The Skinny on the Age 60 Rule

[rspilot]

???????

 

[ultrarunner]

I'd support an increase in the retirement age. It's all about options....for those thumpers that want to cash-out at 60, see ya..for those that want to stay a bit longer, they'll have the choice.

IMO, I don't believe the government is going to continue to support the demise of the pension plans AND force the same worker into retiring early..it's double jeapordy and just not going to happen. Age 60 will be repealed.

 

[b757driver]

Some Sothern Charm!!

Quick question here guys - Does DAL have a provision for guys over 60 to continue flying or working past age 60? One of my fellow employees swears 100% his dad can continue past 60. My understanding is that nothing has changed currently but may in the future.

I did skim this thread but with 295 posts just asking is a lot easier - Thanks.

Baja.

Quite a few of those early DAL retirees are working on foreign contracts overseas where it don't matter how old you are. Plenty of over-60 guys out there doing just that and they ain't falling out of the sky! I know because I fly with some of them. Most of them actually fly BETTER than the younger kids, so that disproves one poster. And this is generally speaking on older generation aircraft on international operations - not the "same old 10-15 airports year in year out". Sorry, to dispel another myth:crying:
Only downside is that they have to go overseas to do it.....upside, they get their pensions (what's left of it) plus they continue to fly and earn for an extra few years. I do not decry them that. I just wish that I will be able to do likewise when the time comes.

747driver

 

[Flopgut]

Quite a few of those early DAL retirees are working on foreign contracts overseas where it don't matter how old you are. Plenty of over-60 guys out there doing just that and they ain't falling out of the sky! I know because I fly with some of them. Most of them actually fly BETTER than the younger kids, so that disproves one poster. And this is generally speaking on older generation aircraft on international operations - not the "same old 10-15 airports year in year out". Sorry, to dispel another myth:crying:
Only downside is that they have to go overseas to do it.....upside, they get their pensions (what's left of it) plus they continue to fly and earn for an extra few years. I do not decry them that. I just wish that I will be able to do likewise when the time comes.

747driver

I hope to be able to do something similiar to this. This is how it should be. Only the better ones get a shot in this sort of endeavor. They have to be good employment candidates, overall. Not just pass a checkride and a physical like some advocate. The problem with a simple age change is that we have to keep everyone.

Of course they are getting this shot to use their skill set because these companies don't function on seniority as the single determining factor for advancement. In the absence of this, or (maybe) a national seniority list, I cannot imagine ever supporting age 65 in the US. I can imagine supporting bond like financial devices that can help recoup losses to older pilots (there should be an upside to this business we can hedge these against). I could also (perhaps) support the proposed change in flight and duty time limitations. 10 hrs flight time in 24 with a corresponding annual limitation change could help us make some more dough. But we can't do both! Age 65 and 10 in 24 and we are going to have retirement parties in funeral parlors.

I may be a 777 CA for ten years or I may get pushed out early, I don't want 5 years that another won't get. And no one should. I can do something else.

 

[b757driver]

I agree. Maybe age and seniority should not be the sole determining factors. Just because it's always been that way does not necessarily mean it should always stay that way.

There's a saying that pilots are their own worse enemies and I tend to agree with that sentiment. Management and others see that weakness and prey on it in order to further erode the profession.

It is also another reason why the majority of overseas carriers are doing better than the US - they don't ALL have age 60, they don't ALL have strict seniority. In other words, they are more flexible and in an ever global market, flexibility is the key. Those that have it, can pick and choose and those that don't, get left by the wayside. Which would you choose? Go with the herd or throw caution to the wind and try something new and different?

 

[71KILO]

I may be a 777 CA for ten years or I may get pushed out early, I don't want 5 years that another won't get. And no one should. I can do something else.

Hey flopgut, you are a socialist! Your posts make me ill. Go fly for Air Canada. Get off the government dole. Write a few posts when you're 59.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Write up a well thought out email and then cut and paste it to all the members, use the subject line HR65. .

