the pro's and cons of unions in the fractional aviation and airline industry

[pilotpat]

Okay...B19...why not tell us exactly what you do, then? You don't fly. "Haven't flown in years and years and years". "Lost my medical". "Sat in the jumpseat for 23 hours".

You've been called on pulling from your "union" experience in the "airlines" and NOT a bit of experience in the fractional world. Are you even in the frac world? Or do you just troll these boards like an evangelical speaking to the elderly on an early Sunday morn?

Now, by your own statement, you're not even management. So, again, I pose the question, if you can actually answer it: What on God's green Earth do you do?

 

[gunfyter]

19,

Who's idea was it to institute Pay for Training and Training contracts? Managements or Unions?

I believe these constitute Unfair labor Practices.

Don't you think it sucks that when someone gets a better offer they can't leave because the company will charge them monies?

 

[Galaxy]

1108 has been in existence for what? two years? Give 'em time and they'll be like all the other unions.

The lazy and corrupt will take over the leadership positions because the good people will be sick and tired of the politics and spending all the unions resources protecting the same 5% who are constantly in trouble.

Dont forget that this pilot group has had union leadership for over thirty years. What happened to the previous union?

I knew you would wake up from your little anti-union cubicle. But again your imputs are from a vantage of someone who does not fly for a living. So how can you have a real opinion on the subject? Other than the one your Boss told you to have. As far as the history of the 1108. I think we all know it by now, it was created because the pilots were getting hosed over by a weak union mgt. As soon as they became sick of it life changed for them as it is changing for FLOPS. Will it revert to what it was? I doubt it as once you ave been in that crappy situation, you do not want to go back. So lets forget about the history of what a previous union did or did not do in the loooong period it had time to do things. Instead, lets focus on what the current union has done for its members in the time it has had..

 

[hammer2]

How many retired airline guys are sitting in the right seat now where you are that can fly circles around the guys in the left seat based on career experience alone? For those retired guys, they should be able to take all that experience directly into the left seat of an airplane with a simular type rating. Instead, they wind up in the right seat and the experience is not used to the best advantage of the carrier. In fractionals, having this flight and leadership experience in the left seat is even more crucial due to the nature of diverse flying. Upgrades by strictly seniority and not merit does not best serve the owner. This experience translates directly to a safer operation. I'll support merit upgrades anytime over seniority upgrades based on safety alone. You can add this to my growing list of reasons why unions are a bad idea in today's aviation environment.

Your lack of knowledge and experience is barking like a big blue dog. You need to go to the general aviation board.

 

[Galaxy]

Well, first not everyone in the 1108 works for NJA.

So what happens that makes you go from being happy and satisfied to get the job to dissatisfied and pissed off at the company?

Did the company stop paying you the wages agreed to when you started?.

First the promises that they made and the way they explained the operation. They claimed everyone started at the bottom, not true. During training there were guys and gals in different planes getting paid different rates.. some as high as 20K more than others. Talking to these folks it was not because they had experience in the airframe or level of experience. None of it made sense other than one guy got hired on the first week of the month and others got hired on the third week. I have even seen guys get hired as street PIC's when they just came from a caravan. This showed me off the bat a lack of leadership.

Did the company stop funding the 401k?

Did the company stop paying the medical, dental, and vision bills that it agreed to cover when they hired you?.

Actually, yes they just got caught doing such and had to correct their mistake. Medical, I was told how expenses went up 35% but then had my premium raised 225%. Can you explain that math?

Lets face it, the company didnt change....your expectations did.

If the company no longer fits your raised expectations, then go find one that does.

No, my expectations did not change. I simply watched a company that I care for get pillaged from the inside. I know it must be hard to understand what a frac pilot's life is like FG as you sit in your cubicle but I get to hear the lies tha the 20-something year old owners rep lie to the owners and I get to hear them directly from the owners mouth. Lets be honest here, with the 1108 on property things have gotton tough because mgt wishes to punish us for wanting representation. We all know that in the end life will be better with the 1108 here so I will wait it out and support my union with my full support. What will you do? Sit there in your cubicle and make you 500th post on how bad the union is? If you wish for people to listen to your opinions as you clearly want to be a professional pilot go to one of the zero to hero schools and finance the 70K or so to get your ratings then spend the next 10 years working crappy flying jobs to finally get the experience to get on with a fractional. Then and only then can you tell us how great we have life and how the unions are bad for us. Until then, you are just another cubicle dweller looking in from the outside with envy.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Okay...B19...why not tell us exactly what you do, then? You don't fly. "Haven't flown in years and years and years". "Lost my medical". "Sat in the jumpseat for 23 hours".

