To all members in good standing of IBT Local 1108 that frequent Flightinfo.com:

[SilverSurfer]

The Mighty Favog has spoken. There is nothing more to say except...

B19, Go spew your anti union drivel somewhere else. You don't have a dog in this fight, so your opinion matters to no one here. That's the truth, deal with it.

Ignore works amazingly well

 

[B19 Flyer]

Ignore works amazingly well

True... that's exactly what your union has done to all the promises from three years ago. If they came through, the union president wouldn't be defending his stance on a public forum and the T/A would speak for itself.

 

[B19 Flyer]

My disdain is for the union entity and the turmoil created by it

you seem to take perverse pleasure is pissing pilots off! If you are trying to convince us, then why don't you state your arguments in terms that pilots will accept, instead of placing yourself outside of the realm of acceptance? You defeat yourself before you are even read. I happen to agree with some of what you say, but not your methods. You lose your argument because of your tone, regardless of whether you are correct in your facts. You sound like a polarized senator who has lost track of his argument because of his politics. I truly hope you learn to state things in a form that will gain your ideas more respect. I have to say, after all this time, that I don't expect it.


Wacoflyr

No.. those pilots that are pissed off are union members who feel it is their right to come in and take over a company.

I have never disrespected the profession, the job or the importance the pilot has on any given flight. As a matter of fact, it's rare I even discuss that.

Unions on the other hand constantly create turmoil and disrespect hard working pilots, crewmembers and ground personnel.

Everything I've stated is coming true... the TA at FLOPS is not what the pilots thought it would be, there are layoffs at NJ, pilots were forced to "voluntarily" make career decisions they shouldn't have had to make...

All the while non-union fracs keep chugging along. High seniority is protected while low seniority is sacrificed and last but not least.. that industry leading contract will fall before it's over.

My disdain is for the union entity and the turmoil created by it, not the working pilot.

 

[BeenThereDoneIt]

Dear Mat,

I am not a FLOPS pilot. I worked for a Frac for a year but moved on to greener ($$$) pastures. I still fly so I have an ongoing keen interest in what happens in the Pilot World. I personally supported the union drive you guys put forth. Without a union contract we all would be stuck in the right seat at year 3 making $42,000 (no offense Waco). I understand the need for a Contract with FLOPS. That being said.....

....you came onto this board with a very decent post, asking people to keep the discussion in-house (although I disagree with you on that). You seemed very professional and I detected a lot of sincerity in your words. THEN...you didn't shut up. You proceeded to post several more times, taking pot shots at, and making personal attacks on those who didn't agree with you. I don't care who shot first......you are in a position of leadership and that negates your right as a professional do retaliate. THEN.....you posted THIS THREAT to your fellow union members.....

I will promise you one thing. We will find out who you are (we always do). And when we do, I will personally insure all of our members know who you are and what you have done to work against their best interests.

Mat.....threatening your fellow union members was the most irresponsible and unprofessional thing I have seen in years. While I hope you guys do eventually find common ground and vote to ratify a decent Contract, I suspect this type of threat from a Union Boss might be the downfall of things of a while. Perhaps you can apologize to these guys for your "Mobster Threat" and they will forgive you, but I personally could never rally behind such a leader. Again, good luck to all of you guys. Your vote affects all of us who fly. Peace.

Kyle Bryant (no anons here, dude)

 

[993_Pilot]

Amen. I never took a shot at Mat, I only expressed my dissatisfaction with the TA along with why I am voting NO. Whether he believes it or not, I truly do appraciate all the hard work that went in to getting us this far, but I still think we could do better. Perhaps the real problem is that he doesn't have the solidarity that he needs to go further, I don't really know. What I do know is that attacking a MIGS just because he doesn't agree and support the TA is not the way to garner any respect. I chalk it up to frustration, because I am sure he has had more than his share, and he hasn't continued. Mat you may not respect me, but I truly do respect you and what you have done for us, even though I disagree that this TA is a good thing for the Flops pilot group. In fact, I think accepting this pay for 5+ years would be a bad thing for the industry in the long term. The work rules are pretty good for a first contract, but the duration is too long for the pay, and one or the other should be changed. That is my opinion.

