the pro's and cons of unions in the fractional aviation and airline industry

[B19 Flyer]

B19, even I am amazed how good of story- teller you are. But lies are easier to fabricate than to tell the truth. They fall apart easier too.

So, what HAVE you done lately with your union that has provided value to somebody other than yourself or the people your union represents? You are so pro-union pebbles, let me know what you bring to the table. Is there even a union that supports king air pilots? Or is it a union of one?

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

Yeah, I'm back. I need to work for a living Pat, when I'm out of the office I have limited time to be on the computer, especially when I'm overseas as I was this week. The time zones mess me up. I'm not going to give you a job title, but I will tell you that I've done everything in aviation from pump gas to work as a director. I've worked in customer service, OCC, safety, quality assurance and flight operations, most of it in management as I got older. What I do now though isn't as relevent as what I used to do that put me in the middle of all the union crap. As I've said before, that stuff is behind me now, but I still feel that there needs to be a voice that has experienced this stuff to educate those that have only experienced the good side of unions that that are bad sides as well. The problem is, that those airlines that run with what pilots consider bad management will usually last longer and hold more job security than carriers with good management that are restricted by a CBA. Do me a favor Pat? From now on in, drive only within the speed limit. Act as if you had a cop sitting beside you with a ticket book open with your name on it every where you go. No going over the speed limit by 5 mph anywhere. No 70 in a 55, no 35 in a 20 mph zone. Much of what I've written about is the lack of responsiveness that unions get when the financial scale tips in the wrong direction. But that simple example will let you know what it is like to have a union on the property. Everything that you do is micromanaged to the point of being unable to function. Scope clauses are a great example of that. So, to get back to the original statement Pat, what have you done in the industry to be able to speak from experience as to how your union has improved and added value to any individual outside of yourself and the specific represented group?

I'd say most pilots consider Southwest to have good Management and with a union on the property and a great business plan they've made $$$ 30 something years in a row. Most financially successful 121 carrier that I know of.

Your example of exceeding the speed limit is laughable. The first thought that came to mind was why not exceed duty times, or flight times, maybe fudge the weights, etc. Fly some hazmat! It's just another type of freight when it comes down to it!!!

Lousy example on your part. The reason those rules are micromanaged by unions are for safety purposes as well as the every companies policy of leaving a flight crew out to dry if anything goes wrong. Many of those rules are written in someone elses blood. Management just doesn't want to admit that.

Mr. I.

 

[pilotpat]

Well...since Mr I put the quote up I had to read his reply. As Mr I says its laughable. However, I happen to be that guy who drives 30MPH in a 30MPH zone. I don't give a rats behind who is on my tail. I actually DO the speed limit.

 

[dime line]

Well...since Mr I put the quote up I had to read his reply. As Mr I says its laughable. However, I happen to be that guy who drives 30MPH in a 30MPH zone. I don't give a rats behind who is on my tail. I actually DO the speed limit.

Great your the reason that there is a line of cars behind you and nobody in front of you. Your so responsible. Thanks a lot

 

[pilotpat]

Heh, heh...I do my best!

 

[Publishers]

The basic premise that gets lost in these discussions is that business does not exist to employ but to profit. A friend of mine the other day was extolling the benefits of an internet business that he started and one of hte really strong selling points was that it was a "passive" business. What he meant was that it did not have employees and as a consequnence required less management but still made money. The killer issue in union /managment or non union /managment is not so much the unionization but the environment that all this operates in today. Unions generally try to create a stable environment for their workforce with guaranteed pay and job security. Unfortunately the economy of the world does not always go along with the concept and hence the big problems.

 

[gunfyter]

Publishers,

I understand why a business exists....

But I care more about why I exist.

If you have a business that employs people... thats what You need to understand.

People (workers) don't exist for YOUR business.

 

[B19 Flyer]

I'd say most pilots consider Southwest to have good Management and with a union on the property and a great business plan they've made $$$ 30 something years in a row. Most financially successful 121 carrier that I know of.

Your example of exceeding the speed limit is laughable. The first thought that came to mind was why not exceed duty times, or flight times, maybe fudge the weights, etc. Fly some hazmat! It's just another type of freight when it comes down to it!!!

