To: ASA PILOTS

[Tomct]

Sounds to me like the ultimate "take it in the shorts", but if you're fine with that, so am I. It's your ass on the line right now. Not mine...........yet. With all due respect, however, how long have you guys gone without a contract? You've already taken it in the shorts, IMHO, possibly with more to come. I hope not.

Our pilot group may have sold out for growth in your opinion, but at least I (among many others) can say I'm trying to do something about it. Probably doesn't help you to feel any better, but I don't live my life caring what others think of me or the pilot group I'm associated with. I just try to do the best I can each day for that same group, and that includes trying to stop some of the nonsense that's been going on here for the last six years. You can see that for what it is, or continue to crap on everyone that doesn't quite see eye to eye with you. Your choice. But the sooner that we all start pulling from the same end of the rope, the better. It's the only way we're going to get back what we've lost since 2001.

Pointing fingers at each other has to end.....................It has a divisive quality to it that turns off many of the newbies and fencesitters that are looking for a reason to shun ALPA. We've been through three(?) ALPA drives (going on four), a Teamsters drive, and an inhouse drive since I've been here. Each and every one of the ALPA drives failed in large part because of the caustic nature of the drive in it's final stages. One failed by a measly six votes. The ballots came in a few days too late. As a side note, the Teamsters drive failed pretty badly as I remember. I don't recall exactly why, but I know I was turned off by the strong arming going on in front of the hangar in PSP by Vinnie and Guido (no offense to my brothers from Jersey). "HEY! Youse guys gonna vote Teamsters, right?" Direct quote.

I'm glad you guys are holding the line. I don't want to see the ultimate solution you speak of happen. Having said that, the trend reversal needs to start somewhere. Will it happen with you guys? Maybe. Will it happen with us? Probably not. Even if we vote in ALPA tomorrow, it's going to be a long time before we can get back to where we were pre 9/11, and that's if things go swimmingly. That won't happen and we all know that. SGU ain't going to roll over just 'cause. You guys know that.

Artic...I am glad for those of you that are trying to grab the same end of the rope to make things better, I along with the majority of the ASA pilot group appreciate that! I am only referring to those that are so....giddy to be getting things that rightfully aren't theirs that is a problem. No, I am NOT happy about the Comair airplanes. It is rather frustrating to be stabbed in the back...TWICE by your Union brothers...like kids fighting over scraps at the dinner table. We all need to get things together and STOP linning JA's pockets with all the cash. I'm not saying that I want Delta pay.... but the majority of what we want has ZERO...I'll say it again ZERO cost to the company. I believe that the meeting with Prader and the board on the 4th will do some good....I HOPE! Sorry if you took offense to what I said...you are one of the good ones...I know, you have been pushing the Union for quite some time. Thanks and good luck!

 

[doh]

Are you a complete moron? Delta bought Comair in what, late 1999-early 2000? The RJDC lawsuit came right after the failed PID in 2000. This was about a year before 9/11 and LONG before Delta started furloughing. The issue of the CMR MEC fefusing to fight their management over the furlough issue came in 2004.

And by the way, it's true. The MEC made a bad judgement call, but at the time they were faced with the decision of using THEIR negotiating capitol to help a group who REPEATEDLY and PUBLICLY refused to use theirs to return the favor, or not fighting it and sending the DMEC a message that what goes around comes around. They made a bad choice and perpetuated the bad blood between the two groups. Then the high and mighty Delta pilots decided to teach (how did you put it?) those little "Comair pukes" who the boss is by refusing to hire any of their pilots in the future and cutting inside deals with the management they are in bed with during the bankruptcy to destroy the airline.

Yes, now you're all screwed. I think you all need to grow up and start working together against management, not fighting each other like naughty little kids who can't play nice in the sandbox.

And on top of that, I had no idea it was happening until it was told to me after the fact. That is the truth.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Look, our views may be diametrically opposed, but I can call a spade a spade. We do not disagree on everything, and I can even admit that often when I disagree with you, you make many good points. It's when you go off on a rampage about how ALPA is to blame for all the troubles in the industry that you lose me. We both know that the picture is much larger than that, but you hate ALPA and let it affect your logic sometimes.

I actually admire people who call a spade a spade. Many people who get involved heavily in ALPA may want to call a spade a spade, but politics dictate that they don't.