 

[SilverSurfer]

Amen. I never took a shot at Mat, I only expressed my dissatisfaction with the TA along with why I am voting NO. Whether he believes it or not, I truly do appraciate all the hard work that went in to getting us this far, but I still think we could do better. Perhaps the real problem is that he doesn't have the solidarity that he needs to go further, I don't really know. What I do know is that attacking a MIGS just because he doesn't agree and support the TA is not the way to garner any respect. I chalk it up to frustration, because I am sure he has had more than his share, and he hasn't continued. Mat you may not respect me, but I truly do respect you and what you have done for us, even though I disagree that this TA is a good thing for the Flops pilot group. In fact, I think accepting this pay for 5+ years would be a bad thing for the industry in the long term. The work rules are pretty good for a first contract, but the duration is too long for the pay, and one or the other should be changed. That is my opinion.

Could not have said it better my self. The net pay we will see over the cycle of this contract is less then CPI. And don't count on getting anything from the SSP as defined in the TA. The company will have to reach activity levels of 2006 & 2007 before we see a cent from SSP.

Please look at this and PLEASE someone show me how I’m looking at this wrong.

Approximate current annual increase 1.3%

Number of years of contract cycle 7

Proposed TA increases Year 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

10% 3% 3% 3% 3% 3% 3%

Total net pay over contract cycle 18.9%

Net pay increase per year 2.7%

Sorry, I tried to paste a segment of a spread sheet but it does not play nice with the message board. None the less the number speak for themselves.

 

[ITFL]

Could not have said it better my self. The net pay we will see over the cycle of this contract is less then CPI. And don't count on getting anything from the SSP as defined in the TA. The company will have to reach activity levels of 2006 & 2007 before we see a cent from SSP.

Please look at this and PLEASE someone show me how I’m looking at this wrong.

Approximate current annual increase 1.3%

Number of years of contract cycle 7

Proposed TA increases Year 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

10% 3% 3% 3% 3% 3% 3%

Total net pay over contract cycle 18.9%

Net pay increase per year 2.7%

Sorry, I tried to paste a segment of a spread sheet but it does not play nice with the message board. None the less the number speak for themselves.

OK, I’ll show you how you are wrong…

Year 1) 10%
Year 2) 3.5%
Year 3) 3.5%
Year 4) 3.5% + 3% = 6.5%
Year 5) 3.5% + 3% = 6.5%

Not sure where you are getting the 6th and 7th years?

Don’t forget the 3% escalator that comes with the Companies option to extend to years 4/5, is on top of the pay scales - published in the contract -which contain a 3.5% annual increase. Take a look at the year 4/5 salary tables that the union posted today.

If you add in the increases that come on January 1, 2011, when slide to parity goes away and the compounding interest, I think the union's claim of an average 38% raise over five years makes sense.

Also I looked it up on the Bureau of Labor Statistics web site and CPI has been at 2.6%.

Since I’m certain you plugged your own numbers into the salary calculator, the union provided, I’m wondering where the confusion comes from?

Or is there an agenda of some type?

 

[AceCrackshot]

Spoken by somebody that couldn't find a federal register entry or preamble if it was tatooed on him. Yes, I find that funny.

What I also find funny is your esteemed union president finding it necessary to lower himself to lobby on a message forum for the ratification of a tentative agreement. It should stand on it's own, if it's good enough and he has the confidence in it, it should take care of itself.

Well, Bob...see, I know who you are...but I highly doubt the reverse is true...

Also, if you would have looked at my data, I voted with my feet out of the industry, primarily because of the actions of well-meaning, but politically clueless individuals, such as yourself. While I know Mat personally, and we were on good terms while I was FLOPS pilot, he is not my President.

 

[BeenThereDoneIt]

Hey ITFL.....I'm just asking this question for informational purposes only: Here are the inflation rates for the past 7 years.
09 -0.34
08 +3.85
07 +2.85
06 +3.24
05 +3.39
04 +2.68
03 +2.27

Does the FLOPS TA give a COLA to compensate for inflation, or will all those 3.5% annual increases simply be eaten up by the increases in the cost of living? Thanks for the info.

