Three Insugents Killed (300 More Created)

[stonewall]

Hurting the war effort? Do you even remember what the war effort was? A stable and democratic Iraq right? That's why we're all in this right? Me questioning if some of these policies are getting us there is hardly fodder for Al Jazeera. But nice exaggeration. In no way did I suggest anything that would comfort the enemy. I guess I could do the same thing to you and extrapolate your logic. But I won't.

And neither did I insinuate my civil liberties were at risk. I merely call attention to the irony the MG was employing the tactics of Sadaam and other authoritarians to shut me up. Just like you are. Nothing I said can be construed as comfort to the enemy. I want victory in Iraq as much as you do.

Hurting morale? Questioning whether our tactics are getting us closer to acheiving our objective? I'm not even going to bother. People with your attitude have their mind made up and will only attack anyone or anything that contradicts their view.

Me and Ted huh? You argue like my wife.

Karma, if we were employing the tactics of Saddam we'd pull you of your house and shoot you. Then we'd shoot your wife. Your emotional appeal to "authoritarianism" was much more of stretch than anything I said.

I didn't say you hurt morale. Most of the guys over there fighting couldn't care less about your opinion. I said your comments, when relayed to the enemy, give them motivation to keep fighting. They can't beat us...only outlast us.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I guess we come from a different school of thought. I've been trained to do my job and keep my mouth shut. I'm a member of the military, not a civillian so I hold myself to different standards. Attitudes are contagious and they do effect morale. That is the point I am making. You read this story and you question our strategy. How do you know that this was not a sound combat decision?

I know why the "shut up and do your job" attitude is employed in our military. You really believe I should not consider what it is that we are involved in, and I shouldn't raise questions like this?

Please tell me you aren't so naive to think I read this story, then started questioning our strategy for success in Iraq.

I'm more interested in hearing from fellow military aviators on the topic of overall iraqi strategy than questioning the validity of that particular decision. I used that as an example.

 

[stonewall]

Why don't we put the blame for this incident where it belongs? On the dudes that planted an IED and then hid out in a house with women and children. You have to know there are no combat pilots out there that would knowingly drop an LGB or a JDAM on a house with kids in it. Those kids died because a few guys knowingly and willingly put them in danger. Maybe next time the locals will tell 'em to get the hell out of the house the next time they plant a bomb and let themselves in.

 

[Fury220]

I know why the "shut up and do your job" attitude is employed in our military. You really believe I should not consider what it is that we are involved in, and I shouldn't raise questions like this?

FI.com is not the place to do so. Do it over a beer in your own squadron...where people can see your face and understand your sincerity.

Don't do it on an internet message board in front of the world.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Karma, if we were employing the tactics of Saddam we'd pull you of your house and shoot you. Then we'd shoot your wife. Your emotional appeal to "authoritarianism" was much more of stretch than anything I said.

I didn't say you hurt morale. Most of the guys over there fighting couldn't care less about your opinion. I said your comments, when relayed to the enemy, give them motivation to keep fighting. They can't beat us...only outlast us.

The tactic of "shut up and don't question what we are doing" is a tactic used by authoritarian regimes. You are right, instead of threatening violence to back up your statement you employed bad arguments.

The hurting morale thing was aimed at MG. But again, soliciting opinions on if we should be killing them without making more for every one we kill hardly gives them comfort to hang on.

 

[MarineGrunt]

I know why the "shut up and do your job" attitude is employed in our military. You really believe I should not consider what it is that we are involved in, and I shouldn't raise questions like this?

So what is your problem with our strategy? I've asked the question, do you even know what it is?

Please tell me you aren't so naive to think I read this story, then started questioning our strategy for success in Iraq.

I wouldn't call it naive, unfortunately it's a reality with way to many Americans. The question is are you naive enough to buy into the rhetoric. Which if you are using this story as an example, you certainly are. Do you want us to not fight the enemy? Saldy enough, collateral damage is a part of war as much as we try to avoid it.

I'm more interested in hearing from fellow military aviators on the topic of overall iraqi strategy than questioning the validity of that particular decision. I used that as an example.

