To all CAL guys... from a furloughed pilot

[007]

Do you want the "old guys" to not "give a rats ass" about scope, furlough or longevity protections for the "younger guys"?

Oh, when did they start to?

 

[flygirlqt]

I didn't say we were going to change things, I said we could. I'm only trying to educated the uneducated while I have them in the seat for a few hours.

I don't agree with your version of education, especially after reading your post. I also think you're are preaching about false messiahs on the property that are going to overwhelm and change the pathetic status quo within CALALPA and ALPA National.

The problem is not with scabs, but it is deep seated problems of apathy borne by years of mistrust created by ALPA politics, political shenanigans and favoritism. Compounding the problem we have the behavior of CALALPA prior to contract 02 with the trip loss scandal and other areas of deception, lackluster performance and outright incompetence that is still continuing today.

I would just prefer they would admit they screwed up and we could move on.

You want people to admit to screwing up but where is your demand for accountability from ALPA for their actions prior to contract 02. While you are at it, how about getting ALPA to admit to the very damaging things to our careers that have transpired since, like age 65?

They only think of themselves, always have always will.

Your words betray you because I would say the same about you. You will never get people on your side with your divide and conquer thinking. More importantly though, we will never pull together as a whole with that manner of opinion.

We are divided but hopefully on our side. Say NO to a 150% pay for the right seat time, NO to picking up open time, and certainly NO to the first TA.

The interesting thing about the right seat, VJM and open time pick up is very few scabs have been doing this. I watched the pools and open time in August out of morbid curiosity and there were only 4 or 5 of the scabs that came up. I was up to about 55 names that were not 83 - 85 hires that were continually acting as company saviors.

Voting No means nothing without a credible strike threat or job action. With the state of SPSC and the P2P program management doesn't care about a no vote. In fact they will welcome it.

I'm just as worried as the next guy about this contract. I won't settle for less than what we deserve, even if I have to give up my job. I want the career back that we all singed up for not the run of the mill job it's become.

No disagreement there with me. But thinking this new blood is going to be some magic cure all or alienating segments of the list will not achieve that.

You like chewing up my post but you offer nothing. What do you suggest?

Your post is the least of what I take an issue with. It is your attitude.and divisiveness. I would suggest the first thing would be to toss your B3rd mentality and realize that to obtain the contract we deserve that every ones issues are important. I seriously take offense to your attitude of throwing any segment under the bus, no matter what excuse there is.

Are you a SCAB?

Now that is a very ignorant assumption. Does anyone that disagrees with your ideals, tactics and opinions are then labeled or assumed to be a scab? Just to humor you, I was in grade school in 1983

I have said it before I will say it again. When you talk to some of the more rational ones from the 83 -85 era, it is very frightening when you listen to their views about ALPA. They bring up the same problems they either experienced or discuss about ALPA happening today as it was 25 years ago within the union. Putting the rhetoric aside, that is not a good sign.

You and I want the same goals, but we are diametrically opposed in the methods of getting there.

 

[bizicmo]

I didn't say we were going to change things, I said we could. I'm only trying to educated the uneducated while I have them in the seat for a few hours. I would just prefer they would admit they screwed up and we could move on. They only think of themselves, always have always will.

We are divided but hopefully on our side. Say NO to a 150% pay for the right seat time, NO to picking up open time, and certainly NO to the first TA.

I'm just as worried as the next guy about this contract. I won't settle for less than what we deserve, even if I have to give up my job. I want the career back that we all singed up for not the run of the mill job it's become.

You like chewing up my post but you offer nothing. What do you suggest? Are you a SCAB?

Dude, are you on drugs??? All you talk about are scabs and question everyone else about whether or not they are one. Are you related to Joseph McCarthy by chance?

