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There goes your job ....

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Do they email you the talking points, or do you just watch a lot of Fox (RNC apparatchik) News? I hope you were not this worried about the wealthy folks bottom lines back in 05 and 07 when you were looking for wages increases. I know I'm not.

So screw the uninsured as long as I gets mine. Is that it? Never mind that they are a drain on the overall health care system (everyone knows the best care can be found at your local E.R.) and we end up paying for the inefficiency of it all it in the end. http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/233530/july-14-2009/the-word---guns--credit--and-corn

Thanks Stalin for your comments. Say hello to Karl Marx for me. Think of it this way, the wealthy Americans drive production for everyone else if they spend more - it's like a domino effect. If the wealthy reduce their buying, everyone gets hit.

What everyone seems to forget is that tax REVENUES under Bush were the absolute highest in history after the tax cuts - revenues that could have been used to fund many social programs. People had more discretionary income and they spent it. Too bad Bush squandered it with war-related spending (2 wars!) and expanding the Fed government (anti-Republican). Bush totally blew it and he has ruined the Republican party for now.

Lowering taxes helps everyone via increased personal spending. Higher taxes provides a disincentive to work hard and it causes wealthy people to look for ways to avoid taxes via tax attorneys, etc. Look at what is happening in high-tax California - there is an exodus of wealthy people and small business owners who can't afford the taxes and California health-care related costs. High taxes don't work because business owners choose to avoid adding people (who are otherwise unemployed and not generating tax revenue) and they look to global outsourcing and adding technology instead. Higher taxes will hurt our employment rates even more - THANKS OBAMA (SOCIALIST)!!!!!!!! I guess you get what you pay for...
 
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An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before,
but had once failed an entire class.

--------------------------------------------

That class had insisted that Obama's socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.


The professor then said, "OK,
we will have an experiment in this class on Obama's plan".


All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade so no one would fail and no one would receive an A.


After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B.
The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy.


As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little.
The second test average was a D!
No one was happy.


When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.

The scores never increased as bickering,
blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.


All failed, to their great surprise, and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.


Could not be any simpler than that.

I call Shenanigans on this one. Source please. Sounds like a made up story from the likes of Rush Limbaugh or Glenn Beck.
 
The electrical engineer in me says ...

The economy is like an electronic circuit. You add IMPEDANCE and you slow down current flow (or currency flow).

Wasteful government spending on health care (which is against the COTUS) ... is like parasite drag on an airplane ... it produces no lift to the economy ... while tax cuts for the rich ignite the economy....

Which is worse for general aviation...

This horrible tax increase on our customers... or the puny charges of proposed User fees or $25 or so for an approach? Which affects our pax more?
 
Why is the solution for so many of you ALWAYS more and more government control? Seriously..... where does this instinct come from? Seems to me that it may come from the same place that compels many of you to label anyone who disagrees with you on this issue as some callous and greedy hate-monger that just doesn't care about "poor" people.

Can you even realize how frustrating that is? That YOU who believe in this illogical solution are claiming to be the sympathetic and noble righteous humanitarians?!?!

Seems to me that YOU are the "greedy" ones. The ones who want to stick your hands in anothers wallet and force them to finance a program that history has proven will lead to shortages and rationing and less innovation and lower quality etc etc etc not to mention further economic destruction in a RECESSION of all times!?!?!?! Who is being "greedy" here????

Is it not possible for you to see the role that government has already played in creating the very problems with healthcare they are now trying to fix? Are you not willing to even entertain the idea that government over-regulation in medicine is a major cause of the high prices, and lack of coverage, and disfunctional bureaucracy?

Wait... nevermind.....
 
Why is the solution for so many of you ALWAYS more and more government control? Seriously..... where does this instinct come from? Seems to me that it may come from the same place that compels many of you to label anyone who disagrees with you on this issue as some callous and greedy hate-monger that just doesn't care about "poor" people.

Can you even realize how frustrating that is? That YOU who believe in this illogical solution are claiming to be the sympathetic and noble righteous humanitarians?!?!

Seems to me that YOU are the "greedy" ones. The ones who want to stick your hands in anothers wallet and force them to finance a program that history has proven will lead to shortages and rationing and less innovation and lower quality etc etc etc not to mention further economic destruction in a RECESSION of all times!?!?!?! Who is being "greedy" here????