Why don't we hear what you think of our strategy first, so we don't have to assume that you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Why don't we put the blame for this incident where it belongs? On the dudes that planted an IED and then hid out in a house with women and children. You have to know there are no combat pilots out there that would knowingly drop an LGB or a JDAM on a house with kids in it. Those kids died because a few guys knowingly and willingly put them in danger. Maybe next time the locals will tell 'em to get the hell out of the house the next time they plant a bomb and let themselves in.

See, I thought that too, and yes I agree, the blame for those dead women and kids rests solely on those insurgents. But let's look at our enemy. They routinely employ suicide bombing tactics. They don't care about putting their lives or the lives of those they "love" in danger. We killed insurgents, but don't you agree, in the blood vengance culture, we created a lot more, and are ultimately hurting our own objective?

The big question is, do actions like this (seems to be our strategy) get us closer to a stable and democratic Iraq, which we can all agree is what we want?

 

[stonewall]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4577578.stm

This is a prime example of why the situation in Iraq is where it's at. This is not a slight to the men and women on the ground and in the air who do their jobs heroically. But is it too difficult for the policy makers to see how operations such as this are going to cause more problems than they solve in the long run?

It's hard for me to understand how anybody can see Operation Iraqi Freedom as a success anymore, considering the price. I'd be interested to see what the folks here have to say about this. Anybody realizing the emporer has no clothes?

This is merely soliciting opinions? Your last paragraph lays down where you stand regarding the war and goes beyond simply saying "hey, whadda y'all think?"

Obviously, I don't think my positions are bad. However, what you say in the last paragraph about the price of this war and the CINC clearly gives the enemy hope and strengthens their resolve to keep fighting. If they can get you to say it ain't worth it anymore, they can get the average american to easily say it. That, my friend, helps the resolve of the terrorists in Iraq.

Stop saying stuff and then turning around and saying "I didn't say that." Are you taking arguing lessons from your wife??

 

[Deuce130]

Jump to whatever conclusion you need to that suits your preconcieved notion of anyone who utters anything contradictory to your viewpoint MG.

I'd be interested to hear how a thread on FI.com about the logic of some of our Iraq policies is going to undermine the war effort. THAT kind of attitude smacks of Facism and Authoritarianism, the very kind of attitude that was employed in the previous Iraqi regime. Kind of ironic.

KP, one of the many reasons we're there is b/c of the tactics used by Saddam to quench dissent. His tactics, however, didn't include calling you out on a message chat board. His tactics included things like chemical bombs, torture chambers, mass killings, torture, extortion, etc. If all the prior Iraqi regime did was throw cupcakes at each other on the internet, we wouldn't be there right now. But, that's typical of lefties such as yourself. You exaggerate all criticisms against you as an effort to shut you up or supress your opinions, or in the extreme case, compare it to the tactics of totalitarian regimes. In reality, it's just people with different positions telling you that you're wrong. Big difference in telling someone they're wrong and torturing or killing them. Maybe someday people will understand that.

And I apologize for my earlier comment calling you an imposter. I just found it hard to believe that a fellow military pilot was such a flaming leftie! It was easier to believe you were a socialist brit. My bad.

 

[stonewall]

See, I thought that too, and yes I agree, the blame for those dead women and kids rests solely on those insurgents. But let's look at our enemy. They routinely employ suicide bombing tactics. They don't care about putting their lives or the lives of those they "love" in danger. We killed insurgents, but don't you agree, in the blood vengance culture, we created a lot more, and are ultimately hurting our own objective?

The big question is, do actions like this (seems to be our strategy) get us closer to a stable and democratic Iraq, which we can all agree is what we want?

This is not our strategy. This was not policy, this was not the goal of this strike. This was an accident caused by the insurgents.

And, like MG said earlier, if the vengeance culture is prevelant in the Middle East, anti-insurgents are being bred much faster. They have killed many times more Iraqis and Muslims (intentionally, mind you) than any American forces.

What's more, I think more and more people ARE against the insurgency these days...you just won't hear that on CNN, AP, Reuters or the BBC. I'm not a reflexive lefty hater...but those "news organizations" have dropped the ball repeatedly on what's really going on over there, from taking bribes from Saddam to employing stringers to being used as PR for pre-planned terrorist attacks. There's a reason that story was reported so prominently in the UK.

 

[KarmaPolice]

So what is your problem with our strategy? I've asked the question, do you even know what it is?

