To all members in good standing of IBT Local 1108 that frequent Flightinfo.com:

[1folinepilot]

Dear Mat,

I personally supported the union drive you guys put forth. Without a union contract we all would be stuck in the right seat at year 3 making $42,000. I understand the need for a Contract with FLOPS. That being said.....

....you came onto this board with a very decent post, asking people to keep the discussion in-house (although I disagree with you on that). You seemed very professional and I detected a lot of sincerity in your words. THEN...you didn't shut up. You proceeded to post several more times, taking pot shots at, and making personal attacks on those who didn't agree with you. I don't care who shot first......you are in a position of leadership and that negates your right as a professional do retaliate. THEN.....you posted THIS THREAT to your fellow union members.....

I will promise you one thing. We will find out who you are (we always do). And when we do, I will personally insure all of our members know who you are and what you have done to work against their best interests.

Mat.....threatening your fellow union members was the most irresponsible and unprofessional thing I have seen in years. While I hope you guys do eventually find common ground and vote to ratify a decent Contract, I suspect this type of threat from a Union Boss might be the downfall of things of a while. Perhaps you can apologize to these guys for your "Mobster Threat" and they will forgive you, but I personally could never rally behind such a leader. Again, good luck to all of you guys. Your vote affects all of us who fly. Peace.

Kyle Bryant (no anons here, dude)

***************************************************************

Way to go Mat, Threatening your fellow union members to get this contract signed????? How much is Ricki paying you and Rick under the table to get this thing signed?

 

[netjetwife]

....I would still be willing to suck it up for 2 or maybe even 3 years, just to have the protections, but 5 years is way too long. In my opinion, this TA is going to hurt the industry, and practically kill the IBT's chance of recruiting any other pilot group, if it is ratified. I want a contact as much as the next guy, but I am willing hold out for something better. If NJ can reject a TA, elect a new MEC, form a new local, get a new TA, and ratify it all in less than a year, we should at least be able to obtain and ratify a new TA, regardless of the doom and gloom pictures that are being painted... or maybe I'm just too optimistic.

From my outside perspective, this is pretty much how I view the situation, as well. And I don't think you have unrealistic hopes that a new TA could be agreed upon within a year. That seems entirely feasible to me. If pay truly couldn't be improved, then shortening the duration and/or making adjustments to some of the other lower-cost items shouldn't take many meetings.

Personally speaking, I think a shorter length CBA would be in the company's best interest, too. As others have mentioned, motivation -- or the lack thereof -- can play a pivotal role in performance. It's far better to give your front line, face of the company employees something to look forward to in the near future; rather than having them resentfully feel like the days are dragging and the next 5 years are going to crawl by.

Regardless of how the pilot-group ultimately votes, talking it all over now is the right thing to do. It isn't an easy decision and there's a lot to consider. Some might even find themselves going back and forth for awhile as they look at all the angles. In the end, your group needs to form a consensus and move forward together. Respectfully allowing each member to voice concerns and/or ask questions now will protect your unity whichever path the majority chooses to take. Best Wishes, NJW

 

[B19 Flyer]

Admit it for once, will you??????

From my outside perspective, this is pretty much how I view the situation, as well. And I don't think you have unrealistic hopes that a new TA could be agreed upon within a year. That seems entirely feasible to me. If pay truly couldn't be improved, then shortening the duration and/or making adjustments to some of the other lower-cost items shouldn't take many meetings.

Personally speaking, I think a shorter length CBA would be in the company's best interest, too. As others have mentioned, motivation -- or the lack thereof -- can play a pivotal role in performance. It's far better to give your front line, face of the company employees something to look forward to in the near future; rather than having them resentfully feel like the days are dragging and the next 5 years are going to crawl by.

Regardless of how the pilot-group ultimately votes, talking it all over now is the right thing to do. It isn't an easy decision and there's a lot to consider. Some might even find themselves going back and forth for awhile as they look at all the angles. In the end, your group needs to form a consensus and move forward together. Respectfully allowing each member to voice concerns and/or ask questions now will protect your unity whichever path the majority chooses to take. Best Wishes, NJW

What on earth outside perspective could you possibly have?

Your husband is a union leader at NJ and YOU DON"T WORK THERE OR ANYWHERE IN AVIATION to get any other perspective.

That means every single thing comes from him, that means its HIS perspective communicated through you, and the NJ union membership should be embarrassed about that kind of disclosure.

Who on earth are you kidding?????????

The union has failed its membership, pilots have been forced to make career decisions and take packages and have been forced into furloughs.

That means it failed.
Cut and dried.
Black and white.
The show is over.
The fat lady sang.
The contract failed.​

Simple... ​

The union membership was not protected like they've been bragging about for years.

