Three Insugents Killed (300 More Created)

[MarineGrunt]

I know why the "shut up and do your job" attitude is employed in our military. You really believe I should not consider what it is that we are involved in, and I shouldn't raise questions like this?

So what is your problem with our strategy? I've asked the question, do you even know what it is?

Please tell me you aren't so naive to think I read this story, then started questioning our strategy for success in Iraq.

I wouldn't call it naive, unfortunately it's a reality with way to many Americans. The question is are you naive enough to buy into the rhetoric. Which if you are using this story as an example, you certainly are. Do you want us to not fight the enemy? Saldy enough, collateral damage is a part of war as much as we try to avoid it.

I'm more interested in hearing from fellow military aviators on the topic of overall iraqi strategy than questioning the validity of that particular decision. I used that as an example.

Why don't we hear what you think of our strategy first, so we don't have to assume that you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Why don't we put the blame for this incident where it belongs? On the dudes that planted an IED and then hid out in a house with women and children. You have to know there are no combat pilots out there that would knowingly drop an LGB or a JDAM on a house with kids in it. Those kids died because a few guys knowingly and willingly put them in danger. Maybe next time the locals will tell 'em to get the hell out of the house the next time they plant a bomb and let themselves in.

See, I thought that too, and yes I agree, the blame for those dead women and kids rests solely on those insurgents. But let's look at our enemy. They routinely employ suicide bombing tactics. They don't care about putting their lives or the lives of those they "love" in danger. We killed insurgents, but don't you agree, in the blood vengance culture, we created a lot more, and are ultimately hurting our own objective?

The big question is, do actions like this (seems to be our strategy) get us closer to a stable and democratic Iraq, which we can all agree is what we want?

 

[stonewall]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4577578.stm

This is a prime example of why the situation in Iraq is where it's at. This is not a slight to the men and women on the ground and in the air who do their jobs heroically. But is it too difficult for the policy makers to see how operations such as this are going to cause more problems than they solve in the long run?

It's hard for me to understand how anybody can see Operation Iraqi Freedom as a success anymore, considering the price. I'd be interested to see what the folks here have to say about this. Anybody realizing the emporer has no clothes?

This is merely soliciting opinions? Your last paragraph lays down where you stand regarding the war and goes beyond simply saying "hey, whadda y'all think?"

Obviously, I don't think my positions are bad. However, what you say in the last paragraph about the price of this war and the CINC clearly gives the enemy hope and strengthens their resolve to keep fighting. If they can get you to say it ain't worth it anymore, they can get the average american to easily say it. That, my friend, helps the resolve of the terrorists in Iraq.

Stop saying stuff and then turning around and saying "I didn't say that." Are you taking arguing lessons from your wife??

 

[Deuce130]

Jump to whatever conclusion you need to that suits your preconcieved notion of anyone who utters anything contradictory to your viewpoint MG.

I'd be interested to hear how a thread on FI.com about the logic of some of our Iraq policies is going to undermine the war effort. THAT kind of attitude smacks of Facism and Authoritarianism, the very kind of attitude that was employed in the previous Iraqi regime. Kind of ironic.

KP, one of the many reasons we're there is b/c of the tactics used by Saddam to quench dissent. His tactics, however, didn't include calling you out on a message chat board. His tactics included things like chemical bombs, torture chambers, mass killings, torture, extortion, etc. If all the prior Iraqi regime did was throw cupcakes at each other on the internet, we wouldn't be there right now. But, that's typical of lefties such as yourself. You exaggerate all criticisms against you as an effort to shut you up or supress your opinions, or in the extreme case, compare it to the tactics of totalitarian regimes. In reality, it's just people with different positions telling you that you're wrong. Big difference in telling someone they're wrong and torturing or killing them. Maybe someday people will understand that.

And I apologize for my earlier comment calling you an imposter. I just found it hard to believe that a fellow military pilot was such a flaming leftie! It was easier to believe you were a socialist brit. My bad.

 

[stonewall]

See, I thought that too, and yes I agree, the blame for those dead women and kids rests solely on those insurgents. But let's look at our enemy. They routinely employ suicide bombing tactics. They don't care about putting their lives or the lives of those they "love" in danger. We killed insurgents, but don't you agree, in the blood vengance culture, we created a lot more, and are ultimately hurting our own objective?

The big question is, do actions like this (seems to be our strategy) get us closer to a stable and democratic Iraq, which we can all agree is what we want?

This is not our strategy. This was not policy, this was not the goal of this strike. This was an accident caused by the insurgents.

