. You can see that for what it is, or continue to crap on everyone that doesn't quite see eye to eye with you. Your choice. But the sooner that we all start pulling from the same end of the rope, the better. It's the only way we're going to get back what we've lost since 2001.

Pointing fingers at each other has to end.....................It has a divisive quality to it that turns off many of the newbies and fencesitters that are looking for a reason to shun ALPA. We've been through three(?) ALPA drives (going on four), a Teamsters drive, and an inhouse drive since I've been here. Each and every one of the ALPA drives failed in large part because of the caustic nature of the drive in it's final stages. One failed by a measly six votes. The ballots came in a few days too late. As a side note, the Teamsters drive failed pretty badly as I remember. I don't recall exactly why, but I know I was turned off by the strong arming going on in front of the hangar in PSP by Vinnie and Guido (no offense to my brothers from Jersey). "HEY! Youse guys gonna vote Teamsters, right?" Direct quote.

I'm glad you guys are holding the line. I don't want to see the ultimate solution you speak of happen. Having said that, the trend reversal needs to start somewhere. Will it happen with you guys? Maybe. Will it happen with us? Probably not. Even if we vote in ALPA tomorrow, it's going to be a long time before we can get back to where we were pre 9/11, and that's if things go swimmingly. That won't happen and we all know that. SGU ain't going to roll over just 'cause. You guys know that.

 

[JoeMerchant]

AF:
There you go again, talking about things you don't have a clue. Not from just a union standpoint, but life in general. But that's become typical of you.....The DL pilots supported the CMR pilots during their strike by paying assessment fees, walking the picket line with them, allowing them to use our strike center and making sure no flying done by DL pilots was considered struck work as to honor their strike.
Stick to things you're good at....Like flying 70 seaters for 50 seat wages!
What has Skywest done to better the profession??

737

I have known ArticFlier for about 20 years now (don't hold that against him), and I would rather have him on my side than you any day - with or without ALPA. ArticFlier has probably been doing this longer than you, and he does have a clue. Stick to things you're good at - not having a clue.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

[Serious question]ALERT[/Serious question]

Has the Delta pilot always supported the Comair pilot? Or has the Delta pilot been know to stab them in the back.............or any other union pilot stabbed another in the back for that matter?

Your support for another group is your choice, however, you may not want to be in a glass house when doing so.

AF,
The Delta MEC has filed 3 separate grievances against the ASA and CMR pilots - and they never consulted either the ASA or CMR MECs prior to filing those grievances. 2 were scope grievances - CMR shuttle flying and ASA BAE146 flying. The third was a grievance over ASA and CMR pilots getting the same travel priority on Delta.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Just want to point out for the sake of accuracy that you and the other Delta pilots had no choice on that one. You can stop acting like a hero for "voluntarily" paying something you were required to pay. And many of your brethren are still in bad standing with the union for refusing to pay it.

D@mn!..... 2 posts in a row that I agree with JP on..... the world is coming to an end.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

ASA yr 14.....................$80/hr
DL 3rd yr M88 f/o...........$79/hr
Most junior f/o on payroll is now ATL 7ER f/o (2nd yr pay 7ER f/o.....$77/hr)

Wow John, I'm speechless, you really showed me....It took you 14 years to make what a 3rd year f/o makes at a BK carrier. Things must be better for you at ASA, with all the bitching you do I can see why you want to stay......Carry on!
Of course with all that lawsuit money you'll be a millionaire!

737

No 737, your not speechless, your just an idiot and you can't follow directions. Let's try it one more time. Take 14th. ATR pay, then move the rate to 15th. year ATR pay, then move to 700 pay. Then take all the money lost, and let me know what you come up with. Why would you compare 3rd. year MD80 pay to 14th. yr. ATR pay - you do understand how longevity works don't you????? Try it again and let's see if you can get it right this time.....

 

[John Pennekamp]

D@mn!..... 2 posts in a row that I agree with JP on..... the world is coming to an end.....

Look, our views may be diametrically opposed, but I can call a spade a spade. We do not disagree on everything, and I can even admit that often when I disagree with you, you make many good points. It's when you go off on a rampage about how ALPA is to blame for all the troubles in the industry that you lose me. We both know that the picture is much larger than that, but you hate ALPA and let it affect your logic sometimes.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Just a few corrections there! All the Comair pilots knew that this was going on! The Comair pilots did not try to remove their ALPA reps over this issue! It was about this same time that they came up with the RJDC law suit against the Delta pilots trying to clean out our contract of what scope we had! They made a senority grab [/b]when they were purchased[/b], they fuc$ed the Delta pilots with the no resignation deal, then they filed a billion dollar lawsuit against us to force Delta to give them more and more of our flying! This would have resulted in more job losses at Delta! You Comair pukes know what you did! At least have the balls to tell it correctly!

