The Skinny on the Age 60 Rule

[Swaayze]

Jeez, I can't even imagine waking up at 0300 and doing 12-14 hr days at the age of 65. It's unsafe for a 25 yo let alone a 65 yo (I know I'm generalizing health but you get my drift). Maybe with some humane Duty/Flt time limits and honest, fair PCs and line evals an increased age limit would be just as safe. No offense to you older guys (I'm an older guy to many airline pilots now too, pushin' 40), but let's face it there is often some degradation of skills/abilities/focus as we age. I'm probably not as sharp all the time as I once was - age brings more extraneous influences, worries, etc that can affect our performance and focus. That said, the age 60 rule does seem to me to be nothing more than age discrimination, but there's lots of that in government limits (driver's licenses, etc). Now is just a horrible time to raise the age, couldn't it be done during an upcycle to reduce the effect on junior pilots? Or maybe enacted only for pilots who have not yet received their commercial certificate (or a seniority #, or whatever), with a corresponding reduction in social security/medicare age for those of us already governmentally forced on the age 60 plan? Sorry, I should get my mind back in the box.....

God knows many of us will need the option to keep working, preferably near the top of an airline seniority list and payscale instead of at WM. I left a decent job to go to a major so I could retire at 55 with about $7000/mo in pension money, but now I'm right back where I started 10 years ago - bottom of a seniority list and not enough pay to contribute much to retirement. I'm sure I'm not alone.

 

[Spooky 1]

Jeez, I can't even imagine waking up at 0300 and doing 12-14 hr days at the age of 65. It's unsafe for a 25 yo let alone a 65 yo (I know I'm generalizing health but you get my drift). Maybe with some humane Duty/Flt time limits and honest, fair PCs and line evals an increased age limit would be just as safe. God knows many of us will need the option to keep working, preferably near the top of an airline seniority list and payscale instead of at WM.

Note to self: get off your butt and start investing in real estate already!!!

What airline are working for that has unfair PC's and line checks? I want to be sure that I don't ride on it if that is really the case. Surely you jest.

 

[FoxHunter]

I happen to feel it is a safety issue, having flown with guys approaching retirement that no long had “it”. They were in the very small minority, however changing the rule to 65 or 67 there will be a bunch more.

There are numerous reasons though. Safety, Financial, or Congress shouldn't be overiding FAA rules. Or for our Republican friends, why are we letting Europe and the ICAO use congress to change a safety rule of this country. Use what you want just please write and encourage anyone you know to write also.

I have no doubt that some approaching age 60 are having some problems. You will find these individuals also had the same problems as they approached age 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, 55.

Congress has mandated changes to FARs in the past. Why do you think airlines were required to install TCAS?

 

[filejw]

I'm not a big fan of flying over sixty just cause I am lazy and don't want to be forced too.But on my last trip I had a 39 yr old try to land our wide body sideways after the previous leg trying to make the airport from about 12 miles out at 10000'.Trip before a 33 yr old F/E thought taking off with fuel pumps off would be OK.Having been a line and sim check guy for many yrs that losing skill thing is way overblown.

 

[Spooky 1]

I'm not a big fan of flying over sixty just cause I am lazy and don't want to be forced too.But on my last trip I had a 39 yr old try to land our wide body sideways after the previous leg trying to make the airport from about 12 miles out at 10000'.Trip before a 33 yr old F/E thought taking off with fuel pumps off would be OK.Having been a line and sim check guy for many yrs that losing skill thing is way overblown.

We have been down this road before regarding the age 60 issue vs. skill deterioration. Some do, some don't and just like you have spoken to, some never get it at any age. I have asked in several strings before this if anyone could point to an accident that was indictitve of age related problems. So far I have not seen any examples, but I would acknowledge that there may be some, I just have had them pointed out. In the mean time there have been numerous accidents where the crews were in an age bracket that certainly would have precluded anything ever happening if age alone was such an important factor.