Is it not possible for you to see the role that government has already played in creating the very problems with healthcare they are now trying to fix? Are you not willing to even entertain the idea that government over-regulation in medicine is a major cause of the high prices, and lack of coverage, and disfunctional bureaucracy?

Wait... nevermind.....

Awesome. Very well said. The most rediculous part of this is that they are wanting to spend trillions more in a RECESSION! Have we not already spent enough!? Fix the damn economy first before worrying about this other crap!
 
I am starting to agree with some of the arguments against healthcare reform. No one is ENTITLED to healthcare. As Gunfyter says, it would be better if everyone could afford it.

But costs continue to go up in healthcare during good times and in bad times. Median household incomes, unfortunately, have not nor will it ever keep up with healthcare increases. So the only way for any of us to keep coverage will be our willingness to accept decreases in coverage.

Along with decreases in coverage, we will need to accept higher premiums and copays. Its just that way it is.

I also believe we should see a reduction in Veteran benefits regarding VA hospitals and care. We cannot continue to support all sectors of our population regarding healthcare including retired military. Full payments should be paid if physically disabled due to military action or only if putting in 30 years or more of active service.

I just don't see how we can continue to afford funding a large, big government entitlement program without decreasing benefits just like the private sector is doing. And benefits should be limited to only those who put in a full time career. This will maximize the benefit to those who put in the most time and actually earn the full benefit. Those who put in the minimal amount of time or do reserve duty can earn wages to cover their healthcare in the private sector. Or work for a company which provides healthcare.

We have to get fiscally conservative again. We need to keep the government out of the equation while making cuts in programs that pay out entitlements to those who haven't earned it or put in enough time for the benefit.

I was expecting to have company paid healthcare retirement benefits after 30 years at my current company but that went away a couple years ago. Just the sign of the times and we ALL need to take cuts. Especially from any government program.
 
Sky,

I am not against reforming health care ... just don't want the government to run it or the taxpayer to fund it ....

1. As far as no one able to afford it ... I see ads all day long on TV that for the price of a pack of cigarettes a day ... you can have real health insurance .... I think most of the people without health care are smokers so I don't wanna hear they cant afford health insurance.

$10 bucks a day for a family. I looked at these plans and they are all most people need.

2. Drug companies: They are ripping us off with the help of government.


 
Hi!

If we change to Universial Health Care, it will be hello to some jobs that we are losing now, as our crappy (about #34 worldwide, even though we spend the most money) health care system makes us less competitive worldwide.

Toyota was recently deciding between Tucson and Ontario for a new plant. They went with Ontario, because individuals pay more taxes in Ontario than in Tucson. Since Canada has Universal Health Care, Toyota wouldn't have to pay health care costs for their employees.

I realize that changing our Health Care system is scary, because change is scary, but if we improve our Heath Care System, it will be better than the old one. Our system has a LOT of room for improvement.

cliff
NBO
 
The economic and tax revenue pies

There are many things about economics and mathematics that most people don't know about, don't understand, or are capable of understanding but don't want to believe because it doesn't jive with political beliefs. The economic and revenue(tax revenue) pies are perfect examples of this.

First of all, one needs to understand that the economic and tax revenue pies are not fixed in size. Each can grow and shrink. Another important issue is their relationship with each other. All things being equal, the revenue pie is directly proportional to the economic pie. Growing the economic pie will automatically increase the size of the tax pie. However, simply increasing the tax pie (raising taxes) will not increase the size of the economic pie. This is because it robs the pie of the stuff it needs to grow, which is of course money, and gives it to the federal government. It is not that simple either because you have to consider the economic growth as a result of government spending (ie govt jobs, defense spending, etc). However, they never give as much as they take.

I respectfully disagree. Less tax revenue from the rich means somebody else would have to shoulder the load. Namely, You and I, and the rest of the middle class.