 

[SilverSurfer]

Removed to do more research

 

[Alaska82]

Hey ITFL.....I'm just asking this question for informational purposes only: Here are the inflation rates for the past 7 years.
09 -0.34
08 +3.85
07 +2.85
06 +3.24
05 +3.39
04 +2.68
03 +2.27

Does the FLOPS TA give a COLA to compensate for inflation, or will all those 3.5% annual increases simply be eaten up by the increases in the cost of living? Thanks for the info.

Inflation and union dues will eat up that 3.5% raise and then some. Plus the new pay scale for the most part is less pay vs the current pay scale. FLOPS is lowering the bar for the industry with regard to pay for any future pilot that is not on the seniority list right now.

 

[993_Pilot]

That average 36% raise that we would see in this contract might be true if everyone would keep their present seat, but that won't happen. I'm not even sure if that is a weighted average. While I have no way to know what a true weighted average is, it's probably a lot less. However, for the sake of discussion, lets assume that 36% is correct. What we do know, is that this is for an 8/7 schedule. The first problem with this comparison is that it is a comparison to Dec. 2009 pay. We would all get an annual increase anyways, so over the 5 year life of the contract, that would have been an average of probably 10%. So we're really at about 26% above what we would have received over these same 5 years. During this same time frame, our competition will probably be getting about a 3.5% annual raise and that equates to an 18.8% total raise. In reality, we're getting a whopping 7.2% closer to our competition, and that's if we believe the 36% number we started with. Since, on average, we are probably 40% underpaid compared to our competition now, we'll only be about 33% underpaid in another 5 years. This doesn't even take in to account their 7/7 schedules, better medical benefits, 401k match, etc. Considering all this, I would still be willing to suck it up for 2 or maybe even 3 years, just to have the protections, but 5 years is way too long. In my opinion, this TA is going to hurt the industry, and practically kill the IBT's chance of recruiting any other pilot group, if it is ratified. I want a contact as much as the next guy, but I am willing hold out for something better. If NJ can reject a TA, elect a new MEC, form a new local, get a new TA, and ratify it all in less than a year, we should at least be able to obtain and ratify a new TA, regardless of the doom and gloom pictures that are being painted... or maybe I'm just too optimistic.

 

[SilverSurfer]

OK, I’ll show you how you are wrong…

Year 1) 10%
Year 2) 3.5%
Year 3) 3.5%
Year 4) 3.5% + 3% = 6.5%
Year 5) 3.5% + 3% = 6.5%

Not sure where you are getting the 6th and 7th years?

Don’t forget the 3% escalator that comes with the Companies option to extend to years 4/5, is on top of the pay scales - published in the contract -which contain a 3.5% annual increase. Take a look at the year 4/5 salary tables that the union posted today.

If you add in the increases that come on January 1, 2011, when slide to parity goes away and the compounding interest, I think the union's claim of an average 38% raise over five years makes sense.

Also I looked it up on the Bureau of Labor Statistics web site and CPI has been at 2.6%.

Since I’m certain you plugged your own numbers into the salary calculator, the union provided, I’m wondering where the confusion comes from?

Or is there an agenda of some type?

OK no agenda here, just want to make sure that I know what the contract really gains us. So take a look at these numbers and tell me what you think. Oh and the 7 year thing, it's 5 years for the contract, and it will be a 5 year contract, plus the 2 years that it will take to negotiate a successor contract.


YEAR TA CURRENT

1 10% 1.3%
2 3.5% 1.3%
3 3.5% 1.3%
4 6.5% 1.3%
5 6.5% 1.3%
6 3.5% 1.3%
7 3.5% 1.3%

TOTAL 37% 9.1%

ADJUSTED TOTAL 27.9%

7 YEAR AVERAGE 3.9%

 

[William Holiday]

That's how you get FAA in 2010. That's not how it was done a decade ago. Now smarta$$.. go find the preambles and legal interpretations to support all of it. Also, while your at it.. go find the public comments and the DOT recommendations. Then, head into DC and fight for what's fair.