And, like MG said earlier, if the vengeance culture is prevelant in the Middle East, anti-insurgents are being bred much faster. They have killed many times more Iraqis and Muslims (intentionally, mind you) than any American forces.

What's more, I think more and more people ARE against the insurgency these days...you just won't hear that on CNN, AP, Reuters or the BBC. I'm not a reflexive lefty hater...but those "news organizations" have dropped the ball repeatedly on what's really going on over there, from taking bribes from Saddam to employing stringers to being used as PR for pre-planned terrorist attacks. There's a reason that story was reported so prominently in the UK.

 

[KarmaPolice]

So what is your problem with our strategy? I've asked the question, do you even know what it is?

I wouldn't call it naive, unfortunately it's a reality with way to many Americans. The question is are you naive enough to buy into the rhetoric. Which if you are using this story as an example, you certainly are. Do you want us to not fight the enemy? Saldy enough, collateral damage is a part of war as much as we try to avoid it.

Why don't we hear what you think of our strategy first, so we don't have to assume that you have no idea what you are talking about.

I don't "buy into" any rhetoric. I look at the cold hard facts and make up my own mind. I am sometimes pursuaded by clear cut logical uses of the facts. (I don't have preconcieved opinions which i'll stick to regardless of factual evidence to the contrary)

I do think our strategy can be better and more effective if we take into account the fact that collateral damage is a critical element in this war and has to be avoided at almost all costs. So there you have it, fire away.

I understand it can be unavoidable, and no other country on earth has gone to further lengths to invent and employ technologies that will limit it. But there has been so many incidents like this which seem to fuel more and more insurgents, which we respond back with more incidents like this. My point is, this cycle we're in doesn't seem to be getting us anywhere. But so many of us cling to our strategy like it's a religion.

Your thoughts doctor?

 

[stonewall]

I don't "buy into" any rhetoric. I look at the cold hard facts and make up my own mind. I am sometimes pursuaded by clear cut logical uses of the facts. (I don't have preconcieved opinions which i'll stick to regardless of factual evidence to the contrary)

I do think our strategy can be better and more effective if we take into account the fact that collateral damage is a critical element in this war and has to be avoided at almost all costs. So there you have it, fire away.

I understand it can be unavoidable, and no other country on earth has gone to further lengths to invent and employ technologies that will limit it. But there has been so many incidents like this which seem to fuel more and more insurgents, which we respond back with more incidents like this. My point is, this cycle we're in doesn't seem to be getting us anywhere. But so many of us cling to our strategy like it's a religion.

Your thoughts doctor?

Again, this is not our strategy and it's not our tactics. These incidents are not as widespread as you make them out to be...it's just that every one is reported with much fanfare. I think you are applying a single incident to the overall war effort.

Speaking of doctors...go have your arm checked. It must hurt patting yourself on the back about your Chuck Norris-like ability to think clearly, logically, and with stunning insight. I have never met anyone with neither biases nor preconceived notions about anything until the facts are coldly and logically debated. Until now that is. Amazing. Your wife must hate arguing with you.

 

[E-handle]

Dear Mr. Kharma,

George Soros would like to award you with the order of the Pink Heart with Rainbow Clusters and a gift certificate to Starbucks in San Francisco.

 

[KarmaPolice]

KP, one of the many reasons we're there is b/c of the tactics used by Saddam to quench dissent. His tactics, however, didn't include calling you out on a message chat board. His tactics included things like chemical bombs, torture chambers, mass killings, torture, extortion, etc. If all the prior Iraqi regime did was throw cupcakes at each other on the internet, we wouldn't be there right now. But, that's typical of lefties such as yourself. You exaggerate all criticisms against you as an effort to shut you up or supress your opinions, or in the extreme case, compare it to the tactics of totalitarian regimes. In reality, it's just people with different positions telling you that you're wrong. Big difference in telling someone they're wrong and torturing or killing them. Maybe someday people will understand that.

And I apologize for my earlier comment calling you an imposter. I just found it hard to believe that a fellow military pilot was such a flaming leftie! It was easier to believe you were a socialist brit. My bad.

As far as exaggerating your opponents position to make their position clear, true I did do that in response. They didn't want to shut me up by throwing me into the torture chambers, but I wouldn't put it past them if they could. Haha. They just wanted to shut me up using bad logic, which is kind of like torture.

Calling me a flaming leftie? I don't even know how far right you must be to call me that based on what I've said.

 

[AdlerDriver]

Why don't we put the blame for this incident where it belongs? On the dudes that planted an IED and then hid out in a house with women and children. You have to know there are no combat pilots out there that would knowingly drop an LGB or a JDAM on a house with kids in it. Those kids died because a few guys knowingly and willingly put them in danger. Maybe next time the locals will tell 'em to get the hell out of the house the next time they plant a bomb and let themselves in.