 

[IAHERJ]

To those who think 'I should've known what CAL was like before i came here'. Ummm right, like you knew exactly everything (including the contract) when you got hired at your airline. Of course you did

Besides, it's different when you look at CAL from the outside and when you're swimming in this sh.. inside. Sure i knew about $32/hr and no health care, but the sad contract nonsense just piles up one after another

Needless to say, I never regretted anything in my career as i regret being at CAL, and it's a shame to even think that (considering there are so many out there wishing to be here). It's ok, i'll free up a spot here sooner or later. You learn and move on. And no, it's not a whining post. It's a reality check for those who are thinking about coming here

So let me get this straight. You want me and others to "fix" the problems so you have something acceptable to come back to yet you are still going to trash CAL and are looking for something different on a permanent basis? I can promise you we are going to get a lot better contract this go around but I can also promise you that I will not have your interests in mind at all given your ranting. I'm sorry you were hired less than a year ago at the tail end of a hiring wave and probably spent what 7-11 months riding the bottom trips on the 757/767 to the UK. If you had been hired a year earlier would you be so doom and gloom and anti-CAL? I doubt it. You got a raw deal based on timing(nothing you could have done about it). Do we have problems? Yes! Are we fixing these problems, you bet. Sorry you do not have a job here right now. The company already showed their hand and we know there is a good possibility of getting all of you back over the next year while at the same time addressing many quality of life issues immediately. We will do our part and you can chose to either be bitter and throw pop shots from the sidelines or do what you can in the meantime for you(while I pitch in for your healthcare as I voted for the deal) and look forward to coming back to a better CAL. If you are gone for good, please refrain from bashing this company and our pilot group. It does nothing for your Karma....

IAHERJ

 

[talespin]

I don't agree with your version of education, especially after reading your post. I also think you're are preaching about false messiahs on the property that are going to overwhelm and change the pathetic status quo within CALALPA and ALPA National.

The problem is not with scabs, but it is deep seated problems of apathy borne by years of mistrust created by ALPA politics, political shenanigans and favoritism. Compounding the problem we have the behavior of CALALPA prior to contract 02 with the trip loss scandal and other areas of deception, lackluster performance and outright incompetence that is still continuing today.



You want people to admit to screwing up but where is your demand for accountability from ALPA for their actions prior to contract 02. While you are at it, how about getting ALPA to admit to the very damaging things to our careers that have transpired since, like age 65?



Your words betray you because I would say the same about you. You will never get people on your side with your divide and conquer thinking. More importantly though, we will never pull together as a whole with that manner of opinion.




The interesting thing about the right seat, VJM and open time pick up is very few scabs have been doing this. I watched the pools and open time in August out of morbid curiosity and there were only 4 or 5 of the scabs that came up. I was up to about 55 names that were not 83 - 85 hires that were continually acting as company saviors.

Voting No means nothing without a credible strike threat or job action. With the state of SPSC and the P2P program management doesn't care about a no vote. In fact they will welcome it.




No disagreement there with me. But thinking this new blood is going to be some magic cure all or alienating segments of the list will not achieve that.



Your post is the least of what I take an issue with. It is your attitude.and divisiveness. I would suggest the first thing would be to toss your B3rd mentality and realize that to obtain the contract we deserve that every ones issues are important. I seriously take offense to your attitude of throwing any segment under the bus, no matter what excuse there is.



Now that is a very ignorant assumption. Does anyone that disagrees with your ideals, tactics and opinions are then labeled or assumed to be a scab? Just to humor you, I was in grade school in 1983

I have said it before I will say it again. When you talk to some of the more rational ones from the 83 -85 era, it is very frightening when you listen to their views about ALPA. They bring up the same problems they either experienced or discuss about ALPA happening today as it was 25 years ago within the union. Putting the rhetoric aside, that is not a good sign.

You and I want the same goals, but we are diametrically opposed in the methods of getting there.

Your points are well taken.

I'm not aiming at scabs but at the mentality that is scab like. I agree about the 150% being mostly non scabs but it is scab mentality, especially when we were on the eve of a furlough.

I've been an ALPA member for over ten years. Do I like them, no not really. They screwed everyone of us with age 65 and I think we all know they don't have our best interest in mind. Unfortunately they are all we have at this time. It's kind of like the government, never mind I'll open that can of worms some other time.

I would rather we were all on the same page but the simple fact is we have an infestation that festers still today. Some would have you believe if weren't for them Continental would have been long gone. No matter how bad things are you should never fall to that level. I'm willing to listen to any reasonable effort to make this a better contract with our brothers and sisters standing together, but I'm not willing to sit silent and let the cards fall where they fall. I would love to sit by the fire and sing together but you know there are some who would steal our chocolate while we roast our marshmallows.