I still believe that the "industry leading contract" at NJ will be rewritten before all this is over. It is too large and will need to be cut back to reality.

You can use all the propaganda you want, pilots still were furloughed. Admit it for once, will you??????

 

[B19 Flyer]

(As the non-union fracs keep chugging along)

Dear Mat,

I am not a FLOPS pilot. I worked for a Frac for a year but moved on to greener ($$$) pastures. I still fly so I have an ongoing keen interest in what happens in the Pilot World. I personally supported the union drive you guys put forth. Without a union contract we all would be stuck in the right seat at year 3 making $42,000 (no offense Waco). I understand the need for a Contract with FLOPS. That being said.....

....you came onto this board with a very decent post, asking people to keep the discussion in-house (although I disagree with you on that). You seemed very professional and I detected a lot of sincerity in your words. THEN...you didn't shut up. You proceeded to post several more times, taking pot shots at, and making personal attacks on those who didn't agree with you. I don't care who shot first......you are in a position of leadership and that negates your right as a professional do retaliate. THEN.....you posted THIS THREAT to your fellow union members.....

I will promise you one thing. We will find out who you are (we always do). And when we do, I will personally insure all of our members know who you are and what you have done to work against their best interests.

Mat.....threatening your fellow union members was the most irresponsible and unprofessional thing I have seen in years. While I hope you guys do eventually find common ground and vote to ratify a decent Contract, I suspect this type of threat from a Union Boss might be the downfall of things of a while. Perhaps you can apologize to these guys for your "Mobster Threat" and they will forgive you, but I personally could never rally behind such a leader. Again, good luck to all of you guys. Your vote affects all of us who fly. Peace.

Kyle Bryant (no anons here, dude)

I agree with you 100% and this is the point I tried to make in the beginning. It was the embarrassing attitude that a union president was showing. All the years I've dealt with unions I can't ever remember such public and dishonorable behavior by a union president. To me, it reeks of him knowing that it's not good enough and he's protesting way to much.

As I stated, I don't know him at all, and I'm certain he's a good guy. But what he wrote signaled to me that you guys really needed to look at whatever it was he was trying to shove down your throats very carefully.

(As the non-union fracs keep chugging along)

 

[brokeflyer]

I agree with you 100% and this is the point I tried to make in the beginning. It was the embarrassing attitude that a union president was showing. All the years I've dealt with unions I can't ever remember such public and dishonorable behavior by a union president. To me, it reeks of him knowing that it's not good enough and he's protesting way to much.

As I stated, I don't know him at all, and I'm certain he's a good guy. But what he wrote signaled to me that you guys really needed to look at whatever it was he was trying to shove down your throats very carefully.

(As the non-union fracs keep chugging along)

you should try to change things.....only YOU can change it.

 

[fischman]

Unions on the other hand constantly create turmoil and disrespect hard working pilots, crewmembers and ground personnel. How exactly does a union like IBT or NJASAP disrespect and create turmoil? I would like a SPECIFIC example.

Everything I've stated is coming true... the TA at FLOPS is not what the pilots thought it would be, there are layoffs at NJ, pilots were forced to "voluntarily" make career decisions they shouldn't have had to make... What did NJASAP have to do with the furloughs at NetJets? NJASAP did not cause the furlough. How are "voluntary" career decisions are bad thing?

All the while non-union fracs keep chugging along. High seniority is protected while low seniority is sacrificed and last but not least.. that industry leading contract will fall before it's over. I'd say the non-union fracs aren't doing any better than the bargaining ones. How exactly do you think the NetJets CBA will fall? The only way it will fall is if 1 of 2 things happen. 1) NetJets declares bankruptcy and a judge throws it out. 2) The NetJets pilots vote for it. You have a better chance of being right about something in the industry you don't even work in :erm: (you work for a BIG non-union international carrier right??? :laugh: No. Really! I believe you. BWAAAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!) than either one of those scenarios coming to pass.

My disdain is for the union entity and the turmoil created by it, not the working pilot. You have a funny way of showing it. Perhaps you could try talking TO a pilot instead of lecturing from your high horse? If you are in management, KB, you are one of the worst leaders I have ever come across. You do not inspire me to go above and beyond. You do not encourage others to contribute to a common goal. You do not make me want to help you in any way. I would be very careful about letting my identity out because if I were your boss, you'd be out.

YOU'RE NOT EVEN A PILOT.

What makes you think you are qualified to make an informed decision either way? You are no more qualified than NJW to make remarks on the matter (sorry NJW, I know grouping him in the same bucket will just piss him off though). You are not a pilot. Your livelihood comes from an aviation company, just like hers does (except yours flies turboprops and hers flies jets). Does that qualify you in any way to intelligently remark about the life of a pilot? No. It does not KB. I'll say it again. You are NOT a pilot. You are NOT qualified to remark on us.

