There Is A Ta!!

[~~~^~~~]

Candidly, your contract TA is weak based on what I have read on this board. Our ASA contract is 5 years old and we have better per diem ($1.50), better pay rates, 100% DH and CNX.

Send it back. Take a strike authorization vote. Enjoy the company of your buddies burning wood around a barrell if you have to.

Comair management has requested that the Comair pilots re-open their contract. It could be that as other posters have mentioned, Chautauqua is starting to drag the rest of us down to your level, who knows.

I do know that we are in this business together at our end of the industry. If you walk, save a sign for me to carry with you. There are plenty of flights to the Airport Administration building in IND for me to catch and I will buy lunch.

~~~^~~~

 

[aewanabe]

piedmont pansy

Hey DHC d**khead:
Lest you forget, CHQ was flying for Allegheny/U back in the eighties when you became a "wholly screwed" of the REAL Piedmont. So while we were providing USAir with services and revenue you were working for a COMPETITOR. Then when U bought Piedmont (and pissed everyone in the south off) you guys came back and started taking OUR flying away.

Sound ridiculous? Yep, but just as true as you bitching about contract carriers and their pilots. Once more, and read this slowly:
We do not decide where we fly. We do not decide who we fly for. We do not sit in the crew rooms and say: "gee, I hope XYZ airlines loses some more flying so I can go to New Bern and Salisbury."
I wish you guys all the best, I have a couple friends there and hate what's happening to y'all. BUT, anyone associated with U and group has seen this coming for the last decade, at least. And I'm sick of listening to the whiny bitch rant and raves about us. Just remember, ALL us "commuter pukes" are taking flying that used to be done by 737s and F100s at the airlines most of us used to dream about working for.

(end of soapbox)

Fins:
Yeah, in some areas the TA is a little weak compared to what some have. A couple points. Not only did we at first glance NOT give up anything that was good at CHQ (think days off, no Junior Manning) we made substantial gains on many of the worst areas (think second-year F/O pay, 37/44/50 seat CA pay difference, NO WX/MX protection). We gained some things that have never existed here, such as Vision coverage and a Commuter clause. We agreed to rates for larger SJs that are supposedly industry-leading. AND we did all this in the face of the company racing to create an alter-ego that promised work rules and pay worse than what we already had. I think our EC did a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ed fine job with the constraints they've been faced with. And since we were one of the carriers near the bottom, I think we've managed to put a helluva patch on the hull of this leaky boat (the regional industry). Anyone who thinks every new contract by every carrier will be industry-leading has their head in the sand.

PS:
After next year, our Per diem will be better than yours, at least until you guys get a new contract. And we will have 100 percent pay protection if the carrier meets completion factor targets. Again, not perfect but a helluva improvement over what we have now.

 

[Strikefinder]

Ah, my cynicism wins again. I had this feeling that no matter what our contract came out to be, there would be a vast array of critics who work for a variety of companies who would characterize its contents as "dragging the industry down". I honestly believe that if we signed a contract with $100/hour third year FO rates and every other work rule advantage you can name, but our per diem was a nickel less than somebody's, soon the Mesa comparisons would come streaming out from every direction.

First of all, we are not looking at a Mesa contract. I have had a lot of positive experiences with Mesa's people while jumpseating in the system, and because of the way I've been treated, I'm always reluctant to jump on the Mesa bashing bandwagon. That said, it is a horrible contract that they accepted, and it doesn't even compare to our TA. As has been mentioned, SkyWest, Mesa, and ACA have all signed concessionary agreements (though, in ACA's defense, it's been rendered null and void by their United business loss, so whether those rates will be reinstated is anybody's guess), along with Piedmont and Allegheny. PSA's contract, as far as I can see, ain't no model agreement either. TSA's rates are a lot lower, and they just signed an extension, along with Junior Manning and several other areas in which work rules come up short of our own (BTW, I'm told SkyWest, ExpressOne, and CoEx have Junior Manning as well, and I'm certain there's others). Our TA looks a lot better than Eagle's contract, too. Express One still doesn't pay a dime to you while in training (no hotel, no jumpseat privis, nothing...), and their pay rates are also lower than the TA. I also know CoEx is in negotiations, and I'd love to see them come out way ahead of everybody, but for right now, we come out significantly ahead of their old contract, and our old contract wasn't much behind theirs, either.