 

[talespin]

Dude, are you on drugs??? All you talk about are scabs and question everyone else about whether or not they are one. Are you related to Joseph McCarthy by chance?

It's the mentality that makes the person what they are or are not. I'm not questioning if everyone is a scab or not, I'm questioning the mind set. When we have guys and girls about to loose their jobs and some of their fellow pilots are lining their own pockets off their backs is pretty much what a scab would do, don't you think?

Drugs no! but I probably should be because I'm waisting my time with this reply.

 

[contrail67]

Glad I turned them down last year...............

You got hired and turned them down?....don't hear that much.

 

[100/hour/5y]

You got hired and turned them down?....don't hear that much.

I had 3 friends that turned down CAL to go to NWA... Tried to talk them out of it, but now wish I had went to NWA...
CAL has a long way to go... I would leave right now if I can get on with DL, SWA or FedEx, In fact I would leave up to my 4th year at CAL and at anytime to FedEX

 

[flygirlqt]

Flygirlqt has been a scab apologist ever since she got hired at CAL. She is a "future scab" as sure as the sun rises in the east. We have a scab out here in Guam (who is STILL proud of what he accomplished as an MEC member during POS 02) who tells everyone and anyone that we will be lucky to hold onto what we have.... McCarthy was a prophetic American. With his upbringing, it's no wonder he was able to sniff out all that corruption. God bless the Fox Valley.

No Steve, I am just not as ignorant as you are and can actually form my own opinions of people regardless of their past. I actually believe tools like yourself actually are a greater impediment to a decent contact.

As far as future scabbing, my father was a rEAL pilot and I am in law school at this point so put your (minuscule) johnson back in your shorts with your wet dream. I'd kick you right in your nutsack if you ever dared to say that to my face.

It has always amazed me how shortsighted people are (like yourself) when it comes to fighting management instead of people that were here long before you or I arrived. Further neither of us can do a damn thing about it.

 

[AWACoff]

How can you live with your statements about scabs being some of the nicest people you've flown with when you father was a rEAL pilot??? Why is it when I notice bizarre behavior, more often than not that person turns out to be a scab??? Those people just ain't right. The worst thing of all is when your ex-girlfriend is on the same message board and has to "out" a guys lack of size. I swear it was like throwing a hotdog down a hallway! Honestly!

As far as not being able to do anything about fighting management...that is a defeatist attitude. With that kind of attitude, tools like yourself will be quite successful at POS '08.

 

[flygirlqt]

How can you live with your statements about scabs being some of the nicest people you've flown with when you father was a rEAL pilot???

Maybe, unlike yourself, I get along with people better? I made a decision not to judge ones past when I hired on here knowing the makeup of the airline. Just because you are too stupid to have that attitude and let it eat you up is not my problem. Besides, listening to some of these guys, they are right about ALPA. Deep down that scares little boys like you because watching the union crumble around you it woudl kill you to admit the scabs may have a point about ALPA.

Don't even get me started about what my father felt about ALPA and the wonderful treatment he and other out of work Eastern pilots received from his fellow ALPA brothers after Eastern shutdown.

Why is it when I notice bizarre behavior, more often than not that person turns out to be a scab???

I don't know, maybe besides you being short and minuscule in the man department you believe you are also clairvoyant?

Those people just ain't right. The worst thing of all is when your ex-girlfriend is on the same message board and has to "out" a guys lack of size. I swear it was like throwing a hotdog down a hallway! Honestly!

So you are admitting your physical size deficiency then?

Ex girlfriend? Nah....tried that once, one very brief encounter with another girl I worked with at Hooters in College.. I wasn't into it.

I don't get that whole hot dog comment. Is that some subconscious craving for you with long meaty cylindrical objects? Freudian slip?

As far as not being able to do anything about fighting management...that is a defeatist attitude. With that kind of attitude, tools like yourself will be quite successful at POS '08.

You really are dense aren't you? Reread what I wrote and get back to me what I actually said. Given that with your bizarre behavior, would I assume you are a scab? No,I just would believe you are a feminine cleansing product

 

[flygirlqt]

tttttttttt

Your points are well taken.