Why don't you try this for a change? Leave the pilots to worry about pilots. Get back up on your high horse and ride into your castle full of mirrors and admire your own image. You are not a pilot. You are a small person who needs to feel important, and aren't. You are insignificant to all but yourself, and I think it KILLS you to know that no one gives a hoot about you.

 

[B19 Flyer]

YOU'RE NOT EVEN A PILOT.

What makes you think you are qualified to make an informed decision either way? You are no more qualified than NJW to make remarks on the matter (sorry NJW, I know grouping him in the same bucket will just piss him off though). You are not a pilot. Your livelihood comes from an aviation company, just like hers does (except yours flies turboprops and hers flies jets). Does that qualify you in any way to intelligently remark about the life of a pilot? No. It does not KB. I'll say it again. You are NOT a pilot. You are NOT qualified to remark on us.

Why don't you try this for a change? Leave the pilots to worry about pilots. Get back up on your high horse and ride into your castle full of mirrors and admire your own image. You are not a pilot. You are a small person who needs to feel important, and aren't. You are insignificant to all but yourself, and I think it KILLS you to know that no one gives a hoot about you.

That's a simple answer.

What qualifies me?

I'm in management and am responsible to to keep you safe and help keep the company in business.

You on the other hand are a pilot that has chosen not to be a part of the management team. Instead, you would prefer to be part of the union mob.

I have no respect for those willing to destroy a company with a union.

THAT makes my opinion infinitely more qualified than anything you have to say now, in the past or in the future.

Period.

P.S. My company is powered by Rolls Royce. Deal with it.

 

[dime line]

That's a simple answer.

What qualifies me?

I'm in management and am responsible to to keep you safe and help keep the company in business.

You on the other hand are a pilot that has chosen not to be a part of the management team. Instead, you would prefer to be part of the union mob.

I have no respect for those willing to destroy a company with a union.

THAT makes my opinion infinitely more qualified than anything you have to say now, in the past or in the future.

Period.

P.S. My company is powered by Rolls Royce. Deal with it.

We have no respect for you

 

[fischman]

That's a simple answer.

What qualifies me?

I'm in management and am responsible to to keep you safe and help keep the company in business.

You on the other hand are a pilot that has chosen not to be a part of the management team. Instead, you would prefer to be part of the union mob.

I have no respect for those willing to destroy a company with a union.

THAT makes my opinion infinitely more qualified than anything you have to say now, in the past or in the future.

Period.

P.S. My company is powered by Rolls Royce. Deal with it.

You are responsible for MY safety? Don't worry about me. I'll do just fine without you.

Soooo management opinion means everything, and pilot opinion means nothing? Do I have that right? Wow... Tell me, "important man", why is is again that you are soooooo important? You are a small man who wishes he was big, and it kills him that he isn't. You are insignificant in the grand scheme of things. You are completely replaceable. For an example, look at the recent management change at NetJets. The current president went from line pilot to heading up the company in the span of 3 years. I am the tip of the spear as a pilot. How many butts have you kissed to get to your insignificant replaceable position? How long did that take?

Yes, I prefer to be a pilot. I went through training to fly an airplane, not a desk. That is what a rational, sane person does. He spends time and effort on things he plans on doing. Tell me, did you go through all that pilot training to fly a desk? That is not sane.

I have no respect for those who ruin a company through bad (piss poor actually) management. You are a bad manager. I have no respect for you. Your opinion is as significant as used toilet paper. It's dirty, stinks, and is full of $h!t. Why do you care anyway? Your opinion has nothing to do with FLOPS pilots or the TA does it? After all, you work for a big time non-union international carrier right??? :erm: You aren't even a pilot. How about telling the truth for once. That would be refreshing. Just once, let's hear the truth... About ANYTHING.

Do you know how someone from management is lying? Their lips (or in this case keyboard) is moving.

 

[B19 Flyer]

You are responsible for MY safety? Don't worry about me. I'll do just fine without you.

Soooo management opinion means everything, and pilot opinion means nothing? Do I have that right? Wow... Tell me, "important man", why is is again that you are soooooo important? You are a small man who wishes he was big, and it kills him that he isn't. You are insignificant in the grand scheme of things. You are completely replaceable. For an example, look at the recent management change at NetJets. The current president went from line pilot to heading up the company in the span of 3 years. I am the tip of the spear as a pilot. How many butts have you kissed to get to your insignificant replaceable position? How long did that take?