ASA has some advantages, I admit, in their current (and several year old) contract. The pay rates I have for them are not higher than our TA, though; They're actually slightly lower. ASA's per diem is 5 cents higher right now, true. I also understand that you are in negotiations, and I wish the best for all of you. However, your contract, along with ComAir and Horizon's, are unfortunately the exception, not the norm.

Our TA pay rates are sizably above any industry average that I've seen taken, and we enjoy a number of work rules (no Junior Manning, and we have 12 days off for line holders, guaranteed). We have better pay rates than SkyWest on the table for 70 seaters, and higher 90 seat pay (if it comes down the pipe) than anyone else. Though we didn't get back pay, we'll all get a 4% bonus for signing the contract for all gross pay accrued since November of '01.

In addition, we faced the whipsaw sister company, Republic, which we've effectively neutralized while achieving significant contract advancements.

Of course, none of us have seen the final product, and we can't assess all of the finer points about it until we see the final product. But the confirmed details paint a picture of a well negotiated, if not perfect, agreement.

Finally, to address the "wholly-owned" versus "contract" carrier issue, I don't buy it. As was stated, Chautauqua has been around for a long time; We didn't start up three years ago with the express purpose of stealing everyone else's flying. And most of the WO companies were, at one point, not wholly owned by their current parent company (Piedmont, Allegheny, ComAir, ASA, to name a few). I think it's the case of the pot calling the kettle black just a bit, don't you think? There are a lot of reasons why we are able to achieve growth that others are not as well; For instance, much of our aircraft financing is secured internally, so companies like USAirways who cannot finance themselves all of the aircraft of this size they would like to operate, are forced to look for companies that are able to do that independantly. In other words, they couldn't buy some of you folks aircraft even if there weren't a CHQ, since there's no money in the pot to buy them.

There are those among us here at CHQ who are, well, jerks, and I apologize for their behavior. But most of us feel the same way about our competitors--we wish you the best of luck, and if you outperform us, can provide services that we cannot, or can operate more efficiently than we can, we bear no ill will should you receive growth that we would enjoy. I'm not going to lose any sleep, either, about our management successfully securing more business for our company. I think that anyone who believes that this TA of ours is going to destroy the regional airline industry, needs to take a look at the rest of the industry a little more; I think you'll find you've got a lot bigger fish to fry.

 

[PilotRon]

I am a proud CHQ Pilot. The other day I ran into an old friend that works for a US Airways WO. He tried to lay the same CHQ, MESA ruining the business on me. When I walked away thinking about what he told me, I realized that it was just plain old jealousy, and the inability to accept his own problems. Plain and simple. Times are hard at the WO's and the natural reaction to anger and jealousy is to lash out and blame others for your problems. Grow up! You took the job at the WO because you interviewed there and that job was offered to you! If CHQ had interviewed you first, you would be working there. (Don't give me any I wouldn never have interviewed at CHQ bull either) So, you got what happened to your company, for that I am truly sorry. I wish we could all make a good living doing what we love to do so much, but in these days and times it just doesn't work that way. There are many great pilots out of work right now with more to come, but most realize that in this screwed up industry anything can and will happen.

BASICALLY, OWN YOUR PROBLEMS!!! Stop laying the blame on everyone else. Be angry, I sure would be, but I would also aim that anger where it belongs. First, your parent company for putting you in that position. Second, yourself for not having the self-confidence to accept the things you cannot change, but have to blame on others....
I sure hope you don't teach others and your children to blame others for their own problems.

Good Luck, your gonna need it with that attitude

 

[Britpilot]

Aren't there enough pilots in our own country that need jobs?