That is all I can ask and hope to achieve. I appreciate you listening to in the least another point of view unlike your other former awac counterpart Steve above.

I'm not aiming at scabs but at the mentality that is scab like. I agree about the 150% being mostly non scabs but it is scab mentality, especially when we were on the eve of a furlough.

I agree. What transpired this summer and those who were saviors points to a problem that we can not blame any longer on the 83-85 era pilots. The only reason I even bring it up is until we all address the true threats and those who are trying to subvert our efforts we all will fail. Many of those threats come from within CALALPA and ALPA National.

I've been an ALPA member for over ten years. Do I like them, no not really. They screwed everyone of us with age 65 and I think we all know they don't have our best interest in mind.

I have absolutely had it with ALPA. I watched what occurred with my father at Eastern as well as the continuing pathetic responses industry wide with their representation. The pay going to the National officers and the support staff is a complete disgrace given the woefully abysmal reaction to industry events over the last several years. It is just disgusting. ALPA is nothing more than a giant pyramid scheme built on political favors and the good old boy system.

They do provide excellent safety support but have totally lost touch with the membership.

On a micronism at CAL, what occurred here since they have been on the property is nothing short of betrayal. After Contract 02 I am disgusted to have even paid dues for what they did and those that lined their pockets on trip loss.

Unfortunately they are all we have at this time. It's kind of like the government, never mind I'll open that can of worms some other time.

You are right about that. I believe that should contract 08 turn out to be a joke we will see a decertification effort at CAL. I know the guy running EWR CA rep has said that should they fail us again he will lead the effort.

I would rather we were all on the same page but the simple fact is we have an infestation that festers still today.

The problem is, and this summer has proven it, we assume the enemies among us are from a certain hire date. I think that is completely wrong judging by the saviors this summer. Further, the make up of the union has completely changed and this bunch is just as pathetic as the last.

Some would have you believe if weren't for them Continental would have been long gone. No matter how bad things are you should never fall to that level.

I'll tell you what is interesting. There are so few of the full term strikers left, but they were very interesting to listen to. I compare their feeling to my father at Eastern and both schools of thought were the same that ALPA was prepared to let CAL die like Eastern. A lot of politics from United and Frontier for CAL and Delta with the Eastern issue.

What transpired this summer and those who were saviors points to a problem that we can not blame any longer on the 83-85 era pilots. The only reason I even bring it up is until we all address the true threat and those who are trying to subvert our efforts

On a micronism at CAL, what occurred here since they have been on the property is nothing short of betrayal.

I'm willing to listen to any reasonable effort to make this a better contract with our brothers and sisters standing together, but I'm not willing to sit silent and let the cards fall where they fall. I would love to sit by the fire and sing together but you know there are some who would steal our chocolate while we roast our marshmallows.

I agree with that but the enemies amongst us do not carry the same hire dates. If we focus on that then we lose sight of the big picture and what in my opinion is a crumbling retooled (sorry to offend you AWACOFF) CALALPA. That is all I am trying to say.

Besides, I don't eat Marshmallows or Chocolate. Not good for the ass you know

 

[Tail Gunner Joe]

Are you related to Joseph McCarthy by chance?

No, but my screen name is.

 

[flygirlqt]

We have a scab out here in Guam (who is STILL proud of what he accomplished as an MEC member during POS 02) .

I just couldn't let these go hairpiece man. Or is that just a really bad comb over? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

WS is not a scab since he was hired in June of 87. He also was not on the MEC but the LEC Captain representative. The 3 former MEC members are all Houston based and never flew in GUM

You are so ignorant you can't even keep your facts straight. Do you have the balls to tell him this in person or do you just stroke yourself on these forums to make yourself sound like a tough guy?

 

[milky]

Though the state of the profession is appalling, I have to wonder how it is you accepted a position there? I don't think there is anyone on this board from any aspect of the industry that doesn't know CO starting rate or that they don't have insurance for 6 months...

So tell me... did you not KNOW any of this before you elected to accept the position?

Tell me also what committees did you serve on in YOUR union to fight for change? (or did you expect the government to do it FOR you)?