SHACK!!! (As I point to the end of my nose)

 

[MarineGrunt]

I don't "buy into" any rhetoric. I look at the cold hard facts and make up my own mind. I am sometimes pursuaded by clear cut logical uses of the facts. (I don't have preconcieved opinions which i'll stick to regardless of factual evidence to the contrary)

I do think our strategy can be better and more effective if we take into account the fact that collateral damage is a critical element in this war and has to be avoided at almost all costs. So there you have it, fire away.

I'd also say that killing the enemy is a critical element. What did you want those troops to do? Knock on the door and ask, "excuse me, we're gonna blow up this building and just wanted to make sure there were no innocent people inside? No? Okaaaay...." You cannot have war without collateral damage. Care to take a guess how many Americans have died over there because there MIGHT be a risk of killing innocents? I can think of three off hand.

I understand it can be unavoidable, and no other country on earth has gone to further lengths to invent and employ technologies that will limit it. But there has been so many incidents like this which seem to fuel more and more insurgents, which we respond back with more incidents like this.

How many insugents were created by this attack? 0, 1, 2, 300? PLease tell me how you know and I might be able to get you a job at the Pentagon.

My point is, this cycle we're in doesn't seem to be getting us anywhere. But so many of us cling to our strategy like it's a religion.

Your thoughts doctor?

My thoughts? I still dont think you know what our strategy is. If so, why do you suppose we are clinging to it? I think it's called "winning."

 

[MarineGrunt]

They just wanted to shut me up using bad logic, which is kind of like torture.

Uh, we were using the same "logic" you were when you made the title of this post as an example as to why we think it's wrong.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I'd also say that killing the enemy is a critical element. What did you want those troops to do? Knock on the door and ask, "excuse me, we're gonna blow up this building and just wanted to make sure there were no innocent people inside? No? Okaaaay...." You cannot have war without collateral damage. Care to take a guess how many Americans have died over there because there MIGHT be a risk of killing innocents? I can think of three off hand.

How many insugents were created by this attack? 0, 1, 2, 300? PLease tell me how you know and I might be able to get you a job at the Pentagon.
My thoughts? I still dont think you know what our strategy is. If so, why do you suppose we are clinging to it? I think it's called "winning."

Here we go again, no I don't think the troops should have to go up and knock on the door, and I'm pretty sure there are other alternatives to both what happened and what you suggest I think should happen.

I don't claim to know exactly how many insurgents were created from this incident. The point, as I've stated before, is that we're making more than we're killing. Which isn't helping us WIN at all. Killing insurgents is critical, yes RAMBO, but if we make two for every one we kill does that make sense?

 

[stonewall]

As far as exaggerating your opponents position to make their position clear, true I did do that in response. They didn't want to shut me up by throwing me into the torture chambers, but I wouldn't put it past them if they could. Haha. They just wanted to shut me up using bad logic, which is kind of like torture.

Calling me a flaming leftie? I don't even know how far right you must be to call me that based on what I've said.

Hi pot, I'm kettle. You've used any number of logical fallacies over the past two pages. Ad Hominem attacks, stacking the deck, poisoning the wells, arguments to the future, argument by question, scare tactics, and emotional appeals are a few. Hey, it's what we do on this board.

However, your key problem lies in your assumption:

There have been collateral damage incidents.
Not worrying about collateral damage must be our overall strategy.
Doesn't everyone think we must change our strategy?

Incidents such as this one are NOT our strategy (or accepted tactics) for victory in Iraq. You've worded your posts and questions in such a manner that in order to defend the "strategy" we have to defend the collateral damage strike. The two are mutually exclusive and unrelated. But you knew that, didn't you?

And, clearly, anyone who hasn't pulled a trigger doesn't have any credibility on our strategy. And I'm an F-16 pilot, so I KNOW what I'm talking about.
(ad hominem and appeal to authority anyone?)

 

[Paris]

Why did we attack Iraq originally?
Why are we in Iraq now?
Is the U.S. safer as a result?

In my opinion, the military is playing janitor to the current idiot in office. He sends other people's children to die in a quagmire, blames it all on CNN, and the military has to come in to make it all work out. Why is it some of you guys associate a dissenting opinion with being unpatriotic(i.e. helping Al Jazerra). "You're either with or or against us" is feeble-minded drool best kept in old westerns.

As an aside, I don't think there was anything wrong with blowing up those insurgents.

