the pro's and cons of unions in the fractional aviation and airline industry

[pilotpat]

Okay...B19...why not tell us exactly what you do, then? You don't fly. "Haven't flown in years and years and years". "Lost my medical". "Sat in the jumpseat for 23 hours".

You've been called on pulling from your "union" experience in the "airlines" and NOT a bit of experience in the fractional world. Are you even in the frac world? Or do you just troll these boards like an evangelical speaking to the elderly on an early Sunday morn?

Now, by your own statement, you're not even management. So, again, I pose the question, if you can actually answer it: What on God's green Earth do you do?

 

[gunfyter]

19,

Who's idea was it to institute Pay for Training and Training contracts? Managements or Unions?

I believe these constitute Unfair labor Practices.

Don't you think it sucks that when someone gets a better offer they can't leave because the company will charge them monies?

 

[Galaxy]

1108 has been in existence for what? two years? Give 'em time and they'll be like all the other unions.

The lazy and corrupt will take over the leadership positions because the good people will be sick and tired of the politics and spending all the unions resources protecting the same 5% who are constantly in trouble.

Dont forget that this pilot group has had union leadership for over thirty years. What happened to the previous union?

I knew you would wake up from your little anti-union cubicle. But again your imputs are from a vantage of someone who does not fly for a living. So how can you have a real opinion on the subject? Other than the one your Boss told you to have. As far as the history of the 1108. I think we all know it by now, it was created because the pilots were getting hosed over by a weak union mgt. As soon as they became sick of it life changed for them as it is changing for FLOPS. Will it revert to what it was? I doubt it as once you ave been in that crappy situation, you do not want to go back. So lets forget about the history of what a previous union did or did not do in the loooong period it had time to do things. Instead, lets focus on what the current union has done for its members in the time it has had..

 

[hammer2]

How many retired airline guys are sitting in the right seat now where you are that can fly circles around the guys in the left seat based on career experience alone? For those retired guys, they should be able to take all that experience directly into the left seat of an airplane with a simular type rating. Instead, they wind up in the right seat and the experience is not used to the best advantage of the carrier. In fractionals, having this flight and leadership experience in the left seat is even more crucial due to the nature of diverse flying. Upgrades by strictly seniority and not merit does not best serve the owner. This experience translates directly to a safer operation. I'll support merit upgrades anytime over seniority upgrades based on safety alone. You can add this to my growing list of reasons why unions are a bad idea in today's aviation environment.

Your lack of knowledge and experience is barking like a big blue dog. You need to go to the general aviation board.

 

[Galaxy]

Well, first not everyone in the 1108 works for NJA.

So what happens that makes you go from being happy and satisfied to get the job to dissatisfied and pissed off at the company?

Did the company stop paying you the wages agreed to when you started?.

First the promises that they made and the way they explained the operation. They claimed everyone started at the bottom, not true. During training there were guys and gals in different planes getting paid different rates.. some as high as 20K more than others. Talking to these folks it was not because they had experience in the airframe or level of experience. None of it made sense other than one guy got hired on the first week of the month and others got hired on the third week. I have even seen guys get hired as street PIC's when they just came from a caravan. This showed me off the bat a lack of leadership.

Did the company stop funding the 401k?

Did the company stop paying the medical, dental, and vision bills that it agreed to cover when they hired you?.

Actually, yes they just got caught doing such and had to correct their mistake. Medical, I was told how expenses went up 35% but then had my premium raised 225%. Can you explain that math?

Lets face it, the company didnt change....your expectations did.

If the company no longer fits your raised expectations, then go find one that does.

No, my expectations did not change. I simply watched a company that I care for get pillaged from the inside. I know it must be hard to understand what a frac pilot's life is like FG as you sit in your cubicle but I get to hear the lies tha the 20-something year old owners rep lie to the owners and I get to hear them directly from the owners mouth. Lets be honest here, with the 1108 on property things have gotton tough because mgt wishes to punish us for wanting representation. We all know that in the end life will be better with the 1108 here so I will wait it out and support my union with my full support. What will you do? Sit there in your cubicle and make you 500th post on how bad the union is? If you wish for people to listen to your opinions as you clearly want to be a professional pilot go to one of the zero to hero schools and finance the 70K or so to get your ratings then spend the next 10 years working crappy flying jobs to finally get the experience to get on with a fractional. Then and only then can you tell us how great we have life and how the unions are bad for us. Until then, you are just another cubicle dweller looking in from the outside with envy.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Okay...B19...why not tell us exactly what you do, then? You don't fly. "Haven't flown in years and years and years". "Lost my medical". "Sat in the jumpseat for 23 hours".

You've been called on pulling from your "union" experience in the "airlines" and NOT a bit of experience in the fractional world. Are you even in the frac world? Or do you just troll these boards like an evangelical speaking to the elderly on an early Sunday morn?

Now, by your own statement, you're not even management. So, again, I pose the question, if you can actually answer it: What on God's green Earth do you do?

There is a lot more to this industry than just flying airplanes and moving people. After the last layoff I became intensely involved in a fractional and forged many friendships which is how I began watching these boards. I found it somewhat amazing that the union conversations on these boards were normally one way, without anybody ever stating the other side. I enjoy giving the other viewpoint. I've walked where most union advocates haven't. Labor unrest has brought every legacy carrier into bankrupcty through the course of aviation. In some cases, even put them out of business. Many of the pilots at fracs haven't been around long enough to remember the magnitude of the unrest and the damage that occurs. No labor union, no labor unrest. I support a simple concept - If you want the structure of a union, do your research and go fly for one that already has one in place. Don't go and fly for a non-union carrier and think that bringing one onto the property isn't going to be painful, because it will be. Does that answer your question?

 

[B19 Flyer]

19,

Who's idea was it to institute Pay for Training and Training contracts? Managements or Unions?

I believe these constitute Unfair labor Practices.

Don't you think it sucks that when someone gets a better offer they can't leave because the company will charge them monies?

What even sucks more is to go through it all and get laid off when you are NOT part of the union that causes the unrest. As far as the union is concerned, it's only colateral damage.

 

[hammer2]

.....

 

[pilotpat]

Does that answer your question?

Respectfully, no. It doesn't answer my question. I'll spell it out a bit more clearly, in case the fumes of the flowery perfume of the girl across the cubicle have gotten to 'ya: What is your job title? You're not a pilot. You're not management. And I'll give you an example: I am PIC on a Falcon 20 and BE400. You are...

 

[gunfyter]

What even sucks more is to go through it all and get laid off when you are NOT part of the union that causes the unrest. As far as the union is concerned, it's only colateral damage.

If you got laid off ... your job must not have been necessary to the operation of the carrier. They found a way to become more efficient and operate without you. They cut the Fat.