I wouldn't call it naive, unfortunately it's a reality with way to many Americans. The question is are you naive enough to buy into the rhetoric. Which if you are using this story as an example, you certainly are. Do you want us to not fight the enemy? Saldy enough, collateral damage is a part of war as much as we try to avoid it.

Why don't we hear what you think of our strategy first, so we don't have to assume that you have no idea what you are talking about.

I don't "buy into" any rhetoric. I look at the cold hard facts and make up my own mind. I am sometimes pursuaded by clear cut logical uses of the facts. (I don't have preconcieved opinions which i'll stick to regardless of factual evidence to the contrary)

I do think our strategy can be better and more effective if we take into account the fact that collateral damage is a critical element in this war and has to be avoided at almost all costs. So there you have it, fire away.

I understand it can be unavoidable, and no other country on earth has gone to further lengths to invent and employ technologies that will limit it. But there has been so many incidents like this which seem to fuel more and more insurgents, which we respond back with more incidents like this. My point is, this cycle we're in doesn't seem to be getting us anywhere. But so many of us cling to our strategy like it's a religion.

Your thoughts doctor?

 

[stonewall]

I don't "buy into" any rhetoric. I look at the cold hard facts and make up my own mind. I am sometimes pursuaded by clear cut logical uses of the facts. (I don't have preconcieved opinions which i'll stick to regardless of factual evidence to the contrary)

I do think our strategy can be better and more effective if we take into account the fact that collateral damage is a critical element in this war and has to be avoided at almost all costs. So there you have it, fire away.

I understand it can be unavoidable, and no other country on earth has gone to further lengths to invent and employ technologies that will limit it. But there has been so many incidents like this which seem to fuel more and more insurgents, which we respond back with more incidents like this. My point is, this cycle we're in doesn't seem to be getting us anywhere. But so many of us cling to our strategy like it's a religion.

Your thoughts doctor?

Again, this is not our strategy and it's not our tactics. These incidents are not as widespread as you make them out to be...it's just that every one is reported with much fanfare. I think you are applying a single incident to the overall war effort.

Speaking of doctors...go have your arm checked. It must hurt patting yourself on the back about your Chuck Norris-like ability to think clearly, logically, and with stunning insight. I have never met anyone with neither biases nor preconceived notions about anything until the facts are coldly and logically debated. Until now that is. Amazing. Your wife must hate arguing with you.

 

[E-handle]

Dear Mr. Kharma,

George Soros would like to award you with the order of the Pink Heart with Rainbow Clusters and a gift certificate to Starbucks in San Francisco.

 

[KarmaPolice]

KP, one of the many reasons we're there is b/c of the tactics used by Saddam to quench dissent. His tactics, however, didn't include calling you out on a message chat board. His tactics included things like chemical bombs, torture chambers, mass killings, torture, extortion, etc. If all the prior Iraqi regime did was throw cupcakes at each other on the internet, we wouldn't be there right now. But, that's typical of lefties such as yourself. You exaggerate all criticisms against you as an effort to shut you up or supress your opinions, or in the extreme case, compare it to the tactics of totalitarian regimes. In reality, it's just people with different positions telling you that you're wrong. Big difference in telling someone they're wrong and torturing or killing them. Maybe someday people will understand that.

And I apologize for my earlier comment calling you an imposter. I just found it hard to believe that a fellow military pilot was such a flaming leftie! It was easier to believe you were a socialist brit. My bad.

As far as exaggerating your opponents position to make their position clear, true I did do that in response. They didn't want to shut me up by throwing me into the torture chambers, but I wouldn't put it past them if they could. Haha. They just wanted to shut me up using bad logic, which is kind of like torture.

Calling me a flaming leftie? I don't even know how far right you must be to call me that based on what I've said.

 

[AdlerDriver]

Why don't we put the blame for this incident where it belongs? On the dudes that planted an IED and then hid out in a house with women and children. You have to know there are no combat pilots out there that would knowingly drop an LGB or a JDAM on a house with kids in it. Those kids died because a few guys knowingly and willingly put them in danger. Maybe next time the locals will tell 'em to get the hell out of the house the next time they plant a bomb and let themselves in.

SHACK!!! (As I point to the end of my nose)