Yes, pathetic state of the profession, but as long as there are people clamoring to accept that status, you aren't helping, and can't claim "Oh, I'm a lib I didn't KNOOOOOOWWWWWW they were doing to do that to me....waah".

You guys can jump all over RIF for posting this, but it is exactly true. One of the only market forces we can control as pilots is not working for companies that treat pilots poorly. But, like he said, there are literally thousands of guys pounding on the door for the same crappy jobs, so this will not change.

WHY WOULD A COMPANY GIVE YOU MORE MONEY???????????? There are thousands of guys willing to take your job if you quit. Good luck. It is sad because I, too, had hoped to transition to commercial flying and be able to make a living wage.

 

[waveflyer]

You guys can jump all over RIF for posting this, but it is exactly true. One of the only market forces we can control as pilots is not working for companies that treat pilots poorly. But, like he said, there are literally thousands of guys pounding on the door for the same crappy jobs, so this will not change.

WHY WOULD A COMPANY GIVE YOU MORE MONEY???????????? There are thousands of guys willing to take your job if you quit. Good luck. It is sad because I, too, had hoped to transition to commercial flying and be able to make a living wage.

From day 1 we've been taught to chase the carrot.
Flight instruct b/c it will lead to the cargo job which will lead to the commuter job which will lead to the regional job which will lead to the major-- only to find out then that it's a while before life is good at the majors.

It's all relative-- We need to get out of the mentality that the carrot is more valuable than a dollar today. The jobs should pay what they are worth, right now- not in what they qualify you to do later.

Scope is also the problem. "regional" subcontractors will never have the leverage to get decent contracts - and will never have job security b/c of their nature. we have to let go of our individual egos and do things that increase leverage. Level out payscales. Up "first" year pay.

 

[BigMeat]

Flygirlqt,

We have discussed before but when you use someones name that is low. Ive had these cordial discussions with you previous and it has been heated but refering to somones name on these bored is pathetic.

Speaking of pathetic or should I say apathetic, this is the problem of this pilot group. Who at this airline set the tone of how it was going to be for the next couple of decades? The scabs of course. I hear them complain about how crappy their pay was when they started. Guess what of course your pay is going to be crappy. YOU SCABBED!!! After that they made sure they took care of each other while they were here. It was very hard for the members of this airline to change things after that. The scabs neither wanted to fight nor put their own necks on the line for anything. The other guys had to pull their weight also. Thats why CAL pilots dont turn down TAs. Thats why they have had the worst contract in the industry. You think we are a minority in our thinking? Ask some of the senior cats around here that didnt scab. Ask them how they feel about those who did and in their view how they have kept this pilot group down. Albiet, there are some nice scabs out there. Thats not the argument.

 

[flygirlqt]

We have discussed before but when you use someones name that is low. Ive had these cordial discussions with you previous and it has been heated but referring to somones name on these bored is pathetic.

Did we discuss this before? I don’t recall that. What I think is really pathetic is that tool, because he doesn’t agree with my views or opinions tells me and assumes I would scab. That is quite offensive especially growing up in a rEAL home. I would also add that is the second or third time he has done this on here.

Speaking of pathetic or should I say apathetic, this is the problem of this pilot group. Who at this airline set the tone of how it was going to be for the next couple of decades? The scabs of course.

I disagree. Perhaps if this was 1988 (I wasn’t around then) I would have to agree. But it is 2008, the strike was over 25 years ago. There are fewer than (probably) 10% of the pilots who are scabs employed today. I hardly believe that this small group exerts such a will over others. If that is the case then perhaps ALPA needs to figure what the hell they are doing to emulate such mind control on others. Especially on all this new blood I keep hearing about. I remember hearing about how all the new blood was going to bury contract 02. We all know how that turned out.

What about the furloughed medical vote? Only 28% voted so again I'll ask..where is all this new blood that is supposed to turn everything around?

When you look at the backgrounds of those within the union that have been calling the shots,handing out political favoritism and other perks, all except one of them are not scabs. So what is the problem then?

I hear them complain about how crappy their pay was when they started. Guess what of course your pay is going to be crappy. YOU SCABBED!!!