Speaking of which...

Your union president is jamming something down your throat because it's the union way. First you jam the union down the company's throat with all the promises that were made, now those promises of industry leading pay and work rules can't be matched.. so they want you to settle for less.

There wasn't a single pilot on this board three years ago that would have accepted a penny less than what NJA got and now your gonna get suckered...

The union is nothing more than a business and without a ratified TA there is no business....

There are bigger things in the works. All those rules you have lobbied for are under review. The rest is going to from from "FRACPAC'' Trust me, once the consumer understands what this entails, they will demand ownership in associated companies. the ability to lobby works both ways.

 

[jetwash]

Removed to do more research

Come on, this is Flight Info since when were research and facts a requirements to post.

Just throw it out and see if it sticks.

 

[1folinepilot]

Dear Mat,

I personally supported the union drive you guys put forth. Without a union contract we all would be stuck in the right seat at year 3 making $42,000. I understand the need for a Contract with FLOPS. That being said.....

....you came onto this board with a very decent post, asking people to keep the discussion in-house (although I disagree with you on that). You seemed very professional and I detected a lot of sincerity in your words. THEN...you didn't shut up. You proceeded to post several more times, taking pot shots at, and making personal attacks on those who didn't agree with you. I don't care who shot first......you are in a position of leadership and that negates your right as a professional do retaliate. THEN.....you posted THIS THREAT to your fellow union members.....

I will promise you one thing. We will find out who you are (we always do). And when we do, I will personally insure all of our members know who you are and what you have done to work against their best interests.

Mat.....threatening your fellow union members was the most irresponsible and unprofessional thing I have seen in years. While I hope you guys do eventually find common ground and vote to ratify a decent Contract, I suspect this type of threat from a Union Boss might be the downfall of things of a while. Perhaps you can apologize to these guys for your "Mobster Threat" and they will forgive you, but I personally could never rally behind such a leader. Again, good luck to all of you guys. Your vote affects all of us who fly. Peace.

Kyle Bryant (no anons here, dude)

***************************************************************

Way to go Mat, Threatening your fellow union members to get this contract signed????? How much is Ricki paying you and Rick under the table to get this thing signed?

 

[netjetwife]

....I would still be willing to suck it up for 2 or maybe even 3 years, just to have the protections, but 5 years is way too long. In my opinion, this TA is going to hurt the industry, and practically kill the IBT's chance of recruiting any other pilot group, if it is ratified. I want a contact as much as the next guy, but I am willing hold out for something better. If NJ can reject a TA, elect a new MEC, form a new local, get a new TA, and ratify it all in less than a year, we should at least be able to obtain and ratify a new TA, regardless of the doom and gloom pictures that are being painted... or maybe I'm just too optimistic.

From my outside perspective, this is pretty much how I view the situation, as well. And I don't think you have unrealistic hopes that a new TA could be agreed upon within a year. That seems entirely feasible to me. If pay truly couldn't be improved, then shortening the duration and/or making adjustments to some of the other lower-cost items shouldn't take many meetings.

Personally speaking, I think a shorter length CBA would be in the company's best interest, too. As others have mentioned, motivation -- or the lack thereof -- can play a pivotal role in performance. It's far better to give your front line, face of the company employees something to look forward to in the near future; rather than having them resentfully feel like the days are dragging and the next 5 years are going to crawl by.

Regardless of how the pilot-group ultimately votes, talking it all over now is the right thing to do. It isn't an easy decision and there's a lot to consider. Some might even find themselves going back and forth for awhile as they look at all the angles. In the end, your group needs to form a consensus and move forward together. Respectfully allowing each member to voice concerns and/or ask questions now will protect your unity whichever path the majority chooses to take. Best Wishes, NJW

 

[B19 Flyer]

Admit it for once, will you??????

From my outside perspective, this is pretty much how I view the situation, as well. And I don't think you have unrealistic hopes that a new TA could be agreed upon within a year. That seems entirely feasible to me. If pay truly couldn't be improved, then shortening the duration and/or making adjustments to some of the other lower-cost items shouldn't take many meetings.