Lousy example on your part. The reason those rules are micromanaged by unions are for safety purposes as well as the every companies policy of leaving a flight crew out to dry if anything goes wrong. Many of those rules are written in someone elses blood. Management just doesn't want to admit that.

Mr. I.

First of all, the SWA deal was a ten year deal that was heavily based on profit sharing. SWA is heavily unionized but it works based on the profit sharing basis. Kelleher is now gone, as well as the old union leadership. Right now the flight attendents are bucking the traditional SWA contract and going for the I'll take all I can get theory rather than the traditional profit sharing method. The PWA is also in the early stages and all indications are that the new leadership is going the same way also. As a result, the only airline that has truly thrived through unions is about to go down the same road as the others. My observation wasn't to buck the rules, but when the contract is in place, the speed limit is enforced all the time. You want time off? It doesn't work within the agreement? You don't get it even though there are plenty of other pilots to cover. It works both ways. The speed limit isn't the regs, it's the contract. The real speed limit can't be reached. Perhaps a better example would have been to drive UNDER the speed limit by 10% MPH all the time, and be able to be ticketed for it even though it is within the posted limit.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Publishers,

I understand why a business exists....

But I care more about why I exist.

If you have a business that employs people... thats what You need to understand.

People (workers) don't exist for YOUR business.

Classic, classic, classic union post. You care about why you exist but could care less about what the company needs to do to survive as long as you are treated well. The company profit is what creates job security, not the union contract. The contract isn't worth the paper its written on if there is no money to pay for it.

 

[pilotyip]

Reality Check

B-19 I warned you before this is a pilot board, stop dealing in reality. Posts things like "If you are in a union you never have to worry about employment because it is guarenteed in a contract". Then you will be accepted, loved and prasied as being a true member of the brotherhood.

 

[imacdog]

YIP you haven't answered my question yet. Why did you leave some of your work rules out of your post? You must keep preaching this bullcrap so the pilots you hire come in with sub-standard expectations. This is a career, not a hobby, and many pilot groups choose to have professional representation on their side against managers whose wet dream is to pay crap wages with no quality of life and can fire at any time for any reason. So please YIP, stop dispensing your bullcrap. No one here is buying it.

 

[gunfyter]

Classic, classic, classic union post. You care about why you exist but could care less about what the company needs to do to survive as long as you are treated well. The company profit is what creates job security, not the union contract. The contract isn't worth the paper its written on if there is no money to pay for it.

And without the workers ... there is no business.

Let me give you a lesson in leadership.

The (financial) goal of any business ... to produce profits. Financial Success however the leadership chooses to define it.

The goal of any worker: Personal Financial Success.

What has to be done in running your business ... is to achieve the Financial goals of the business ...

BY

Leading the Employees/Workers to achieving their Personal Financial goals.

Thats what SWA has done... thats what Microsoft has done.

But for the most part Fractionals and most airlines have tried to SCREW the pilots...

ala... LOW pay, Pay-For-Training, Training Contracts. Pressuring pilots to work while fatigued, violate Duty & Rest, overweight loads, etc..


Here is a CLUE:

If you don't care about MY personal Financial Success ... then I don't care about Yours.

When a company shows that they do care about the workers ... THEN

I LOVE YOU.

I respect YIPPILOT-- He has said he Flys because he likes to, not necessarily to get rich.

I respect him but I don't feel the same. I fly to to take care of my family. If i can't do that ... I'll find something else to do.

 

[pilotyip]

Gunguy, I have done pretty good taking care of my family and providing for a sound retirement plan and at the same time had a lot of fun flying neat airplanes, doing neat things at a lot of different places. You can have it both ways. I agree with your posting companies that are profitable like SWA, Micro, etc. should share with their employees, I see nothing wrong with that. If you working for a place that breaks regs, etc does not treat you correctly, you should not work there. Pilots’ leaving is the ultimate insult to management.

 

[Mr. Pebbles]

So, what HAVE you done lately with your union that has provided value to somebody other than yourself or the people your union represents? You are so pro-union pebbles, let me know what you bring to the table. Is there even a union that supports king air pilots? Or is it a union of one?