I would recommend that you use a better argument than any used here so far. Remember, you are trying to sell rational people on the idea that fully capable pilots need to be forced to retire and become a drain on society instead of continuing to pay taxes and be covered by employer-sponsored health insurance. Remember, it is in the vital national public interest that the government maintain an archaic law that has never prevented an accident and that provides dubious protection to a few at the expense of many. And you might want to mention that when union members fail to get the support needed to build these types of protections into CBA's, then Congress should enact laws that do it for them.

That ought to get their support.

 

[Bringupthebird]

I hope to be able to do something similiar to this.

Gee flop, all you have to do is apply. Why not go off to China or India and fly as Capt.? You get your upgrade and the current Capts. get the option to continue for a couple more years if they need/want to. Sounds like a win-win to me.

I mean you're telling them to take a hike to benefit you. Why the double-standard?

 

[Bringupthebird]

I agree. Maybe age and seniority should not be the sole determining factors. Just because it's always been that way does not necessarily mean it should always stay that way.

There's a saying that pilots are their own worse enemies and I tend to agree with that sentiment. Management and others see that weakness and prey on it in order to further erode the profession.

It is also another reason why the majority of overseas carriers are doing better than the US - they don't ALL have age 60, they don't ALL have strict seniority. In other words, they are more flexible and in an ever global market, flexibility is the key. Those that have it, can pick and choose and those that don't, get left by the wayside. Which would you choose? Go with the herd or throw caution to the wind and try something new and different?

Great idea! I say let's have an air race, similar to the Reno races. I'll bring my Airbus, you can take bring whatever you want (no DC-8's though, we need a fair race!) we'll get a waiver for the 250kt rule and let 'er rip! Then comes the spot-landing and flour-bomb drop. The top 5 get to be captains.

 

[Flopgut]

Hey flopgut, you are a socialist! Your posts make me ill. Go fly for Air Canada. Get off the government dole. Write a few posts when you're 59.

Not a socialist my friend, I'm a unionist. All for one, one for all. Nobody wins till we all win.

There is a degree of responsibility to that perspective that I'm quite sure you, and many others here, aren't ready for, and that is: we all need to know when enough is enough. Age 60 is enough. I don't care in the least about why the rule exists. Its been the rule for 50+ years. Evidently you folks supporting the age change don't really care about discrimination because all you want to do is make the rule another age! Just another equally discriminating number! (It happens to benefit you so that does not bother you)

Age 60 is a component to how we function as a union and a majority of us DON'T want it to change. If you are trying to carve out a better deal for yourself outside a collective bargaining agreement then we will need your name to ad to a list many of us keep.

I find it amazing that you guys tell me to go to China or Canada when the fact is age 60 has benefited each of you your whole career. I can't imagine a more contemptable position than anyone supporting this change. You don't care that it has been in place for 50 years, you don't care that a majority of pilots do not support a change, you don't care about how it will affect anything in the future, you just want your own selfish, immediate satisfaction.

 

[Flopgut]

Gee flop, all you have to do is apply. Why not go off to China or India and fly as Capt.? You get your upgrade and the current Capts. get the option to continue for a couple more years if they need/want to. Sounds like a win-win to me.

I mean you're telling them to take a hike to benefit you. Why the double-standard?

Lets be clear. I'm "telling them" we have a 50 year old rule that a majority of us in the profession support. I'm "telling them" its a good rule.

Is there a more glaring double standard than a bunch of pilots who want to work to 65 after everyone before them got tossed out at 60?

I want my fair share of this business. I will respect it, try to improve it, and pass it on! When its my turn to work elsewhere, I'll do it.