Yes, I prefer to be a pilot. I went through training to fly an airplane, not a desk. That is what a rational, sane person does. He spends time and effort on things he plans on doing. Tell me, did you go through all that pilot training to fly a desk? That is not sane.

I have no respect for those who ruin a company through bad (piss poor actually) management. You are a bad manager. I have no respect for you. Your opinion is as significant as used toilet paper. It's dirty, stinks, and is full of $h!t. Why do you care anyway? Your opinion has nothing to do with FLOPS pilots or the TA does it? After all, you work for a big time non-union international carrier right??? :erm: You aren't even a pilot. How about telling the truth for once. That would be refreshing. Just once, let's hear the truth... About ANYTHING.

Do you know how someone from management is lying? Their lips (or in this case keyboard) is moving.

Small insignificant men like me sign paychecks for big egotistical pilots like you twice a month.

Without somebody like me you are unemployed.

With your union, 500 plus pilots are unemployed (and it's nowhere near done!) Your contract failed as I said it would.

I'm right, you're wrong. Your union screws you every day a thousand times more than any manager.
Deal with reality fischman. I've been right on everything I've said, and when that contract gets opened up I'll be right there cheering them on.

 

[B19 Flyer]

We have no respect for you

Is that Beavis or Butthead? I still think its the latter.

I don't care if you respect me or not. That should be clear by now. You are the minion that relies on a union, not me.

So... back on track....

How about that big fat NJ plus a dollar contract you were promised?

Duh.. all promises and no delivery... typical union sucker.

 

[brokeflyer]

Small insignificant men like me sign paychecks for big egotistical pilots like you twice a month.

Without somebody like me you are unemployed.

With your union, 500 plus pilots are unemployed (and it's nowhere near done!) Your contract failed as I said it would.

I'm right, you're wrong. Your union screws you every day a thousand times more than any manager.
Deal with reality fischman. I've been right on everything I've said, and when that contract gets opened up I'll be right there cheering them on.

once again, you can change it. only YOU can change that. Stop crying about it and go do something about it.

only YOU can change it.

 

[BeenThereDoneIt]

Hey, B19......are you implying that NJ would NOT have any layoffs if they were non-union?

 

[B19 Flyer]

Hey, B19......are you implying that NJ would NOT have any layoffs if they were non-union?

No. I don't believe it would have been as severe as it was, and there would not have been as many families subjected to to the turmoil of the voluntary and subsequent mandatory furloughs. The company could have adjusted faster to the downturn like all of the non-union fracs did. Also, there wouldn't have been as many pilots on the payroll. NJ pilots per plane ratio is 1.5 above industry standard and the ONLY thing that forces a ratio that high is the work rules established in the contract. This means that NJ was artificially high on headcount and that needed to be adjusted.. hence furloughs to a higher degree than all the others and deeper losses than all the others.

What I am saying is that the non-union fracs are able to be leaner and meaner throughout the entire company. Union contracts do not allow flexibility within the labor cost which is one of the highest cost factors in aviation.

To watch what is happening right now is a classic case study in union/non-union companies. Union pilots reading this say "what about me?". This isn't about the individual employee, this is about company survival through tough times. Without B-H as a backer, could the unionized NJ have survived as well as a non-union NJ as a company? It's tough to say. If the current examples as non-union fracs and union fracs are now showing, the answer is clear that NJ can't recover as quickly as the others. While NJ is pulling down the workforce, other fracs are beginning to spool up. There is no way to tell how far down that industry leading contract is going to pull the company before the industry pulls back up to acceptable levels.

B-H knows that NJ could not have survived without an influx of $$ from the parent company. None of the other leading non-union fracs have that support, yet have survived through the crisis. The non-union fracs were able to quickly "circle the wagons" as this started and were able to quickly adjust to the market place. NJ has not been able to do that. A projected profit this year is just that projected. But it needs to be a hell of a profit to offset the massive previous losses.

 

[fischman]

Small insignificant men like me sign paychecks for big egotistical pilots like you twice a month.

Without somebody like me you are unemployed.

With your union, 500 plus pilots are unemployed (and it's nowhere near done!) Your contract failed as I said it would.

I'm right, you're wrong. Your union screws you every day a thousand times more than any manager. BWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Deal with reality fischman. I've been right on everything I've said, and when that contract gets opened up I'll be right there cheering them on.

You can't even cite a specific example on when you have been right. Seriously, give 1 example. I have proven you wrong and a liar at LEAST 5 times. Prove me wrong once.

Saying it is so over and over again only makes it true in your insignificant mind. I'm glad you realize how replaceable you are. Most managers feel they are the only thing keeping a company afloat, when in fact their departures are rarely even noticed by the employees or customers.