the pro's and cons of unions in the fractional aviation and airline industry

[fischman]

Hey Googester. Why the name change? (Iam3rd)

 

[Diesel]

Damn that was his other name. I couldn't remember it and its been driving me nuts.

Hmmm maybe someone googled teachers strike?

 

[B19 Flyer]

Oh...I've been laid off from a flying job before. Non-union company, too. It just hasn't tainted me in a bad way. If you had peace, then you wouldn't be trolling the boards union bashing.

How many of your friend's careers were rearranged at the same time? Any suicides? Any divorces? I have peace, but there are those that haven't been around long enough to understand the historical and very negative effect of unions on the entire airline industry. There are a couple of fracs that haven't been infiltrated yet and I think that it's healthy to talk about it, don't you?

 

[B19 Flyer]

Like I said before Diesel, history speakes for itself regardless of what you and the unions intensions are now. Fact is the non-union carriers and carriers with in-house unions made out so much better than the carriers with ALPA and Teamsters after 9/11. Its a proven fact if you look at the numbers and the state of each company after 9/11. And as always history shows us that people don't seem to learn from history and that history will repeat itself. They always think that its going to be different or that they are the exception.

I will take my chances without the union.....but I don't expect you to understand......

The union supporters don't seem to learn. One of the amazing things that seems to be consistant amongst people that post are: If you are anti-union, the posts tend to support the entire health of the company and look to ensure that the company is going to be around for your entire career. If you support the unions, then the posts tend to revolve around what the union has done for the individual or the represented group, how much pay and benefits they have but not a single word about how the union creates long term health and value for the company. Occasionally, a statement will be made about supporting a safety program. ASAP, FOQA and the other safety related programs certainly don't need union support to be successful. The union attitude is to take it now, no matter how much it hurts the company and support workers, Then, they make it sound like the company couldn't exist without them. The reality is, that historically unions have destroyed and disrupted more careers than they have saved them. If unions lived up to their billing as watching out for everybody, NONE of the carriers would have gone into bankruptcy over the last 5 years. They would have acted quickly to ensure the financial health of the company instead of dragging out contract concessions forcing carriers into bankruptcy to protect themselves from the collective bargaining agreement.

I don't feel like I'm taking my chances at all. I KNOW being in a non-union airline is the way to go. You are right, they DON'T understand. What is fine and wonderful now can turn around overnight. I've lived it before, and don't care to live it again. Aviation is full of risk. Labor unrest is one risk that I don't have do worry about anymore.

 

[Galaxy]

The union supporters don't seem to learn. One of the amazing things that seems to be consistant amongst people that post are: If you are anti-union, the posts tend to support the entire health of the company and look to ensure that the company is going to be around for your entire career. If you support the unions, then the posts tend to revolve around what the union has done for the individual or the represented group, how much pay and benefits they have but not a single word about how the union creates long term health and value for the company. Occasionally, a statement will be made about supporting a safety program. ASAP, FOQA and the other safety related programs certainly don't need union support to be successful. The union attitude is to take it now, no matter how much it hurts the company and support workers, Then, they make it sound like the company couldn't exist without them. The reality is, that historically unions have destroyed and disrupted more careers than they have saved them. If unions lived up to their billing as watching out for everybody, NONE of the carriers would have gone into bankruptcy over the last 5 years. They would have acted quickly to ensure the financial health of the company instead of dragging out contract concessions forcing carriers into bankruptcy to protect themselves from the collective bargaining agreement.

I don't feel like I'm taking my chances at all. I KNOW being in a non-union airline is the way to go. You are right, they DON'T understand. What is fine and wonderful now can turn around overnight. I've lived it before, and don't care to live it again. Aviation is full of risk. Labor unrest is one risk that I don't have do worry about anymore.

Once again... This post is just full of your history with an airline.and that other union. .not a fractional and not the IBT 1108. You said you would take your chances without a union... The way I see it is you don't fly for a living now much less a fractional. So either you have no ties to the fractional heartbeat other than this board or you are mgt. The latter would would be my guess as this is the only thing that would spark your interest in this forum. The other guy with multiple names at least works for Flex on the line--so he says..

You made this statement-
What is fine and wonderful now can turn around overnight. I've lived it before, and don't care to live it again.

Well, I work for a frac that had no union and things changed for the worse just like that-overnight. I only wish I had a contract then so the new regime would at least have to follow it and not ruin the company but changing payscales, increasing benefit cost as well as removing benefits. Changing domiciles for no real financial reason--just because-and even though it was an admitted mistake they never reversed it.. Then they cry poor but fly the salesmen and thier wives to go shopping then hire about 20+ new VP's so all his defunct airline rejects can have a job and a golden parachute before they move on to their next victim. All that and no Union....Wow life was great without a union--you must be nuts or mgt....