Are you a complete moron? Delta bought Comair in what, late 1999-early 2000? The RJDC lawsuit came right after the failed PID in 2000. This was about a year before 9/11 and LONG before Delta started furloughing. The issue of the CMR MEC fefusing to fight their management over the furlough issue came in 2004.

And by the way, it's true. The MEC made a bad judgement call, but at the time they were faced with the decision of using THEIR negotiating capitol to help a group who REPEATEDLY and PUBLICLY refused to use theirs to return the favor, or not fighting it and sending the DMEC a message that what goes around comes around. They made a bad choice and perpetuated the bad blood between the two groups. Then the high and mighty Delta pilots decided to teach (how did you put it?) those little "Comair pukes" who the boss is by refusing to hire any of their pilots in the future and cutting inside deals with the management they are in bed with during the bankruptcy to destroy the airline.

Yes, now you're all screwed. I think you all need to grow up and start working together against management, not fighting each other like naughty little kids who can't play nice in the sandbox.

 

[ArcticFlier]

Sounds like some may have a bit of a selective memory.




Hey Joe,

You gonna be out at KWVI this May? How's your brother?

 

[Tomct]

Sounds to me like the ultimate "take it in the shorts", but if you're fine with that, so am I. It's your ass on the line right now. Not mine...........yet. With all due respect, however, how long have you guys gone without a contract? You've already taken it in the shorts, IMHO, possibly with more to come. I hope not.

Our pilot group may have sold out for growth in your opinion, but at least I (among many others) can say I'm trying to do something about it. Probably doesn't help you to feel any better, but I don't live my life caring what others think of me or the pilot group I'm associated with. I just try to do the best I can each day for that same group, and that includes trying to stop some of the nonsense that's been going on here for the last six years. You can see that for what it is, or continue to crap on everyone that doesn't quite see eye to eye with you. Your choice. But the sooner that we all start pulling from the same end of the rope, the better. It's the only way we're going to get back what we've lost since 2001.

Pointing fingers at each other has to end.....................It has a divisive quality to it that turns off many of the newbies and fencesitters that are looking for a reason to shun ALPA. We've been through three(?) ALPA drives (going on four), a Teamsters drive, and an inhouse drive since I've been here. Each and every one of the ALPA drives failed in large part because of the caustic nature of the drive in it's final stages. One failed by a measly six votes. The ballots came in a few days too late. As a side note, the Teamsters drive failed pretty badly as I remember. I don't recall exactly why, but I know I was turned off by the strong arming going on in front of the hangar in PSP by Vinnie and Guido (no offense to my brothers from Jersey). "HEY! Youse guys gonna vote Teamsters, right?" Direct quote.

I'm glad you guys are holding the line. I don't want to see the ultimate solution you speak of happen. Having said that, the trend reversal needs to start somewhere. Will it happen with you guys? Maybe. Will it happen with us? Probably not. Even if we vote in ALPA tomorrow, it's going to be a long time before we can get back to where we were pre 9/11, and that's if things go swimmingly. That won't happen and we all know that. SGU ain't going to roll over just 'cause. You guys know that.

Artic...I am glad for those of you that are trying to grab the same end of the rope to make things better, I along with the majority of the ASA pilot group appreciate that! I am only referring to those that are so....giddy to be getting things that rightfully aren't theirs that is a problem. No, I am NOT happy about the Comair airplanes. It is rather frustrating to be stabbed in the back...TWICE by your Union brothers...like kids fighting over scraps at the dinner table. We all need to get things together and STOP linning JA's pockets with all the cash. I'm not saying that I want Delta pay.... but the majority of what we want has ZERO...I'll say it again ZERO cost to the company. I believe that the meeting with Prader and the board on the 4th will do some good....I HOPE! Sorry if you took offense to what I said...you are one of the good ones...I know, you have been pushing the Union for quite some time. Thanks and good luck!