That is inaccurate. This argument makes assumptions and avoids basic economic facts. First, this argument assumes that the tax pie is fixed. This is not accurate. 2nd, for this argument to be valid, when taxes are cut on one individual or "class' of taxpayers, they then must be raised on a second individual, or "class" of tax payers. This is not what happens. Tax cuts for the rich do not raise taxes on or increase the tax burden on the middle class in any way. Now, one can certainly argue that in this scenario, more of a percentage of the federal taxes are paid by the middle class. However, it is all smoke and mirrors. This higher percentage DOES NOT translate into a higher amount that is paid and therefore is not an increased burden on any individual and therefore any "class" of people.

Democrats have been successful in using the argument that the Bush tax cuts have "Shifted the tax burden to the middle class." This a BS argument created by democrats to pray on the economic ignorance of the population. It is a BS argument for 2 reasons, the first of which I stated above. The 2nd reason its BS is because the Bush tax cuts actually resulted in "the rich" paying a higher percentage of the federal tax burden. This happened because everyone who paid taxes got a tax cut and it shrunk the overall size of the tax pie, initially. The tax pie actually grew tremendously following the tax cuts because of the resulting increase in the economic pie.

While the housing and financial sector started this recession, but it is primarily sustained because of less spending from the middle class.
Naturally...
If the middle class has to continue to shoulder the extra loads in tax obligations that the rich is avoiding, than the middle class' spending will continue to be depressed.
So by this logic, only by increase taxes on the rich will you have more money to spend? You and I are not shouldering anything. Our taxes have not increased. No one in the middle or poor class has had any tax increases. This argument is completely illogical for the reasons stated above. As evidence, following is the federal tax burden on a family of four making $70k in 1998 and 2007. This is one example but they all play out the same.

1998;
Taxable Income: $52,100
Federal Tax: $8,290
Payroll Taxes: $5,355
Total Fed Tax: $13,645 (19.5%)

2007;
Taxable Income: $45,700
Federal Tax: $4,073
Payroll Taxes: $5,355
Total Fed Tax: $9,428 (13.5%)

Where is it that this typical family has less money as a result of those tax cuts on the rich? Where is the extra load that this family is shouldering, holding them down?
 
Additionally I would emphasize tax revenues INCREASED when the rates were cut.

Why?

Because the rich could afford private jets ... which meant Fractionals made money and paid corporate taxes ... they hired pilots who paid income taxes ... they bought airplanes from OEMs who paid corporate taxes ... they bought fuel and services from FBOs caterers LIMO companies and on and on who paid corporate taxes ... Look at all that tax revenue generated by giving tax cuts to the rich ...

Now with these increases ... the process will reverse ... no tax revenues will generate ... but unemployment and bailouts spending will result ....
 
When I get taxed more or have a unforeseen circumstance cost me money at the small business I run it motivates me to get creative and make more money. So it may not be as bad as everyone thinks.
 
When I get taxed more or have a unforeseen circumstance cost me money at the small business I run it motivates me to get creative and make more money. So it may not be as bad as everyone thinks.

Let me guess..... You get "creative" and find a way to pass this cost on to your customer through higher prices. Or you cut back on one of your vendors or suppliers and their business is affected negatively. Or you sacrifice quality. Or your employees work harder for the same wage.

How exactly is this "not as bad as everyone thinks"????

Or if you somehow innovated and found a way to increase revenue without sacrificing any of the things I mentioned.... and you sit down to balance the budget at the end of the year and then REALIZE how much you could have made without the added tax.... how does that make you feel? Do you think you would have spent any of that "extra" money that went to taxes?

If so, I'm sure that the person who owns the business you would have spent it at would have been very thankful for some added revenue to help off-set the cost of those new taxes he couldn't find a "creative" way to get around!
 
When I get taxed more or have a unforeseen circumstance cost me money at the small business I run it motivates me to get creative and make more money. So it may not be as bad as everyone thinks.

Imagine how motivated you would be if your company tax rate jumped to 70%+.
 
When I get taxed more or have a unforeseen circumstance cost me money at the small business I run it motivates me to get creative and make more money. So it may not be as bad as everyone thinks.
Yes ... a lot of fractional owners got motivated to cash in their shares of jets, downgrade airplanes, or cut back on their flying!

It all means one thing ... "there goes your job!"
 