ALPA isn't totally to blame for the troubles in the industry. Deregulation is the single biggest driver of the problems in the industry - and ALPA isn't to blame for that. Jimmy Carter gets the credit there. I bet he got the AFL-CIO endorsement in 1976.

911, underfunded pensions, rising health care costs (10-12%per year), expensive inefficient security, and rising oil prices have added to the problem. Again ALPA isn't to blame there - although the libertarian/conservative in me thinks that endorsing Democrats will only make things worse.

ALPA's portion of the blame lies with it's inability to address long term strategic planning in terms of scope and prevention of bidding within a brand. Lot's of lip service, but when it comes time do something we get more MidAtlantic/Compass alter-egos at lower rates than we currently make.

I don't blame ALPA for everything, I just don't see ALPA as doing anything different to reverse the trend. I also don't see many of the membership really caring or even bothering to understand the issues and participate. Therefor I have simply given up on ALPA. As I have said for sometime now, I hope you can prove me wrong and actually point to ALPA changing it's way.... I won't be holding my breath however...

I don't "hate" ALPA, I just don't think it is effective. Yes my posts and my opinions can be strong, but hopefully it gets some people thinking.... that is the point.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Sounds like some may have a bit of a selective memory.

That's a big part of it, and now it has just become one big pi$$ing contest.

Hey Joe,

You gonna be out at KWVI this May? How's your brother?

He's doing good - taking his COMM. ride (finally) in 1500k next week. I hope to be in WVI for the airshow. If you want to come out for Sun&Fun let me know...

 

[ArcticFlier]

About dang time........................When did I do his private? '90?

We usually make the fly-in at least on Friday and Saturday. Dad and I will probably be judging again this year. What are the dates for Sun-n-Fun? I suppose I could look it up, but if you've got 'em handy, I'll get 'er written down.

BTW, I was looking through some books the other day and came across Jim Nissen. Do you remember him? He flew the JN4D out at WVI every year. I rode around the pattern with him in '90 in the Jenny.

 

[JoeMerchant]

About dang time........................When did I do his private? '90?

We usually make the fly-in at least on Friday and Saturday. Dad and I will probably be judging again this year. What are the dates for Sun-n-Fun? I suppose I could look it up, but if you've got 'em handy, I'll get 'er written down.

BTW, I was looking through some books the other day and came across Jim Nissen. Do you remember him? He flew the JN4D out at WVI every year. I rode around the pattern with him in '90 in the Jenny.

'90 sounds about right. He went the grease monkey route - A&P and IA. Don's working with him. Sun&Fun is 4/17-23. I am looking to go somewhere 19th-21st. I do remember Jim and the Jenny - ahhh... the good old days..... makes me want Carne Asada con todo from Hectors......

 

[ArcticFlier]

Followed by the obligatory food coma on the way to FAT on the dual cross country!

Sorry for the thread hijack................

Normal Speed,

 

[John Pennekamp]

I actually admire people who call a spade a spade. Many people who get involved heavily in ALPA may want to call a spade a spade, but politics dictate that they don't.

ALPA isn't totally to blame for the troubles in the industry. Deregulation is the single biggest driver of the problems in the industry - and ALPA isn't to blame for that. Jimmy Carter gets the credit there. I bet he got the AFL-CIO endorsement in 1976.

911, underfunded pensions, rising health care costs (10-12%per year), expensive inefficient security, and rising oil prices have added to the problem. Again ALPA isn't to blame there - although the libertarian/conservative in me thinks that endorsing Democrats will only make things worse.

ALPA's portion of the blame lies with it's inability to address long term strategic planning in terms of scope and prevention of bidding within a brand. Lot's of lip service, but when it comes time do something we get more MidAtlantic/Compass alter-egos at lower rates than we currently make.

I don't blame ALPA for everything, I just don't see ALPA as doing anything different to reverse the trend. I also don't see many of the membership really caring or even bothering to understand the issues and participate. Therefor I have simply given up on ALPA. As I have said for sometime now, I hope you can prove me wrong and actually point to ALPA changing it's way.... I won't be holding my breath however...

I don't "hate" ALPA, I just don't think it is effective. Yes my posts and my opinions can be strong, but hopefully it gets some people thinking.... that is the point.....

Well since you and I are having such a love fest here, let me tell you this.