 

[doh]

Are you a complete moron? Delta bought Comair in what, late 1999-early 2000? The RJDC lawsuit came right after the failed PID in 2000. This was about a year before 9/11 and LONG before Delta started furloughing. The issue of the CMR MEC fefusing to fight their management over the furlough issue came in 2004.

And by the way, it's true. The MEC made a bad judgement call, but at the time they were faced with the decision of using THEIR negotiating capitol to help a group who REPEATEDLY and PUBLICLY refused to use theirs to return the favor, or not fighting it and sending the DMEC a message that what goes around comes around. They made a bad choice and perpetuated the bad blood between the two groups. Then the high and mighty Delta pilots decided to teach (how did you put it?) those little "Comair pukes" who the boss is by refusing to hire any of their pilots in the future and cutting inside deals with the management they are in bed with during the bankruptcy to destroy the airline.

Yes, now you're all screwed. I think you all need to grow up and start working together against management, not fighting each other like naughty little kids who can't play nice in the sandbox.

And on top of that, I had no idea it was happening until it was told to me after the fact. That is the truth.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Look, our views may be diametrically opposed, but I can call a spade a spade. We do not disagree on everything, and I can even admit that often when I disagree with you, you make many good points. It's when you go off on a rampage about how ALPA is to blame for all the troubles in the industry that you lose me. We both know that the picture is much larger than that, but you hate ALPA and let it affect your logic sometimes.

I actually admire people who call a spade a spade. Many people who get involved heavily in ALPA may want to call a spade a spade, but politics dictate that they don't.

ALPA isn't totally to blame for the troubles in the industry. Deregulation is the single biggest driver of the problems in the industry - and ALPA isn't to blame for that. Jimmy Carter gets the credit there. I bet he got the AFL-CIO endorsement in 1976.

911, underfunded pensions, rising health care costs (10-12%per year), expensive inefficient security, and rising oil prices have added to the problem. Again ALPA isn't to blame there - although the libertarian/conservative in me thinks that endorsing Democrats will only make things worse.

ALPA's portion of the blame lies with it's inability to address long term strategic planning in terms of scope and prevention of bidding within a brand. Lot's of lip service, but when it comes time do something we get more MidAtlantic/Compass alter-egos at lower rates than we currently make.

I don't blame ALPA for everything, I just don't see ALPA as doing anything different to reverse the trend. I also don't see many of the membership really caring or even bothering to understand the issues and participate. Therefor I have simply given up on ALPA. As I have said for sometime now, I hope you can prove me wrong and actually point to ALPA changing it's way.... I won't be holding my breath however...

I don't "hate" ALPA, I just don't think it is effective. Yes my posts and my opinions can be strong, but hopefully it gets some people thinking.... that is the point.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Sounds like some may have a bit of a selective memory.

That's a big part of it, and now it has just become one big pi$$ing contest.

Hey Joe,

You gonna be out at KWVI this May? How's your brother?

He's doing good - taking his COMM. ride (finally) in 1500k next week. I hope to be in WVI for the airshow. If you want to come out for Sun&Fun let me know...

 

[ArcticFlier]

About dang time........................When did I do his private? '90?

We usually make the fly-in at least on Friday and Saturday. Dad and I will probably be judging again this year. What are the dates for Sun-n-Fun? I suppose I could look it up, but if you've got 'em handy, I'll get 'er written down.

BTW, I was looking through some books the other day and came across Jim Nissen. Do you remember him? He flew the JN4D out at WVI every year. I rode around the pattern with him in '90 in the Jenny.

 

[JoeMerchant]

About dang time........................When did I do his private? '90?

We usually make the fly-in at least on Friday and Saturday. Dad and I will probably be judging again this year. What are the dates for Sun-n-Fun? I suppose I could look it up, but if you've got 'em handy, I'll get 'er written down.

BTW, I was looking through some books the other day and came across Jim Nissen. Do you remember him? He flew the JN4D out at WVI every year. I rode around the pattern with him in '90 in the Jenny.

'90 sounds about right. He went the grease monkey route - A&P and IA. Don's working with him. Sun&Fun is 4/17-23. I am looking to go somewhere 19th-21st. I do remember Jim and the Jenny - ahhh... the good old days..... makes me want Carne Asada con todo from Hectors......

 

[ArcticFlier]

Followed by the obligatory food coma on the way to FAT on the dual cross country!

Sorry for the thread hijack................

Normal Speed,

 

[John Pennekamp]

I actually admire people who call a spade a spade. Many people who get involved heavily in ALPA may want to call a spade a spade, but politics dictate that they don't.