I honestly can say I have never heard one say that. It seems that the other side of the coin we keep hearing about how they say they are fine with their pay and benefit so people get pissed off about that. So which one is it? One thing that I do hear consistently is the bitter hatred towards ALPA. Sifting through the rhetoric I have to agree with a lot of what they say about ALPA considering ALPA’s actions on property and over the last few years.

After that they made sure they took care of each other while they were here.

Explain. But let’s talk about taking care of others. Look at the flight pay loss scandal within CALALPA. Look at the continued regurgitating of committee members and how the good old boy system is alive and well in Houston. Do you want other example of taking care of each other?

It was very hard for the members of this airline to change things after that.

BS...that is a weak argument.

The scabs neither wanted to fight nor put their own necks on the line for anything.

I have flown with some very militant scabs. I have also flown with and talked to a heck of a lot of non scabs that won’t do a thing for anyone. .Can you explain why we have had numerous non 83-85 pilots vjm this summer? Or flying in the right seat?

The other guys had to pull their weight also. That’s why CAL pilots dont turn down TAs. Thats why they have had the worst contract in the industry.

ALPA forced this contract by fear tactics and th sky is falling drama combined with reprehensible conduct during the approaching deadline. Let’s also not forget the guys that sold us out and went to management were not scabs

You think we are a minority in our thinking?

Not sure actually.

Ask some of the senior cats around here that didnt scab. Ask them how they feel about those who did and in their view how they have kept this pilot group down.

When flying with a lot of the returning strikers although they despised the people who crossed in the end had the exact same complaints about ALPA. It made no sense. A lot of those senior scabs were also former ALPA pilots. Doesn’t that strike (no pun intended) people as odd?

The ALPA negotiated contract is what is keeping people down. Our ALPA masters do not want to take responsibility for the situation we find ourselves in with contract 02. The same goes for the ALPA apologists.

Albiet, there are some nice scabs out there. Thats not the argument.

You are right it is not. My only argument is all of us, even Mr. comb over had better start truly examining what our problems are at Continental They are today, in 2008, coming from a dysfunctional, weak union that needs a total cleansing of personnel. There also needs to be a complete revamped thinking and strategy starting at the top of National ALPA

However, I feel that ALPA will never change and they will deliver, once again, a substandard pathetic contract. They ultimately don't care because no matter what, the dues keep rolling in.

But we can continue blame the same scapegoats or try and change the collision course we are on today with another failed contract. The first step in that change is to start placing blame exactly where it belongs today in 2008, not 1983

 

[milky]

From day 1 we've been taught to chase the carrot.
Flight instruct b/c it will lead to the cargo job which will lead to the commuter job which will lead to the regional job which will lead to the major-- only to find out then that it's a while before life is good at the majors.

It's all relative-- We need to get out of the mentality that the carrot is more valuable than a dollar today. The jobs should pay what they are worth, right now- not in what they qualify you to do later.

Scope is also the problem. "regional" subcontractors will never have the leverage to get decent contracts - and will never have job security b/c of their nature. we have to let go of our individual egos and do things that increase leverage. Level out payscales. Up "first" year pay.

I think you're still missing the boat on this one. The market decides how much you get paid. Pilots cannot decide what they want to get paid. Employers cannot decide what they want to pay you. Any group, pilots or employers, that thinks differently will fail.
For now, there are an overwhelming number of people willing to fly for very little money. As long as that continues, wages will stay low. Much like any broken system, it will have to get worse before it gets better. In this case, many people will have to quit being pilots and find other work before there will be a shortage of pilots. Until there is scarcity among labor (pilots), there will not be a market force driving up wages. Throw in the heavy unionization of the industry which has many consequences (some good and some bad from a pilot perspective... usually depending on where you fall in seniority, etc), and you have things really working against pilots getting paid more and being mobile in the overall industry. So, for now, get lucky and get on with your 'dream job' and hope that the pay stays where you want it and that you never have to switch jobs.

 

[BigMeat]

Flygirlqt,

Your missing the point. They set the tone for years to come. Look at the training dept. I had a couple of real mediocre instrcutors that were "taken care of". Have you seen some of these substandards on a checkride being given by a fellow scab? I have seen it. This has nothing to do with the guys that did scab and turned around and today are very militant unionist. They are a minority. The majority of them still suck. Either by attitude, skill or both. Why do you stick up for them so? Just curious.