You've been called on pulling from your "union" experience in the "airlines" and NOT a bit of experience in the fractional world. Are you even in the frac world? Or do you just troll these boards like an evangelical speaking to the elderly on an early Sunday morn?

Now, by your own statement, you're not even management. So, again, I pose the question, if you can actually answer it: What on God's green Earth do you do?

There is a lot more to this industry than just flying airplanes and moving people. After the last layoff I became intensely involved in a fractional and forged many friendships which is how I began watching these boards. I found it somewhat amazing that the union conversations on these boards were normally one way, without anybody ever stating the other side. I enjoy giving the other viewpoint. I've walked where most union advocates haven't. Labor unrest has brought every legacy carrier into bankrupcty through the course of aviation. In some cases, even put them out of business. Many of the pilots at fracs haven't been around long enough to remember the magnitude of the unrest and the damage that occurs. No labor union, no labor unrest. I support a simple concept - If you want the structure of a union, do your research and go fly for one that already has one in place. Don't go and fly for a non-union carrier and think that bringing one onto the property isn't going to be painful, because it will be. Does that answer your question?

 

[B19 Flyer]

19,

Who's idea was it to institute Pay for Training and Training contracts? Managements or Unions?

I believe these constitute Unfair labor Practices.

Don't you think it sucks that when someone gets a better offer they can't leave because the company will charge them monies?

What even sucks more is to go through it all and get laid off when you are NOT part of the union that causes the unrest. As far as the union is concerned, it's only colateral damage.

 

[hammer2]

.....

 

[pilotpat]

Does that answer your question?

Respectfully, no. It doesn't answer my question. I'll spell it out a bit more clearly, in case the fumes of the flowery perfume of the girl across the cubicle have gotten to 'ya: What is your job title? You're not a pilot. You're not management. And I'll give you an example: I am PIC on a Falcon 20 and BE400. You are...

 

[gunfyter]

What even sucks more is to go through it all and get laid off when you are NOT part of the union that causes the unrest. As far as the union is concerned, it's only colateral damage.

If you got laid off ... your job must not have been necessary to the operation of the carrier. They found a way to become more efficient and operate without you. They cut the Fat.

 

[fischman]

Labor unrest has brought every legacy carrier into bankrupcty through the course of aviation. In some cases, even put them out of business.

Wrong. The PIC is ultimatly responsible for the safe operation of a ship, just like upper management is responsible for the operations of their business. If a company went down, it is management's fault. Not the union's.

To my knowledge not every airline has gone bankrupt? American for example.

 

[fischman]

No labor union, no labor unrest.

Really?

There was no labor union at FLOPS and they were pretty pissed off. They have one of the strongest unions in the United States now. Stay strong and patient FLOPS!!! Your union brothers and sisters at NetJets support you!

Really?

What about GoJet?

Really, do you think before you post this garble? Do you actually believe it?

No labor union, no labor unrest.

What do you think causes the need for unions? Could it be labor unrest???

 

[FLYLOW22]

1108 has been in existence for what? two years? Give 'em time and they'll be like all the other unions.

The lazy and corrupt will take over the leadership positions because the good people will be sick and tired of the politics and spending all the unions resources protecting the same 5% who are constantly in trouble.

Dont forget that this pilot group has had union leadership for over thirty years. What happened to the previous union?

The Mighty Carnack has spoken. Gimme a break.

The previous Union is still here. A Union is made of of the membership.

This company deserved a Union for it's treatment of the employees. That is the only fact that matters at this point.

Don't worry Family Ghey... we'll take care of our house. Try and keep the violations down... my laser jet needs a new cartridge for all the grievances filed lately.

Looks bad in the eyes of the mediator next cycle.

 

[FLYLOW22]

The NJA guys have had a union for over thirty years. How did that help them in the negotiations that lasted for 4 years? Why did they change their union?

Certainly with your superior IQ you can figure it out. uke:Family Ghey

 

[FLYLOW22]

Every union goes through a cycle where they lose sight of their purpose, develop visions of grandeur, and turn corrupt, thinking only of what is best for the leadership and not their membership.

Wow... that sounds like Corporate America.

 

[FLYLOW22]

So what happens that makes you go from being happy and satisfied to get the job to dissatisfied and pissed off at the company?

Did the company stop paying you the wages agreed to when you started?

Did the company stop funding the 401k?

Did the company stop paying the medical, dental, and vision bills that it agreed to cover when they hired you?