ALPA isn't totally to blame for the troubles in the industry. Deregulation is the single biggest driver of the problems in the industry - and ALPA isn't to blame for that. Jimmy Carter gets the credit there. I bet he got the AFL-CIO endorsement in 1976.

911, underfunded pensions, rising health care costs (10-12%per year), expensive inefficient security, and rising oil prices have added to the problem. Again ALPA isn't to blame there - although the libertarian/conservative in me thinks that endorsing Democrats will only make things worse.

ALPA's portion of the blame lies with it's inability to address long term strategic planning in terms of scope and prevention of bidding within a brand. Lot's of lip service, but when it comes time do something we get more MidAtlantic/Compass alter-egos at lower rates than we currently make.

I don't blame ALPA for everything, I just don't see ALPA as doing anything different to reverse the trend. I also don't see many of the membership really caring or even bothering to understand the issues and participate. Therefor I have simply given up on ALPA. As I have said for sometime now, I hope you can prove me wrong and actually point to ALPA changing it's way.... I won't be holding my breath however...

I don't "hate" ALPA, I just don't think it is effective. Yes my posts and my opinions can be strong, but hopefully it gets some people thinking.... that is the point.....

Well since you and I are having such a love fest here, let me tell you this.

You're right about deregulation. And ALPA (just like the legacy carriers) stuck its head in the sand and refused to adjust to the post-deregulation world. And it's still that way today. ALPA's long term planning is non-existent. I would blame its makeup for that the most. ALPA is not a union, it's an ASSOCIATION of independent MECs. A patchwork quilt. The down side of this is that you have 100 different MECs fighting for their piece of the pie, and a complete turnover every 4 years. This makes the union completely reactionary on the national level.

Many will point to the MCF and call that strategic planning. What they fail to realize is that it takes more than a huge war chest to get some respect. Duane was a weasel who would kiss your baby then steal his lollipop and give it to his mainline buddies. He led a lot of the B.S. lip service we got here at the regional level because he had no respect nor use for us. Prater, on the other hand, knows that it takes an effort at the grassroots to build a union. He looked good at first, but seems to be caving into pressure from ALPA staff and the "A" carriers, and is falling back into the "pretty face" we've seen from so many ALPA presidents. This is disappointing.

I can't convince you ALPA will change. I'm not even convinced.

And I agree that the membership doesn't care. Out rank and file pilots have done NOTHING to support the negotiating committee. By support, I mean putting economic pressure on the company. We still have pilots tripping over themselves to get flights out on time. These are the same ones who bitch that the contract is taking so long. As you said, they don't understand, and they don't care to. They just want their reps to wave a magic wand and make it happen.

In that vein, I've said over and over that ALPA is the membership, not the president and officers. Bearing that in mind, maybe you're right. A union is only as strong as its members, and if the members aren't there, neither is the union. Until the members can be bothered to educate themselves on the issues and take action, our union will continue to be impotent.

Am I ready to give up on ALPA? I would have to turn that question around. If the union isn't doing anything for you, then you're no better or worse off than not having one at all. You're just paying 1.95% of your paycheck (100% tax deductable) for an insurance policy.

Even if ALPA doesn't get us a contract, scope, and a better QOL, they're still there for me when I screw up and get the blue chair stare from a chief pilot. They're also there for me when I lose my medical because my EKG had a "blip". For me that's worth the money. SAPA or no union at all can't deliver that.

 

[HA25]

We really need to work on some kind of transition to a national seniority number... All pilots working for a union carrier would get a seniority number dated on the day they first started work for any union carrier.. that number would then transfer with them to where ever they go..

This would shift the supply/demand curve in the favor of experienced pilots who then could play airlines against each other, rather than take the attitude that they're married to their airline and have to deal with what ever BS it dishes out at them.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Ok, I'll bite on the love fest-

During the past 5 decades, America was in the Industrial Age. However, begining in 1989 (arguably) America started to transition to the Information Age. (Friedman, 2005?) ALPA based its entire strategy on the Industrial Age where a job is a job for life and seniority rules. Unfortunately that strategy does not work in the Information Age when business changes rapidly and employees are compelled to change jobs much more often.

ALPA National must change its strategy. We cannot do it alone at the local level. So far I have not seen any evidence of ALPA National trying to change. Until then, it is every pilot group for itself. I'm not saying I agree with that stand, but it is the reality that I believe exists.