Buy American!! (and I don't mean the airline)

I am an immigrant (just like a lot of people in this country) who has become a citizen.
Does this make me American enough for you? If you have a problem with the policies of the INS you can always contact your Congressman or the INS, I'm sure they will love to hear what you have to say.


To Kepjet,
Apology accepted, just don't do it again.

 

[TWAER]

Piedmont, your an Idiot. You obviously have not been in the industry very long. People like you give your company a bad name and WO's in general a bad name. Like the above post said, Why look to blame someone else when you can only blame your company and your poor decision to take a job at an airline that relies on (HA HA HA) Us Air for financial support. CHQ has been a proven US AIR carrier probably before you were even born. I wish everyone in this entire foolish industry all the luck in the world, but look at the writing on the wall. Airlines without money can't but too many AC for the WO airlines. How the hell is that CHQ, TSA, Mesa, ACA, Skywest fault? Do we decide how to run US, AA, Delta??? Have you ever thought about how nice it would be not to soley depend on US for all of your flying? Maybe if you were not WO that would be possilbe. Until then, QUIT BLAMING EVERONE ELSE FOR THE PROBLEMS OF YOUR OWN AIRLINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Piedmont DHC-8]

its a race to the bottom

I have been in this industry 3.5 years, and I agree alot of this is US Airways fault. One thing I am not is an idiot! The contract folks are underbidding the wholly owned airlines because its a race to the bottom. I don't see how this helps anybody. All this does is hurt the whole industry. All the wholly owned pilots want is what should rightfully should be ours. Instead all you contract carriers come in and say we can out bid them to take all of the flying.

Usairways has plenty of money to buy a few hundred jets for this **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ed Midatlantic escapade, so why can't Piedmont get some?
I will tell you why because the contract carriers come in and say we can do it cheaper. Tell me how this helps the industry? Maybe it provides a job to some poor sap at Air Midwest or Mesa with crappy work rules and substandard pay. But the greator industry is hurt by the whole thing.
There I have said my peace.
my previous post was not a personal attack on anybody in particular just at contract pilots in general, I hope nobody was too offended.....

 

[PilotRon]

Re: its a race to the bottom

I have been in this industry 3.5 years, and I agree alot of this is US Airways fault. One thing I am not is an idiot! The contract folks are underbidding the wholly owned airlines because its a race to the bottom. I don't see how this helps anybody. All this does is hurt the whole industry. All the wholly owned pilots want is what should rightfully should be ours. Instead all you contract carriers come in and say we can out bid them to take all of the flying.

One thing i can say for certain is that YOU are the idiot...

CHQ has been a US Airways regional since 1976.

Nothing is "righfully yours". Your company is doing "it" to you... not CHQ, not MESA. You need to wake up and smell the coffee. There is no love there from US Airways to their WO. TEll me why you think they own them? Why doesn't US Airways do ALL their flying in house? Because they can't. plain and simple. They can't afford what it would take to do it, so they MUST look for outside help. We at CHQ have been that help for many years.

Don't blame your problems on others... It sounds like you are simply jealous. I don't blame you. Between all the WO's all you hear is complaints and problems.

Sorry you didn't go to work for a carrier with a better attitude.

 

[h25b]

"All the wholly owned pilots want is what should rightfully should be ours."

Exactly where is this list of God given rights that everyone keeps running to when the stuff hits the fan. I hate to be the one to enlighten everyone here, but PilotRon's right... The first favor we all need to do for ourselves is realize there is no such list and stop diluting ourselves by believing that there is. It ain't going to get you anywhere.

 

[Snakum]

I'm not airline pilot, so I'm sure someone will remind me it's not my business. But I've notice a pattern here over the last three years ...

Mainline gripes about 'Replacement Jets' ... "You're taking our flying!" ... the regional guys say "Don't blame us, it's management."