Hi!
Toyota was recently deciding between Tucson and Ontario for a new plant. They went with Ontario, because individuals pay more taxes in Ontario than in Tucson. Since Canada has Universal Health Care, Toyota wouldn't have to pay health care costs for their employees.
So you want more jobs which, due to taxes, pay less?
 
I respectfully disagree. Less tax revenue from the rich means somebody else would have to shoulder the load. Namely, You and I, and the rest of the middle class. If you recall, RTS said that during his interview with CNBC: the owner's leisure travel has not dropped much, it is the business travel that dropped because of the recession.

While the housing and financial sector started this recession, but it is primarily sustained because of less spending from the middle class. If the middle class has to continue to shoulder the extra loads in tax obligations that the rich is avoiding, than the middle class' spending will continue to be depressed. So it'd prolong this recession and the fractional (business traveler's) recovery and future growth.
This contradicts your position...we're being held back because of less spending by the middle class. Yet you're supporting a measure which keeps money from reaching the open market (Taxes)

More Taxes= Less Spending= Stagnant Economy
 
So you want more jobs which, due to taxes, pay less?
Canada is lowering their Corporate Tax rate to 15% ... The US rate is 35%.

Which do you think costs more?

Health care for employees ... or the 20% more in tax the US charges Toyota than Canada does?

Companies are moving to Canada because of the lower Corporate tax rates ....


BTW ... The Fair Tax reduces corporate taxes to ZERO. Companies will be moving from Canada to the US ... and the jobs will come here with them....
 
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Let me guess..... You get "creative" and find a way to pass this cost on to your customer through higher prices. Or you cut back on one of your vendors or suppliers and their business is affected negatively. Or you sacrifice quality. Or your employees work harder for the same wage.

How exactly is this "not as bad as everyone thinks"????

Or if you somehow innovated and found a way to increase revenue without sacrificing any of the things I mentioned.... and you sit down to balance the budget at the end of the year and then REALIZE how much you could have made without the added tax.... how does that make you feel? Do you think you would have spent any of that "extra" money that went to taxes?

If so, I'm sure that the person who owns the business you would have spent it at would have been very thankful for some added revenue to help off-set the cost of those new taxes he couldn't find a "creative" way to get around!

If you must know last time I had a unforeseen circumstance take me under a little I fought back by adding 2 more commission only sales guys to increase sales for the company. The result was good the only down side was more of a headache of me trying to balance a overseas flying job while running a business back in the US. The point of my original post before was there will always be change and you will have to find ways to move on and deal with it. Or you can go right to the worst possible scenario right away and assume your job is going to go away that will always help. It is what it is and most owners will overcome it without a lifestyle change.
 
Higher taxes = fewer jobs created and more global outsourcing. If I were a small business owner, why would I want to create new jobs to capture growth opportunities if I were on the hook for both a higher minimum wage (imposed during a recession?) and upcoming escalated healthcare costs when I could just get some cheap dude in India with a PhD to do the work for far less??? Ask yourself that question.

Big point: Obama is a SOCIALIST and anyone who voted for him is complicit. Sure, McCain/Palin was not a good choice either but slick Barack was able to convince voters he was not going to make some of these draconian changes. Evidently he now claims he has had a "change of heart based on new information." Yeah, right... That's called BAIT AND SWITCH.

The huge debt load we will be incurring will haunt our children and grandchildren for decades. Think about that next time you go to the polls. Socialism is counter to American ideals and anyone who voted for Obama is now partially responsible.

By the way, did you know that Barack's real first name is "Barry" and that he officially changed it to Barack years ago? No joke.
 
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Thanks Stalin for your comments. Say hello to Karl Marx for me.

Easy there Joseph...

"His primary achievement has been in confusing the public mind, as between the internal and the external threats of Communism. We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. We must remember always that accusation is not proof and that conviction depends upon evidence and due process of law. We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason, if we dig deep in our history and our doctrine, and remember that we are not descended from fearful men. [...] We proclaim ourselves, as indeed we are, the defenders of freedom, wherever it continues to exist in the world, but we cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home. The actions of the junior Senator from Wisconsin have caused alarm and dismay amongst our allies abroad, and given considerable comfort to our enemies. And whose fault is that? Not really his. He didn't create this situation of fear; he merely exploited it — and rather successfully." Edward R. Murrow
 
Lol

Gerry,

Murrow I guess never read Treason by Ann Coulter. If he had he would have known McCarthy was vindicated and essentially right.

