the pro's and cons of unions in the fractional aviation and airline industry

[fischman]

My normal tag-line is, "Be careful what you ask for." And what you state here is exactly the example I wrap that around. If unions can affect and threaten large operations such as Northwest, United and American, smaller carriers can be damaged even more. I don't see where even NJ is carries the cash flow to withstand a large downturn if the $$ gets tight and the union drags their feet. These 60 aircraft fractionals don't have a chance to survive if faced with the same situation. Thanx for adding the reality of your personal experience!

You have heard of Berkshire Hathaway haven't you???

 

[B19 Flyer]

You have heard of Berkshire Hathaway haven't you???

Of course, but who on earth ever figured that legacy carriers like American, Delta and United (You have heard of them, right?) would have billion (that's with a B) dollar quarterly losses? While those losses were happening, the unions still dragged their feet and while they were bleeding several million a day, the unions remained motionless, compounding the problem. How long do you think Uncle Warren would hang in there if suddenly things went real bad and the losses were snowballing and the union was stonewalling? Don't think it can't happen, because those of us that came out of legacy carriers know it CAN happen. The fractional world as we know it today is still very new and there will be many challenges in the near future. I also understand how strong B-H is, but NJ is only a small piece of that puzzle.

 

[B19 Flyer]

B19 we don't like to deal with reality, this is a pilot board

That's how I got myself into this mess.

 

[FamilyGuy]

You have heard of Berkshire Hathaway haven't you???

Before you go throwing around the Berkshire Hathaway name you should familiarize yourself with Warren Buffett's investing philosophy.

He is well quoted in his beliefs that each business unit stand on its own merits and not be subsidized by the parent company.

Here's one such quote from the 2003 annual report, page 17:

"You may wonder why we borrow money while sitting on a mountain of cash. It’s because of
our “every tub on its own bottom” philosophy. We believe that any subsidiary lending money
should pay an appropriate rate for the funds needed to carry its receivables and should not be
subsidized by its parent. Otherwise, having a rich daddy can lead to sloppy decisions.
Meanwhile, the cash we accumulate at Berkshire is destined for business acquisitions or for
the purchase of securities that offer opportunities for significant profit."

http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/2003ar/2003ar.pdf
​

 

[Crash Pad]

and I am sure uncle bufett is soooo pro union. what is with you nj guys on this board? you live and die by the union. It worked for your cba, but for how long? do you think sitting aroung the ap and getting the overtime is benefiting the company for 800 a shot? Look deep down, you gonna fight for it on FI or when it hurts you gonn fight for the fam, you tell me.

 

[gunfyter]

and I am sure uncle bufett is soooo pro union. .

He supports Liberal Democrats ....

 

[pilotpat]

and I am sure uncle bufett is soooo pro union. what is with you nj guys on this board? you live and die by the union. It worked for your cba, but for how long? do you think sitting aroung the ap and getting the overtime is benefiting the company for 800 a shot? Look deep down, you gonna fight for it on FI or when it hurts you gonn fight for the fam, you tell me.

Maybe when you wake up with your hangover you might be able to make this post a little cleaner for us to understand what you're saying.

Oh, and Warren Buffet is a supporter of Barak Obama and his liberal initiatives.

 

[imacdog]

B19 we don't like to deal with reality, this is a pilot board

Yeah YIP your reality is so much better. Care to share the work rules and conditions at your company again?

 

[pilotyip]

To each his own

Sure Imadog, no junior manning, no forced open time pickup, $37K/yr first day of ground school, incentives for picking up open time, lots of good stuff, loose your medical temporarily, heart condition or something, stay on the payroll, help how with pub revisions, teach ground school etc. In fact we have a lot of stuff better than any union places I have worked. What union place hires 1000TT pilots starting first day a $37K? Tell you what I will send you a copy of our work rules. BTW I really have nothing against unions, at NJ they seem to be doing a good job of sharing company wealth with its employees. However there are limits at what unions can do at marginal operations

 

[gunfyter]

YIP...

Do I have to dig up the posts where you said our pay would be to high and bankrupt the company?