Lets face it, the company didnt change....your expectations did.

If the company no longer fits your raised expectations, then go find one that does.

No. It couldn't stop any of those CBA protected provisions without grievances being filed and provisions restored.

Did the company deny employees rights to use sick or vacation time here? YES We prevailed in the grievance process.

Did the company interpret the 401K match for bonuses differently that what was negotiated following the 2005 CBA? Yes. We filed a grievance over the issue and won.

Did the company try and shove a f'd up crew food program down our throats (no pun here) in the name of profits and cost savings? Yes. We filed hundreds of grievances and are in the process of fixing the issue.

Did the company fight as to whether a NJA/NJI Captain transfer had the right to fly as Captain at the finish of training as agreed to? Yes, so we filed a grievance and an arbitrator agreed.

Seeing a pattern here yet Ghey? It seems that the Union has effectively positioned itself as the Ying for the corporate Yang. Without the Union, the pilots of NJA would be left to the whims of Upper/Middle/Lower management.

You would be out of a job too me thinks.

I am secure in my belief that we have true representation. It takes time to build a winning team. I'm still waiting to see the company heavy hitters. Seems like a lot of yes men and duck n cover artists that just wanna get along.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Wrong. The PIC is ultimatly responsible for the safe operation of a ship, just like upper management is responsible for the operations of their business. If a company went down, it is management's fault. Not the union's.

To my knowledge not every airline has gone bankrupt? American for example.

Actually, it's more complex than that.

-A Union is merely reactionary to the stimulus that management provides.

-The best management in corporate america is NOT drawn to aviaiton... not enough money to be made. We get stuck with the minor leaguers, the tust fund babies that daddy didn't love enough and the ones who didn't apply themselves perhaps as hard as they could have in school... keggers take up alot of time.

With those 2 things in mind, weigh the effects of deregulation. Post 1978, the economics of the airlines began to deteriorate from the bottom up, like an inverse hour glass filled with sand.

There is nothing either side could do but preserve the good times for as long as possible and the end was coming. Both sides were in denial until the later part of the 90's, at some carriers later.

Southwest is not immune.

The costs structure is no longer regimented. Revenue will NEVER exceed what the market won't cap with competition. Unless the carrier has a route network not yet tapped by the competition (rare now) the revenue is weak at best and the carrier stays in the market for "market presence" or market share. Hell, they may even los money.

This hemohrraging of cash can only go on for so long and the shortcomings must be made up somewhere because corporate profits MUST continue, shouldn't they??!?!

"Where can plug the holes?"... they cry.

COST #1 FUEL. Worked for SWA... for a while. They had money to burn after steaming through a very robust period of growth due to low labor costs.

Which segways into the 2nd largest cost to a company LABOR.

COST #2 LABOR. Remember, what a 737 Captain makes over there is STILL low compared to 2000 industry wages. Hourly pay for a 737 guage sized hull was around $220-250 per hour. The market has changed now, not for the better, in terms of competetive wages of the industry 737 wage.

Fuel is a no-go anymore for cost savings. The arabs are shoving it up our red white and blue butts and big oil is none too troubled to pass ont he costs to us. GOTTA MAKE THOSE PROFITS!!!!

"Hmmm. Labor... YEAH... LABOR!!!! We'l get cost savings from labor..."

"How do we do that?"

"BANKRUPCY!!!!!" FLUSH ALL CONTRACTS IN THE NAME OF SURVIVAL!!!

(Sounds of a profession flushing in the name of money)

What's left? A skeleton of what was. A gutted profession full of "once was's" and "use to be's".

This post is not meant to be a slam at SWA... they are just currently the nicest looking turd in the punchbowl of airline aviation. The employees there are worth alot more for putting up with the job they do! Sure, they love it but that's besides the point.

Fischman, Essentially, the marketplace changed and management left emplyees out in the rain so they could continue to collect their paychecks and bonuses... at labor expense. But hey! Look at the bright side... flying is now a right, not a privilage. GO SKYBUS... Not.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Actually, it's more complex than that.

-A Union is merely reactionary to the stimulus that management provides.

-The best management in corporate america is NOT drawn to aviaiton... not enough money to be made. We get stuck with the minor leaguers, the tust fund babies that daddy didn't love enough and the ones who didn't apply themselves perhaps as hard as they could have in school... keggers take up alot of time.

With those 2 things in mind, weigh the effects of deregulation. Post 1978, the economics of the airlines began to deteriorate from the bottom up, like an inverse hour glass filled with sand.