Nice try...

But on another note, Bill Clinton has written a book entitled Trust Me With Your Teenage Daughter, in which he describes his flair for telling bedtime stories. Said Bill, "You just gotta love the way the little darlings sit up and listen when I tell them about the Big Bad Wolf and Goldilocks."

Hey my wife and I are going out for our anniversary tonight, I wonder if he's available? Sophie is a precious child, but kind of an early bloomer.
 
Why is everyone upset with the government health insurance option?

It is an option!!!!

It adds more competition to the insurance industry. I am willing to bet that United Health or Kaiser won't be raising their premiums 35% a year any more when there is competition who will probably just raise it with inflation.

If you don't want it keep your own.



BTW,
Comrade Johnsonrod, can you give us some FACT based examples that our Commander in Chief is a socialist?

It is unpatriotic to criticize the Commander in Chief during a time of war.

I think I smell a Taliban sympathizer who needs a one way ticket to Gitmo and little water boarding as well. :uzi:
 
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Why is everyone upset with the government health insurance option?

It is an option!!!!

It adds more competition to the insurance industry. I am willing to bet that United Health or Kaiser won't be raising their premiums 35% a year any more when there is competition who will probably just raise it with inflation.

If you don't want it keep your own.



BTW,
Comrade Johnsonrod, can you give us some FACT based examples that our Commander in Chief is a socialist?

It is unpatriotic to criticize the Commander in Chief during a time of war.

I think I smell a Taliban sympathizer who needs a one way ticket to Gitmo and little water boarding as well. :uzi:


So you admit that for the past 8 or so years the Democrats have been nothing but unpatriotic Taliban sympathizers, at least you have the guts to admit the truth....
 
Why is everyone upset with the government health insurance option?

It is an option!!!!

It adds more competition to the insurance industry. I am willing to bet that United Health or Kaiser won't be raising their premiums 35% a year any more when there is competition who will probably just raise it with inflation.

If you don't want it keep your own.

It's not that simple. Or at least not to anybody that chooses to study history and basic economics. Sure, it may appear to you that the government is providing "competition" in the marketplace, but the reality is that they will enjoy an UNFAIR advantage! They will be the only player in the game with the POWER of setting "price controls" as well as being able to regulate their competitors. And with this unnatural advantage, how long do you really think it will be before they are the only player in the game?

In fact, introducing this plan as an "option" is nothing more than a strategic move to EXPLOIT and take advantage of the viewpoint you just endorsed. They know from experience that they can't ram an overnight switch to universal coverage down our throats.

Starting out as an "option" is simply their way of getting their foot in the door while minimizing the public resistance and biding their time. And you are playing right into their hand.

Make NO mistake.... the ulitmate goal IS universal government coverage.
 
Why is everyone upset with the government health insurance option?

It is an option!!!!

If you don't want it keep your own.

We can't afford it ... AND ... its against the Constitution of the United States to have federal health care.

And that's the evidence Obama is a Socialist. He follows the Communist Manifesto instead of the COTUS.

And we can't keep our own insurance when this comes ... we will lose our jobs when our passengers are taxed out of the Jet market... paying for Health Care ....
 
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It's not that simple. Or at least not to anybody that chooses to study history and basic economics. Sure, it may appear to you that the government is providing "competition" in the marketplace, but the reality is that they will enjoy an UNFAIR advantage! They will be the only player in the game with the POWER of setting "price controls" as well as being able to regulate their competitors. And with this unnatural advantage, how long do you really think it will be before they are the only player in the game?

In fact, introducing this plan as an "option" is nothing more than a strategic move to EXPLOIT and take advantage of the viewpoint you just endorsed. They know from experience that they can't ram an overnight switch to universal coverage down our throats.

Starting out as an "option" is simply their way of getting their foot in the door while minimizing the public resistance and biding their time. And you are playing right into their hand.

Make NO mistake.... the ulitmate goal IS universal government coverage.



The "OPTION" option is used in Sweden and in Switzerland where private insurance companies compete against the government option. It seems to work there.
 

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