You're right about deregulation. And ALPA (just like the legacy carriers) stuck its head in the sand and refused to adjust to the post-deregulation world. And it's still that way today. ALPA's long term planning is non-existent. I would blame its makeup for that the most. ALPA is not a union, it's an ASSOCIATION of independent MECs. A patchwork quilt. The down side of this is that you have 100 different MECs fighting for their piece of the pie, and a complete turnover every 4 years. This makes the union completely reactionary on the national level.

Many will point to the MCF and call that strategic planning. What they fail to realize is that it takes more than a huge war chest to get some respect. Duane was a weasel who would kiss your baby then steal his lollipop and give it to his mainline buddies. He led a lot of the B.S. lip service we got here at the regional level because he had no respect nor use for us. Prater, on the other hand, knows that it takes an effort at the grassroots to build a union. He looked good at first, but seems to be caving into pressure from ALPA staff and the "A" carriers, and is falling back into the "pretty face" we've seen from so many ALPA presidents. This is disappointing.

I can't convince you ALPA will change. I'm not even convinced.

And I agree that the membership doesn't care. Out rank and file pilots have done NOTHING to support the negotiating committee. By support, I mean putting economic pressure on the company. We still have pilots tripping over themselves to get flights out on time. These are the same ones who bitch that the contract is taking so long. As you said, they don't understand, and they don't care to. They just want their reps to wave a magic wand and make it happen.

In that vein, I've said over and over that ALPA is the membership, not the president and officers. Bearing that in mind, maybe you're right. A union is only as strong as its members, and if the members aren't there, neither is the union. Until the members can be bothered to educate themselves on the issues and take action, our union will continue to be impotent.

Am I ready to give up on ALPA? I would have to turn that question around. If the union isn't doing anything for you, then you're no better or worse off than not having one at all. You're just paying 1.95% of your paycheck (100% tax deductable) for an insurance policy.

Even if ALPA doesn't get us a contract, scope, and a better QOL, they're still there for me when I screw up and get the blue chair stare from a chief pilot. They're also there for me when I lose my medical because my EKG had a "blip". For me that's worth the money. SAPA or no union at all can't deliver that.

 

[HA25]

We really need to work on some kind of transition to a national seniority number... All pilots working for a union carrier would get a seniority number dated on the day they first started work for any union carrier.. that number would then transfer with them to where ever they go..

This would shift the supply/demand curve in the favor of experienced pilots who then could play airlines against each other, rather than take the attitude that they're married to their airline and have to deal with what ever BS it dishes out at them.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Ok, I'll bite on the love fest-

During the past 5 decades, America was in the Industrial Age. However, begining in 1989 (arguably) America started to transition to the Information Age. (Friedman, 2005?) ALPA based its entire strategy on the Industrial Age where a job is a job for life and seniority rules. Unfortunately that strategy does not work in the Information Age when business changes rapidly and employees are compelled to change jobs much more often.

ALPA National must change its strategy. We cannot do it alone at the local level. So far I have not seen any evidence of ALPA National trying to change. Until then, it is every pilot group for itself. I'm not saying I agree with that stand, but it is the reality that I believe exists.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Ok, I'll bite on the love fest-

During the past 5 decades, America was in the Industrial Age. However, begining in 1989 (arguably) America started to transition to the Information Age. (Friedman, 2005?) ALPA based its entire strategy on the Industrial Age where a job is a job for life and seniority rules. Unfortunately that strategy does not work in the Information Age when business changes rapidly and employees are compelled to change jobs much more often.

ALPA National must change its strategy. We cannot do it alone at the local level. So far I have not seen any evidence of ALPA National trying to change. Until then, it is every pilot group for itself. I'm not saying I agree with that stand, but it is the reality that I believe exists.

Very well said. Right now it is every group for themselves. That isn't the best way for a national union to procede, but it is the path we are on. Until there is a true change, not just talk, we must all procede with our own interests in mind.

 

[JoeMerchant]

We really need to work on some kind of transition to a national seniority number... All pilots working for a union carrier would get a seniority number dated on the day they first started work for any union carrier.. that number would then transfer with them to where ever they go..

This would shift the supply/demand curve in the favor of experienced pilots who then could play airlines against each other, rather than take the attitude that they're married to their airline and have to deal with what ever BS it dishes out at them.

In theory you are absolutely correct. However you have to start with single groups on each brand property (AA, DAL, NWA, UAL, USA, etc.) We can't even do that. We had a chance to do that at DAL, but the mainline group didn't want it. If we can't achieve single groups on each brand property, then there is no way of doing it nationally.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Well since you and I are having such a love fest here, let me tell you this.