Regional guys gripe about LC/Contract Carriers ... "You're taking our flying!" ... the contract/low-cost carrier guys say "Don't blame us, it's management."

I hope my employer makes it big enough for a new B350 one day. Maybe we can get a 121 cert. and bid on a daily shuttle from GSO to CLT. I can hear the contract guys saying "You're taking our flying!" ... and I'll say "Don't blame me, it's management."

I just thought it was funny ... that's all.

Minh
(I hope everyone's flying soon because I still wanna instruct and I need you guys to all move back up the food chain.)

 

[TWAER]

Re: contract carriers now hear this!

All you contract pansies piss off. You are the reason we are in this mess as an industry. I work for Piedmont, and our lively hood is at stake because Mesa, Cha, TSA, and frickin Midway, Colgan and the rest of you frickin contract boy pricks are taking our jobs. So go f*ck yourself all over the CLT terminal. I don't want to hear any more of your BS about substandard wages, and per diem and the rest of your substandard sh*ty contracts.

I suggest you go back and read what you wrote!! I guess calling us contract pansies in not a personal attack. Let me ask you something. Do you think you are a better person or better pilot than someone from a "contract carrier"? Do you think we hire those who are not as "fortunate" to be hired by an almight WO. Give me a break buddy. Show me where in a contract anywhere that says that all the express flying done by US belongs to you. Maybe your poor excuse for management doesn't have the balls to get in gear and get more flying.

And one other thing. I'll go F*uck myself in the CLT terminal while you watch from the observation parking lot next to 18R. Because in a few years, that's as close to the airport as you will be allowed.

Not a personal attack my ASS

 

[KingAirer]

I believe a more detailed TA outline is available online. Looks good.

 

[Webslinger]

Come on Gentlemen!

Please Gents, cant we all just get along....its exhausting reading all of these "Im right and your wrong" posts. WHO CARES who has the BEST contract or whos flying what....if you have a job and your flying, and your paying your bills- be thankful !! The economy will turn around and when it does all of you "girls" can compare who is flying "what" and who has the best contract and peir-deim and who is suffereing from the classic "Big airplane-small penis" complex. I know its tough out there....the last 2 companies I have worked for went bankrupt....THATS the FLIPPIN INDUSTRY...if you cant take the heat, get out of the kitchen or go flip burgers...and yes, I have paid my dues in spades and am not an Aviation whore.....just my .02 cents worth ladies and gents...we are all trained professionals, lets at least pretend to act civilized towards each other. Take care....let the bashing and name calling begin for those who cant resist.

 

[KingAirer]

Full TA now available online. Nice work guys.

 

[mckpickle]

POST IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm dieing to see it!

 

[Piedmont DHC-8]

whatever.......you all say

All I am going to say now is this: If you contract carriers didn't exist we wouldn't be having this conversation or these problems. It probably doesn't matter anyway, because in a few months all the wholly owned pilots will be working for the contract carriers after US Assways goes chap 7 and we all get put out on the street.
keep on flamin me I wouldn't expect anything less.

 

[Brother Francis]

Who is John Galt?

Piedmont DHC-8,

When you can correctly answer the question posed above-and there is a correct answer- you will perhaps have a better understanding of the origin of the position in which the U-WO's find themselves.

Perhaps not.

 

[PilotRon]

Re: whatever.......you all say

All I am going to say now is this: If you contract carriers didn't exist we wouldn't be having this conversation or these problems. It probably doesn't matter anyway, because in a few months all the wholly owned pilots will be working for the contract carriers after US Assways goes chap 7 and we all get put out on the street.
keep on flamin me I wouldn't expect anything less.

I don't want to flame you anymore. I just want to know your name so I can let CHQ know not to hire you!

 

[Simon Says]

Will somebody please post the TA.

 

[Piedmont DHC-8]

already applied

I already applied at sh!ttaco and wasn't very impressed. This was about 3 and a half years ago. I think I will apply at some of the better ones