Personally speaking, I think a shorter length CBA would be in the company's best interest, too. As others have mentioned, motivation -- or the lack thereof -- can play a pivotal role in performance. It's far better to give your front line, face of the company employees something to look forward to in the near future; rather than having them resentfully feel like the days are dragging and the next 5 years are going to crawl by.

Regardless of how the pilot-group ultimately votes, talking it all over now is the right thing to do. It isn't an easy decision and there's a lot to consider. Some might even find themselves going back and forth for awhile as they look at all the angles. In the end, your group needs to form a consensus and move forward together. Respectfully allowing each member to voice concerns and/or ask questions now will protect your unity whichever path the majority chooses to take. Best Wishes, NJW

What on earth outside perspective could you possibly have?

Your husband is a union leader at NJ and YOU DON"T WORK THERE OR ANYWHERE IN AVIATION to get any other perspective.

That means every single thing comes from him, that means its HIS perspective communicated through you, and the NJ union membership should be embarrassed about that kind of disclosure.

Who on earth are you kidding?????????

The union has failed its membership, pilots have been forced to make career decisions and take packages and have been forced into furloughs.

That means it failed.
Cut and dried.
Black and white.
The show is over.
The fat lady sang.
The contract failed.​

Simple... ​

The union membership was not protected like they've been bragging about for years.

I still believe that the "industry leading contract" at NJ will be rewritten before all this is over. It is too large and will need to be cut back to reality.

You can use all the propaganda you want, pilots still were furloughed. Admit it for once, will you??????

 

[B19 Flyer]

(As the non-union fracs keep chugging along)

Dear Mat,

I am not a FLOPS pilot. I worked for a Frac for a year but moved on to greener ($$$) pastures. I still fly so I have an ongoing keen interest in what happens in the Pilot World. I personally supported the union drive you guys put forth. Without a union contract we all would be stuck in the right seat at year 3 making $42,000 (no offense Waco). I understand the need for a Contract with FLOPS. That being said.....

....you came onto this board with a very decent post, asking people to keep the discussion in-house (although I disagree with you on that). You seemed very professional and I detected a lot of sincerity in your words. THEN...you didn't shut up. You proceeded to post several more times, taking pot shots at, and making personal attacks on those who didn't agree with you. I don't care who shot first......you are in a position of leadership and that negates your right as a professional do retaliate. THEN.....you posted THIS THREAT to your fellow union members.....

I will promise you one thing. We will find out who you are (we always do). And when we do, I will personally insure all of our members know who you are and what you have done to work against their best interests.

Mat.....threatening your fellow union members was the most irresponsible and unprofessional thing I have seen in years. While I hope you guys do eventually find common ground and vote to ratify a decent Contract, I suspect this type of threat from a Union Boss might be the downfall of things of a while. Perhaps you can apologize to these guys for your "Mobster Threat" and they will forgive you, but I personally could never rally behind such a leader. Again, good luck to all of you guys. Your vote affects all of us who fly. Peace.

Kyle Bryant (no anons here, dude)

I agree with you 100% and this is the point I tried to make in the beginning. It was the embarrassing attitude that a union president was showing. All the years I've dealt with unions I can't ever remember such public and dishonorable behavior by a union president. To me, it reeks of him knowing that it's not good enough and he's protesting way to much.

As I stated, I don't know him at all, and I'm certain he's a good guy. But what he wrote signaled to me that you guys really needed to look at whatever it was he was trying to shove down your throats very carefully.

(As the non-union fracs keep chugging along)

 

[brokeflyer]

I agree with you 100% and this is the point I tried to make in the beginning. It was the embarrassing attitude that a union president was showing. All the years I've dealt with unions I can't ever remember such public and dishonorable behavior by a union president. To me, it reeks of him knowing that it's not good enough and he's protesting way to much.

As I stated, I don't know him at all, and I'm certain he's a good guy. But what he wrote signaled to me that you guys really needed to look at whatever it was he was trying to shove down your throats very carefully.

(As the non-union fracs keep chugging along)

you should try to change things.....only YOU can change it.