 

[71KILO]

Not a socialist my friend, I'm a unionist. All for one, one for all. Nobody wins till we all win.

quote]

My bad you're right you are not a socialist. YOU ARE A FILTHY COMMUNIST! Where's McCarthy when I need him. Power to the working class baby! Dude, that grand experiment failed or did you forget about the USSR. Hell even China has dropped the commie bit for a something between communism, socialism, and fascism. You die hard union guys are the reason Eastern, PanAm, and TWA are gone if you ask me. I'm all for a union to protect the workers but at somepoint when the workers demands are outrageous, the company folds. You're nuts man. Quit trying to take care of me abolish the stupid 60 rule. Why do I even read your idiodic rants...

Times they are a changin and you're about to miss the bus for your dumb out-dated traditions.

 

[Flopgut]

I agree. Maybe age and seniority should not be the sole determining factors. Just because it's always been that way does not necessarily mean it should always stay that way.

There's a saying that pilots are their own worse enemies and I tend to agree with that sentiment. Management and others see that weakness and prey on it in order to further erode the profession.

It is also another reason why the majority of overseas carriers are doing better than the US - they don't ALL have age 60, they don't ALL have strict seniority. In other words, they are more flexible and in an ever global market, flexibility is the key. Those that have it, can pick and choose and those that don't, get left by the wayside. Which would you choose? Go with the herd or throw caution to the wind and try something new and different?

I agree, pilots are their own worst enemies. Instead of working on things to truly improve the profession, we are having to debate this devisive issue. Its like the tv show Survivor. So much so, I'm afraid, that the most selfish, least disciplined will end up winning.

It is management's dream come true! Lets keep the most senior around in a strange sort of legislated coup/ambush. That will divide the ranks real well. And the proponents of this are all too happy to comply. Working longer is not trend forward thinking, it is just working longer!

We blew it years ago on a national seniority list. I don't think we should just grant 5 extra years of seniority to pilots now without giving some consideration to changing our seniority system. It would be a good accompanyment to a change.

 

[Flopgut]

Not a socialist my friend, I'm a unionist. All for one, one for all. Nobody wins till we all win.

quote]

My bad you're right you are not a socialist. YOU ARE A FILTHY COMMUNIST! Where's McCarthy when I need him. Power to the working class baby! Dude, that grand experiment failed or did you forget about the USSR. Hell even China has dropped the commie bit for a something between communism, socialism, and fascism. You die hard union guys are the reason Eastern, PanAm, and TWA are gone if you ask me. I'm all for a union to protect the workers but at somepoint when the workers demands are outrageous, the company folds. You're nuts man. Quit trying to take care of me abolish the stupid 60 rule. Why do I even read your idiodic rants...

Times they are a changin and you're about to miss the bus for your dumb out-dated traditions.

I don't know if they covered this for you in "facist initial training" but the Declaration of Independence reads: "We the People...." not "We the corporations".

You don't listen well. I'm saying this: either seniority is serious enough that we don't just give it away, or if it is not, then lets adjust it so we don't have to keep some pilots hanging around that should go.

Your arguement does not match the political assertions you are making. Remember, your advocating nothing more than an age change (current legislation). Your not really correcting or improving anything there mr. statesman. Pretty sloppy.

If you think EAL, PAA or TWA are gone because the workers demands were too burdensome then you are pitiful and an embarrasment.

 

[71KILO]

I don't know if they covered this for you in "facist initial training" but the Declaration of Independence reads: "We the People...." not "We the corporations".

You don't listen well. I'm saying this: either seniority is serious enough that we don't just give it away, or if it is not, then lets adjust it so we don't have to keep some pilots hanging around that should go.

Your arguement does not match the political assertions you are making. Remember, your advocating nothing more than an age change (current legislation). Your not really correcting or improving anything there mr. statesman. Pretty sloppy.

If you think EAL, PAA or TWA are gone because the workers demands were too burdensome then you are pitiful and an embarrasment.

Don't try to church it up. You are a selfish loser that tries to hide under that tired old musketeer mantra of one for all and all for one. I'm all for the "We the people in order to form a more perfect union do hold these truths to be self evident." as a form of government but I'm not for it as a business model. When government or the working class control the business it is no longer capatalism and I dare say that aint my version of this democratic republic I hold so dear. I'm still doing my part in the military reserve so don't try that patriotism line cause you'll lose.