 

[MarineGrunt]

The point, as I've stated before, is that we're making more than we're killing. Which isn't helping us WIN at all. Killing insurgents is critical, yes RAMBO, but if we make two for every one we kill does that make sense?

And my question is how do you know this?

 

[AdlerDriver]

Give the Iraqis some credit

See, I thought that too, and yes I agree, the blame for those dead women and kids rests solely on those insurgents. But let's look at our enemy. They routinely employ suicide bombing tactics. They don't care about putting their lives or the lives of those they "love" in danger. We killed insurgents, but don't you agree, in the blood vengance culture, we created a lot more, and are ultimately hurting our own objective?

The big question is, do actions like this (seems to be our strategy) get us closer to a stable and democratic Iraq, which we can all agree is what we want?

Karma,
I think you’re selling the average Iraqi pretty short. I think in general, they’re able to figure out what’s going on here.

What makes you think they can’t see this for exactly what it is? Some bad guys put some innocents in harm’s way and some of them end up dead (along with the bad guys). Is this now going to create “300 insurgents”? Most people with common sense are going to direct their outrage at the group acting illegally and cowardly using non-combatants to muddy the waters.

Iraqis are going to be pissed their women and children died, that’s for sure. I think most will be pissed at the insurgents and not apt to pick up a weapon and join the @ssholes who they know caused those deaths.

This theory of “creating insurgents” is just a liberal wet-dream that gets perpetuated in the media in the faint hope that it will actually start happening.

Oh….yeah… and I also need to wave the BS flag on this:

………………Please tell me you aren't so naive to think I read this story, then started questioning our strategy for success in Iraq.

I'm more interested in hearing from fellow military aviators on the topic of overall iraqi strategy than questioning the validity of that particular decision. I used that as an example.

If you started this thread in an attempt to hear from “fellow military aviators on the topic of overall Iraqi strategy…blah…blah….blah..” then why does the first line of your post start with this:

“This is a prime example of why the situation in Iraq is where it's at.”

Sounds to me like someone who “read this story and then started questioning our strategy for success in Iraq”.

 

[MarineGrunt]

Why did we attack Iraq originally?
Why are we in Iraq now?
Is the U.S. safer as a result?

In my opinion, the military is playing janitor to the current idiot in office. He sends other people's children to die in a quagmire, blames it all on CNN, and the military has to come in to make it all work out. Why is it some of you guys associate a dissenting opinion with being unpatriotic(i.e. helping Al Jazerra). "You're either with or or against us" is feeble-minded drool best kept in old westerns.

As an aside, I don't think there was anything wrong with blowing up those insurgents.

I dont even know where to start with this one.....!

 

[MarineGrunt]

21 Iraqi People Killed (2100 Coalition Allies Created)

http://www.wjla.com/headlines/0505/227683.html

 

[stonewall]

Why did we attack Iraq originally?
Why are we in Iraq now?
Is the U.S. safer as a result?

In my opinion, the military is playing janitor to the current idiot in office. He sends other people's children to die in a quagmire, blames it all on CNN, and the military has to come in to make it all work out. Why is it some of you guys associate a dissenting opinion with being unpatriotic(i.e. helping Al Jazerra). "You're either with or or against us" is feeble-minded drool best kept in old westerns.

As an aside, I don't think there was anything wrong with blowing up those insurgents.

That was the worst post on this board. I'm going to address you once, and that's it.

No children have died in Iraq. They are MEN and WOMEN who chose to serve their country. They were not "sent" by some evil puppet master. To imply any of the above minimizes their service and belittles their intelligence.

Nobody called KP unpatriotic. And nobody cares about Al Jazeera. We care when Al Jazeera picks up wild statements by public figures (politicians) and soldiers who say "we're losing, the insurgents are winning." That clearly DOES give the terrorists motivation to carry on and keep fighting.

Ascribing the statement "you're either with us or against us" to anyone here is a logical fallacy of the worst sort, as is calling us feeble minded. Nobody said that you idiot.

Nobody blamed anything on CNN. The president is likely smarter than you. Iraq is not a quagmire. Conjuring up images by inflammatory, Vietnam era recycled hippy garbage (OUR CHILDREN ARE BEING SENT TO DIE IN A QUAGMIRE!!) might've worked in the 70s (when 58K died and there was a draft) but it won't work today.

You know why we attacked Iraq, you know why we're there now, and nobody will ever be able to measure if we're safer (to your standard anyway). You know the arguments, so stop pretending you've never heard them. If you don't agree with them or like them, vote in the midterm elections in 06 and vote for somebody else in 08.

Now go away.