 

[hammer2]

Yip, if it were up to you we would be working 15hrs a day, and making a little bit more than the fellow mowing my yard.

 

[pilotyip]

Hi!

no gunguy, you may have read it that way, but my concern was seeing unemployment as I had seen in my past, I had no idea if NJ could afford it or not, it appears they can; good for you guys. BTW Who gets paid $125K/yr for cutting grass, or for a DA-20 pilot $31K in two months for cutting grass?

 

[gunfyter]

You lost me with this grass cutting.

Are you comparing piloting an aircraft with cutting grass?

 

[pilotyip]

gunguy you have to read hammer's #111 response to understand grass cuttting, also my expereince with local 747 gave little confidence in the Teamsters. But as I said above things worked out a lot of our piltos have gone there and seem happy with there move.

 

[Ultra Grump]

BTW Who gets paid $125K/yr for cutting grass, or for a DA-20 pilot $31K in two months for cutting grass?

My gardener. He gets $80/month from me. Seemed pretty cheap to me, as he's here once a week, every week, and does extra stuff I ask him to do every once in a while. He does 20 houses per day, 6 days a week. 120 people, paying him $80/month. $115,200 per year.

 

[FRLWD]

AA hasn't gone into bankrcuptcy. Primarily though, it's because the union leadership chased management up the stairs of the courthouse to stop the filing because they knew that the court would not take lightly to the union not making concessions.

No...........The union leadership refused to make concessions until management would allow them and their attorneys to look at the books so they could make an educated decision on how best to proceed with the concessionary contract. Management agreed and a concessionary contract was ratified.

And when the unions were taking huge pay cuts to save the company, your buddy Don Carty was trying to sneak in huge bonuses for upper management.

That's just the type of leadership that inspires an employee group to organize.

And probably the reason the flight attendants and mechanics refused to sign their contracts until Don resigned.
http://hr.blr.com/news.aspx?id=8417

 

[Stinkbug]

He does 20 houses per day, 6 days a week. 120 people, paying him $80/month. $115,200 per year.

Doesn't sound like he's gonna live long enough to enjoy all that money.

 

[pilotyip]

ultra, he doesn't cut grass in Belleville, it is a six month job there, and don't forget $115K is gross, take home after truck, mowers, gas, taxes, etc is much lower.

 

[imacdog]

Sure Imadog, no junior manning, no forced open time pickup, $37K/yr first day of ground school, incentives for picking up open time, lots of good stuff, loose your medical temporarily, heart condition or something, stay on the payroll, help how with pub revisions, teach ground school etc. In fact we have a lot of stuff better than any union places I have worked. What union place hires 1000TT pilots starting first day a $37K? Tell you what I will send you a copy of our work rules. BTW I really have nothing against unions, at NJ they seem to be doing a good job of sharing company wealth with its employees. However there are limits at what unions can do at marginal operations

YIP you like to state that since this is a pilot board that pilots aren't dealing with facts. Well here's a fact: you left out some of your work rules. Why did you do that? Trying to slant the real truth of working on a 25 minute leash, on call 24 hours a day? Do you think maybe the reason you have to lower your mins to 1000 hours and pay 37k first year is because no one wants to work under your work rules?

 

[Mr. Pebbles]

LOL, of course I'm looking on occasion, but it's not the same balancing a laptop on my knees while I'm in Europe in an airline terminal with a slow internet connection. Furthermore, posting on the boards is not the highlight of my day, it's just a distraction that takes me away from my real life when at the office. In your opinion I'm a wannabe and a hack because I don't agree with your stance on unions. I think that good healthy commentary is what educates both sides of the readership. I spend more time looking at the finer points of CPDLC than I do trying to figure out how to respond to your name calling. Also, why are you keeping tabs on me? It's not OK for me to look and not post? That's a little wierd, you really need to get out more. So, what HAVE you done lately with your union that has provided value to somebody other than yourself or the people your union represents? Let's get back on track Pat and discuss the pros and cons of unions, not how often I check the boards when I'm on the road traveling.

B19, even I am amazed how good of story- teller you are. But lies are easier to fabricate than to tell the truth. They fall apart easier too.