 

[Dan Roman]

I'm not a big fan of flying over sixty just cause I am lazy and don't want to be forced too.But on my last trip I had a 39 yr old try to land our wide body sideways after the previous leg trying to make the airport from about 12 miles out at 10000'.Trip before a 33 yr old F/E thought taking off with fuel pumps off would be OK.Having been a line and sim check guy for many yrs that losing skill thing is way overblown.

Exactly, A 60 year old with years of experience more than makes up for any supposed physical degradation. A cocky younger pilot is more of a hazard than an older experienced one.

 

[vetrider]

Here we go again. Around and around and around and around and around and around. Again, around and around and around and around.

What about abortion rights and the right to life?

What about the death penalty, is it constitutional? Moral?

 

[Stan]

For those of you that argue 60 is an arbitrary age, so is age 65 of 67. What's the difference. In 5 years those that are approaching the new age limit, that are not financially set do to bad luck or bad planning, will be compaining again.

Most of you guys are smart enough and have enough skill to do something more productive than flying airplanes.

 

[Andy]

So far I have not seen any examples, but I would acknowledge that there may be some, I just have had them pointed out. In the mean time there have been numerous accidents where the crews were in an age bracket that certainly would have precluded anything ever happening if age alone was such an important factor.

I've posted two such accidents on this board. We've had this discussion before. Don't you remember? Is this selective memory on your part, or is this just further proof that your mental acuity deteriorates with age?
I suppose you also believe that people have the right to drive motor vehicles until the day that they die. Sure, there are some octagenarians who drive very well. But plenty of them are, IMHO, more dangerous than a 15 year old with a learner's permit.

 

[Spooky 1]

For those of you that argue 60 is an arbitrary age, so is age 65 of 67. What's the difference. In 5 years those that are approaching the new age limit, that are not financially set do to bad luck or bad planning, will be compaining again.

Most of you guys are smart enough and have enough skill to do something more productive than flying airplanes.

I can't think of anything that would pay me as much, with so much time off and some good times thrown in for good measure than what I am doing at 60+ right now.

 

[RAC396]

The best argument for increseing the retirement is the CVR transcript of the Pinnacle accident. "DUDE"

 

[ivauir]

For those who support the change - how do you feel about right of return for those already retired? The surrent rules doesn't include it and no one seems to support it. That tells me that this is about what is good for YOU. Those who scream about how unfair it is (the current rule) don't really care about what is fair, they just want what is best for them.
For the record I do think the rule is unfair, but any change needs to mitigate the damage THAT WILL BE DONE to the younger pilots' careers. Perhaps we let folks stay on and fly as FOs. That way those who really need the money can get it, and those who are just greedy will probably bail.

 

[CaptainMark]

waaaaa waaaaa...my airline trashed its pension...i am divorced 5 times....the stock market....the war...bottom line...afford the same benefit to upgrade as you were afforded to the junior pilots

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Get mad, talk bad, even hate others.

Doesn't matter. Age 60 will die. May only go to 62 but will likely to phase into age 65.

 

[typhoonpilot]

For those of you that argue 60 is an arbitrary age, so is age 65 of 67. What's the difference. In 5 years those that are approaching the new age limit, that are not financially set do to bad luck or bad planning, will be compaining again.

Most of you guys are smart enough and have enough skill to do something more productive than flying airplanes.

Two of the big differences are Social Security and Medicare, and at what age you can start taking benefits.

You second sentence also makes no sense. As I said previously, I'll be gone at 60 or sooner if it works out with this airline, but I would like to have the option to continue if it doesn't. George Bush, the wacko, could easily go postal on Iran or some other made up threat and there goes this job. Or maybe the bird flu scare turns out to be real and most worldwide travel comes to a screeching halt.

Fox Hunter said:

I have no doubt that some approaching age 60 are having some problems. You will find these individuals also had the same problems as they approached age 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, 55.

Nice to group everybody in one bunch, huh I generally have a lot of time for what you say on this board, but this statement is just too naive to let go without a comment. I was putting money into an IRA as soon as I could and, coincidentally, when everybody else was buying a new sportscar. Try spending years on furlough and see what that does to your finances. Some of us aren't so lucky as to be with one carrier for our whole careers, or at least most of it.


Typhoonpilot