You're right about deregulation. And ALPA (just like the legacy carriers) stuck its head in the sand and refused to adjust to the post-deregulation world. And it's still that way today. ALPA's long term planning is non-existent. I would blame its makeup for that the most. ALPA is not a union, it's an ASSOCIATION of independent MECs. A patchwork quilt. The down side of this is that you have 100 different MECs fighting for their piece of the pie, and a complete turnover every 4 years. This makes the union completely reactionary on the national level.

Many will point to the MCF and call that strategic planning. What they fail to realize is that it takes more than a huge war chest to get some respect. Duane was a weasel who would kiss your baby then steal his lollipop and give it to his mainline buddies. He led a lot of the B.S. lip service we got here at the regional level because he had no respect nor use for us. Prater, on the other hand, knows that it takes an effort at the grassroots to build a union. He looked good at first, but seems to be caving into pressure from ALPA staff and the "A" carriers, and is falling back into the "pretty face" we've seen from so many ALPA presidents. This is disappointing.

I can't convince you ALPA will change. I'm not even convinced.

And I agree that the membership doesn't care. Out rank and file pilots have done NOTHING to support the negotiating committee. By support, I mean putting economic pressure on the company. We still have pilots tripping over themselves to get flights out on time. These are the same ones who bitch that the contract is taking so long. As you said, they don't understand, and they don't care to. They just want their reps to wave a magic wand and make it happen.

In that vein, I've said over and over that ALPA is the membership, not the president and officers. Bearing that in mind, maybe you're right. A union is only as strong as its members, and if the members aren't there, neither is the union. Until the members can be bothered to educate themselves on the issues and take action, our union will continue to be impotent.

Am I ready to give up on ALPA? I would have to turn that question around. If the union isn't doing anything for you, then you're no better or worse off than not having one at all. You're just paying 1.95% of your paycheck (100% tax deductable) for an insurance policy.

Even if ALPA doesn't get us a contract, scope, and a better QOL, they're still there for me when I screw up and get the blue chair stare from a chief pilot. They're also there for me when I lose my medical because my EKG had a "blip". For me that's worth the money. SAPA or no union at all can't deliver that.

Darn, you're not giving me much to work with here. I can't argue with much you said.

Let me throw this one at you. If those of us at the regional level feel that ALPA needs to change, how about using a little "self-help" within ALPA. The "little guys", or those of us who are being used as whipsaws, now make up almost half of ALPA. How would ALPA act if every regional started a decertification drive based on changing things. There are a lot of people who may start coming around if ALPA was in danger of losing almost half of it's membership.

ALPA is a political animal that needs money to feed itself. Like managements, a little financial pressure could change it's mind....

 

[wms]

We really need to work on some kind of transition to a national seniority number... All pilots working for a union carrier would get a seniority number dated on the day they first started work for any union carrier.. that number would then transfer with them to where ever they go..

This would shift the supply/demand curve in the favor of experienced pilots who then could play airlines against each other, rather than take the attitude that they're married to their airline and have to deal with what ever BS it dishes out at them.

So when a poorly run company goes out of business, the senior guys there could flow down and bump you out of a good company on to the street. No thanks.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

WMS-

That is a legitimate concern. How about making pay and bennies more in the first seven years, then not increase much at all after that. Think about that before teaaring the idea apart. A pilot at company A would lose his/her job and get a job at company B. Compensation would start at a reasonable rate and increase significantly quickly. The pilot would still have started at the bottom for bidding, but I do not believe that he or she should bump others already there just because of a national seniority list.

The very same seniority a pilot enjoys is the one that cripples him/her from making a move to another healthy carrier due mainly to compensation issues.

 

[79%N1]

Guys..............THIS IS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN!!!! Lets stop wasting our breath.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Ok, I'll bite on the love fest-

During the past 5 decades, America was in the Industrial Age. However, begining in 1989 (arguably) America started to transition to the Information Age. (Friedman, 2005?) ALPA based its entire strategy on the Industrial Age where a job is a job for life and seniority rules. Unfortunately that strategy does not work in the Information Age when business changes rapidly and employees are compelled to change jobs much more often.

ALPA National must change its strategy. We cannot do it alone at the local level. So far I have not seen any evidence of ALPA National trying to change. Until then, it is every pilot group for itself. I'm not saying I agree with that stand, but it is the reality that I believe exists.