I realize there were numerous factors in the demise of those legacy carriers but the demands of the workers got pretty crazy. Look the steady march of the RJ community is proof that people will do this job for less and management knows it. So power to the workers and good luck holding your job. You might want to get on the over 60 bandwagon so you can stach a little more in your 401K before your airline goes Tango Uniform.

 

[Phaedrus]

Hey Flop,
When one is completely bereft of any substantive rebuttal in a debate, some fall back on name calling. It's really quite amusing. Methinks 71K would benefit from a few more years hanging out with the Dean at Faber.
Peace, and be wild.

 

[Flopgut]

Don't try to church it up. You are a selfish loser that tries to hide under that tired old musketeer mantra of one for all and all for one. I'm all for the "We the people in order to form a more perfect union do hold these truths to be self evident." as a form of government but I'm not for it as a business model. When government or the working class control the business it is no longer capatalism and I dare say that aint my version of this democratic republic I hold so dear. I'm still doing my part in the military reserve so don't try that patriotism line cause you'll lose.

I realize there were numerous factors in the demise of those legacy carriers but the demands of the workers got pretty crazy. Look the steady march of the RJ community is proof that people will do this job for less and management knows it. So power to the workers and good luck holding your job. You might want to get on the over 60 bandwagon so you can stach a little more in your 401K before your airline goes Tango Uniform.

When the people who control the corporations control the government it is no longer capitalism. When corporations no longer treat workers with respect capitalism suffers as well. In reality, the more a company respects its workers the better off shareholders are. Is there any more clear example of this than the airline business?

Have you checked out the thread on here about Buffet? Managements are not fullfilling their mandate to corporations and shareholders in almost all industries in this country. Thats what we need to worry about. And we can do something about it. Via our CBAs we need to be inflexible to whimsical and baseless crap our mgts dream up. We need to be sufficently expensive so as to cause mgts to actually care a little bit about how they lead. We need to draw out and identfy their waste and greed and let shareholders see it.

What we don't need is to find new ways to fragment our profession. You don't like the RJ guys, the age 60 rule, or legacy carriers. Your own "good decision making" should lift you above everyone else's problems. Mgts love workers like you.

In this changing environment, age 65 does not move us forward. It is a lateral step at best. It is wasted effort. Lets not just work longer, lets work better.

 

[Flopgut]

Hey Flop,
When one is completely bereft of any substantive rebuttal in a debate, some fall back on name calling. It's really quite amusing. Methinks 71K would benefit from a few more years hanging out with the Dean at Faber.
Peace, and be wild.

This guy is pretty wound up for sure. We have a lot of these types at my airline. Most of them were hired by Lorenzo and are perfect examples of Stockholm Syndrom sufferers.

Do you have any idea what he is talking about with regard to EAL, PAA, or especially TWA? I wasn't aware of greedy workers being the larger truth or even the tipping point behind any of those demises.

Especially TWA! Who picks on TWA?

 

[Bringupthebird]

It is management's dream come true! Lets keep the most senior around in a strange sort of legislated coup/ambush. .

Flop-
you gotta look at your post for a second before you hit the Submit button and see what crazy crap you're writing. Management would like everyone to retire after 2-3 years. No top of scale, no retirements and no expensive health care. You know this! Now grab a paper bag and breathe into it, you'll calm down in a minute.

If you could get CALPA to write an age 60 retirement into their CBA, CAL would probably give up something valuable to the junior folks. Getting such a CBA ratified by your pilots, well that's something else entirely.

 

[71KILO]

Hey Flop,
When one is completely bereft of any substantive rebuttal in a debate, some fall back on name calling. It's really quite amusing. Methinks 71K would benefit from a few more years hanging out with the Dean at Faber.
Peace, and be wild.

Since when is calling someone a communist name calling? It's a belief in a form of government not a derogitory name, moron. HA!