There is nothing either side could do but preserve the good times for as long as possible and the end was coming. Both sides were in denial until the later part of the 90's, at some carriers later.

Southwest is not immune.

The costs structure is no longer regimented. Revenue will NEVER exceed what the market won't cap with competition. Unless the carrier has a route network not yet tapped by the competition (rare now) the revenue is weak at best and the carrier stays in the market for "market presence" or market share. Hell, they may even los money.

This hemohrraging of cash can only go on for so long and the shortcomings must be made up somewhere because corporate profits MUST continue, shouldn't they??!?!

"Where can plug the holes?"... they cry.

COST #1 FUEL. Worked for SWA... for a while. They had money to burn after steaming through a very robust period of growth due to low labor costs.

Which segways into the 2nd largest cost to a company LABOR.

COST #2 LABOR. Remember, what a 737 Captain makes over there is STILL low compared to 2000 industry wages. Hourly pay for a 737 guage sized hull was around $220-250 per hour. The market has changed now, not for the better, in terms of competetive wages of the industry 737 wage.

Fuel is a no-go anymore for cost savings. The arabs are shoving it up our red white and blue butts and big oil is none too troubled to pass ont he costs to us. GOTTA MAKE THOSE PROFITS!!!!

"Hmmm. Labor... YEAH... LABOR!!!! We'l get cost savings from labor..."

"How do we do that?"

"BANKRUPCY!!!!!" FLUSH ALL CONTRACTS IN THE NAME OF SURVIVAL!!!

(Sounds of a profession flushing in the name of money)

What's left? A skeleton of what was. A gutted profession full of "once was's" and "use to be's".

This post is not meant to be a slam at SWA... they are just currently the nicest looking turd in the punchbowl of airline aviation. The employees there are worth alot more for putting up with the job they do! Sure, they love it but that's besides the point.

Fischman, Essentially, the marketplace changed and management left emplyees out in the rain so they could continue to collect their paychecks and bonuses... at labor expense. But hey! Look at the bright side... flying is now a right, not a privilage. GO SKYBUS... Not.

Everthing I read here says the same one-sided thing. I want my money and work rules now, and if the company folds, support workers get laid off and the traveling public can't get to where they want to go, that's too bad. Same selfish post that I have seen all along. Not a single word in this post that adds value or helps the company.

 

[doh]

How many retired airline guys are sitting in the right seat now where you are that can fly circles around the guys in the left seat based on career experience alone? For those retired guys, they should be able to take all that experience directly into the left seat of an airplane with a simular type rating. Instead, they wind up in the right seat and the experience is not used to the best advantage of the carrier. In fractionals, having this flight and leadership experience in the left seat is even more crucial due to the nature of diverse flying. Upgrades by strictly seniority and not merit does not best serve the owner. This experience translates directly to a safer operation. I'll support merit upgrades anytime over seniority upgrades based on safety alone. You can add this to my growing list of reasons why unions are a bad idea in today's aviation environment.

I'll bite. Who gets to determine "merit"? How long will it take for the "absolute power" to be absolutely corrupted? Politics will always trump ability and suddenly suck ups will be deemed more worthy of upgrade than the skilled. Pilots who will "fudge the numbers just this once" will jump to the head of the upgrade line and those that follow the far's will be left out in the cold. Let me think about your proposal... NO! Seniority gives you your chance to upgrade in a fair manner. Your "merit" (ability to fly) then gets you into the left seat. Whether you are union or non union, seniority rules because it is the only fair way! And since I am from 121 land, let me add that 121 pilots have a boat load to relearn about things like airspace. 121 you follow the controllers instructions. Fracland you better know where you are (below class B? what's the speed restriction again?) and what the rules are. It matters where you got your experience.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Wrong. The PIC is ultimatly responsible for the safe operation of a ship, just like upper management is responsible for the operations of their business. If a company went down, it is management's fault. Not the union's.

To my knowledge not every airline has gone bankrupt? American for example.

The PIC is responsible, that's true. But as a reminder, and just for the record, unless the owner buys the airplane, you don't have one to fly. If it's not signed off as airworthy by a mechanic, it's not going anyplace. If the fueler doesn't fuel it, you don't go anyplace and I could write a book about how if any link in chain of events is broken by a myriad of people in the airline, the airplane doesn't move. The pilot is only the end user, but it is the pilot's union that usually is the most disruptive. and you're right. AA hasn't gone into bankrcuptcy. Primarily though, it's because the union leadership chased management up the stairs of the courthouse to stop the filing because they knew that the court would not take lightly to the union not making concessions.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2905035.stm