You are 100% correct except that it's not just ALPA, it's every union who thinks that way.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Darn, you're not giving me much to work with here. I can't argue with much you said.

Let me throw this one at you. If those of us at the regional level feel that ALPA needs to change, how about using a little "self-help" within ALPA. The "little guys", or those of us who are being used as whipsaws, now make up almost half of ALPA. How would ALPA act if every regional started a decertification drive based on changing things. There are a lot of people who may start coming around if ALPA was in danger of losing almost half of it's membership.

ALPA is a political animal that needs money to feed itself. Like managements, a little financial pressure could change it's mind....

I'd say it would probably get their attention very quickly even if one airline attempted to decertify. Especially one as large as ASA. This is proven in how much money ALPA is spending to go after Skywest.

Perhaps if this contract goes down in flames, some of us will begin to shake that tree.

 

[VeeOne]

Any word on the Comair T/A and where their payscales fall in line with ASA's? Just wondering if we were undercut or put on par with.

 

[~~~^~~~]

A little over on the 50 and a little under on the 70. There are charts floating around from the Comair road show.

 

[VeeOne]

A little over on the 50 and a little under on the 70. There are charts floating around from the Comair road show.

Great- something else to help our cause, huh? Guys- between Skywest and Comair I'm not really expecting a wage increase on anything.

 

[HoserASA]

Great- something else to help our cause, huh? Guys- between Skywest and Comair I'm not really expecting a wage increase on anything.

Actually, the company has moved to a raise on the ATR/CR200, and a small one on the 700. Just not quite enough yet though.

Hoser

 

[VeeOne]

Actually, the company has moved to a raise on the ATR/CR200, and a small one on the 700. Just not quite enough yet though.

Hoser

At least we're in the black though- We've stood our ground and haven't snagged aircraft in exchange for concessions. I just want this done........

 

[acarpe3448]

Are you a complete moron? Delta bought Comair in what, late 1999-early 2000? The RJDC lawsuit came right after the failed PID in 2000. This was about a year before 9/11 and LONG before Delta started furloughing. The issue of the CMR MEC fefusing to fight their management over the furlough issue came in 2004.

And by the way, it's true. The MEC made a bad judgement call, but at the time they were faced with the decision of using THEIR negotiating capitol to help a group who REPEATEDLY and PUBLICLY refused to use theirs to return the favor, or not fighting it and sending the DMEC a message that what goes around comes around. They made a bad choice and perpetuated the bad blood between the two groups. Then the high and mighty Delta pilots decided to teach (how did you put it?) those little "Comair pukes" who the boss is by refusing to hire any of their pilots in the future and cutting inside deals with the management they are in bed with during the bankruptcy to destroy the airline.

Yes, now you're all screwed. I think you all need to grow up and start working together against management, not fighting each other like naughty little kids who can't play nice in the sandbox.

Bottom line Comair pilots in writing said NO TO DELTA PILOTS FLYING AT COMAIR UNLESS THEY RESIGN! However, if you rid Delta of scope and let Comair have all the flying they want (at a lower rate than Delta) and let Comair have as many seats as they want(737 etc!!) then our concerns about the issue might not be so large! We can post that letter here if you like! No skin off my back now puke! We have no Comair pilots coming over here! You would get a chilly reception!

 

[John Pennekamp]

Bottom line Comair pilots in writing said NO TO DELTA PILOTS FLYING AT COMAIR UNLESS THEY RESIGN! However, if you rid Delta of scope and let Comair have all the flying they want (at a lower rate than Delta) and let Comair have as many seats as they want(737 etc!!) then our concerns about the issue might not be so large! We can post that letter here if you like! No skin off my back now puke! We have no Comair pilots coming over here! You would get a chilly reception!

If you were admitting you were wrong I must have missed it. Before we address any other or your stupid statements, you might want to go ahead and do that and save any shred of credibility you may think you have.

Now, let's see. You above statement makes no sense. After reading some of the stuff you and 737 "Pylt" put up, I'm finding it hard to believe you guys all have "advanced degrees". Clearly not English majors.

Please site the language from the RJDC lawsuit seeking to abolish scope. Until you find that and quote it for us, we have nothing further to discuss on that topic (here's a hint, it doesn't exist). Looks like you lose again.

Oh, and by the way, I don't work for Comair and have never given one dollar to the RJDC, little puke.