If you'll research my posts, you'll see I'm not so pro union as you would like to say. I would gladly work for non- union shops ( and I have) if the management took care of their own. However, I haven't seen one non- union shop yet that didn't or wouldn't hang their guys out to dry once the poop hit the fan.

Take Avantair for example, since you know and I know who you are. Frustrating part for you- you don't know who I am even tho you make comments that indicate that you think you know. I know for a fact and I've seen emails and heard phone messages from management pressuring pilots to fly overweight and do other illegal things. What do you think would happen if those same pilots would fall into a situation where they needed help? Would you help them? The answer is no. You would ask them to resign or they would be fired. That's your routine. That's why your pilots need a union. I don't think every company needs a union. Just the scumbag companies. You know full well that aviation companies have a history of screwing over the pilots even though they have the most stressfull positions with most of the responsibility.

Furthurmore, your elaborate stories of how you fly internationally, and all your bla,bla,bla is crap. You may fool some people but you're not fooling the people who know you. You're a liar, and you know it. A pathetic, sniveling little snake. Laughable.

 

[Mr. Pebbles]

Classic, classic, classic union post. You care about why you exist but could care less about what the company needs to do to survive as long as you are treated well. The company profit is what creates job security, not the union contract. The contract isn't worth the paper its written on if there is no money to pay for it.

That's actually true. That's why you should actually come up with a business model that makes money so you don't look stupid. Why ask a large group of professional pilots to fly for ******************** wages just because your business model sucks? Why would they do that? To help you out just because they're nice guys? Get real. They're all hoping to retire some day too with money in the bank.

By the way, how many airplanes do you guys have parked right now because you can't find pilots to fly them? I know that around 15- 20 pilots quit this year. Whew, that must hurt.

 

[dime line]

Gunguy, I have done pretty good taking care of my family and providing for a sound retirement plan and at the same time had a lot of fun flying neat airplanes, doing neat things at a lot of different places. You can have it both ways. I agree with your posting companies that are profitable like SWA, Micro, etc. should share with their employees, I see nothing wrong with that. If you working for a place that breaks regs, etc does not treat you correctly, you should not work there. Pilots’ leaving is the ultimate insult to management.

That is the problem with most, there is no insult, its just part of the business, and if a higher paid pilot leaves that is good, not an insult. You and I and everybody else on here are nothing more than a line on a P and L statement. your a number. you represent an expense to a shareholder.

 

[pilotyip]

Can't agree with you dime line, there is P&L portion of retaining pilots, you save in training costs, your crewmembers perform better on the job, crews take better care of equipment, burn less fuel and make the customer happier because you do a better job. These are all reasons to reduce turnover and the reason USA Jet has raised pay, made it easier to break guarantee, given more days off, gone to hard days off and raised pre-diem. In the long run it saves money and that is why the company made the move. It now paying dividends, in on-industry where crew shortages are impacting the bottom line, USA Jet is capable of recruiting and keeping turnover manageable without a training contract.

 

[dime line]

Can't agree with you dime line, there is P&L portion of retaining pilots, you save in training costs, your crewmembers perform better on the job, crews take better care of equipment, burn less fuel and make the customer happier because you do a better job. These are all reasons to reduce turnover and the reason USA Jet has raised pay, made it easier to break guarantee, given more days off, gone to hard days off and raised pre-diem. In the long run it saves money and that is why the company made the move. It now paying dividends, in on-industry where crew shortages are impacting the bottom line, USA Jet is capable of recruiting and keeping turnover manageable without a training contract.

Ok I agree with you, but I was thinking of FLOPS as I was typing

 

[texman]

Are you joking! I know old crusty airline guy's that can't even shoot a visual in to KASE. If you are retired and come to the fractionals, you will have your AS@@@ handed to you!

 

[transpac]

Are you joking! I know old crusty airline guy's that can't even shoot a visual in to KASE. If you are retired and come to the fractionals, you will have your AS@@@ handed to you!

It's not just ex-airline pilots that have problems the first couple of times into ASE! Anyone with a large turbojet background tends to avoid low power and high sink rates on final like the plague. Unfortunately, at ASE it's either high sink or a long landing.