Fact is..while Flex or CS may be fronting some $$$ to keep you quiet they are getting a great deal for the investment with guys like you..A set of work rules alone is worth the dues 1108 members pay. And like B19 said things can change on a dime--without a contract..if you have a contract there has to be negotiations before changes like that. It would take over a year to even get a union on the property and many more years to hash out a contract. During that time you get to suffer.. just like the NJA guys did for 4 years and Flops is doing now..
So B19 answer my previous question....
What has the 1108 done against the members?

 

[Iam3rd]

1108 is my union. They are our in-house union.

I think I understand union vs non-union shops more than you can ever understand.

If you and fischman are a representation of the 1108 then I will lump y'all into the union group. The way y'all hare so hostile, militant, make personal attacks and just plane rude to non-union guys on here....y'all are the perfect example of the union group. The way that y'all have treated us on here is the way that the typical unions act towards mgmt.....but thats ok because all it does allow the non-union guys to be reminded of the unions true colors. Just remember that if y'all are trying to get the non-union guys to be in favor of a union.....its not going to happen the way y'all treat us on here.

I would think that if y'all were really trying to get the non-union guys to some day be in favor of a union, y'all would be putting your best foot forward and trying to befriend these guys. And when they express an opinion as to why they don't want to be union right now your attitude should be .....hey, thats ok, we are happy that you are happy where you are. I hope it stays that way, but if things change, we are here to help you through it and here to help you get what you deserve......Instead, anytime someone expresses an opinion as to why they feel they don't need a union, y'all degrade them, make personal attacks and basicaly rip them a new.......

 

[Galaxy]

I think you are kinda taking this board a bit too personally. Personally, I am glad you like your non-union frac. What you must ask yourself is do 50% plus 1 think the same as you? While there will be "Spirited" individuals on this board remember it is all in good fun and for informational purposes only.

On another note..you have been at flex for 3 months right? Many others here that you describe have been at the fracs for 6 years or better and have personally seen the crazy growth and many different management styles (Good and Bad). While I respect your opinion, you have yet to experience true downfalls of this dynamic side of aviation. We all have company fever when we are first hired and with time the sweet drink they serve gets sour as life goes on with them. I would like to hear your opinions again in about 5 years with your frac.

 

[Iam3rd]

I think you are kinda taking this board a bit too personally. Personally, I am glad you like your non-union frac. What you must ask yourself is do 50% plus 1 think the same as you? While there will be "Spirited" individuals on this board remember it is all in good fun and for informational purposes only.

You may be making light of it and saying that its all in good fun, but there are others on here that that do take in personal....quite a few of them and like I mentined earlier.....their true colors show.

As it looks right now its many more than 50% + 1.

On another note..you have been at flex for 3 months right? Many others here that you describe have been at the fracs for 6 years or better and have personally seen the crazy growth and many different management styles (Good and Bad). While I respect your opinion, you have yet to experience true downfalls of this dynamic side of aviation. We all have company fever when we are first hired and with time the sweet drink they serve gets sour as life goes on with them. I would like to hear your opinions again in about 5 years with your frac.

You write as though this company is my first experience with aviation. My last job that I was with for a number of years had some good times and bad times....much worse than thay y'all have ever experienced at a frac. But I knew that if I didn't like it I would leave and go somewhere else....simple as that......and thats what I did.

 

[Galaxy]

As it looks right now its many more than 50% + 1..

Be careful...Only the brave will stand up for what they believe in. Some will agree with what you think the majority is and it will surprise you on an election day. For others...it just takes a little more time being abused and intimidated.

You write as though this company is my first experience with aviation. My last job that I was with for a number of years had some good times and bad times....much worse than thay y'all have ever experienced at a frac. But I knew that if I didn't like it I would leave and go somewhere else....simple as that......and thats what I did.

I did not say it was your first job in aviation....No offence here-but I did pretty much say it was your inexperience with your company is what discredits your stance on a fractional union. The funny thing is... I myself was exactly like you when I started..full of spunk, waving the company flag and thumbing my nose up to anything that could possibly harm my new found love. You are in the honeymoon phase of your new job in time-it will wear off and it too will become a job. After years of the job and the promises that were given are nothing more than a memory then I can accept your opinion on anti union. But for now you are no more than the Police Cadet Rookie with all the answers.. It will win you great respect your peers and open great opportunitys like being "Point Man". You have no idea what any of us have experienced at a frac so -please don't comment on such things..If you would like to share the nightmare story you survived I am all ears..
Not trying to stir up things but what was with the name change?

 

[FLYLOW22]

They actually work with mgmt. and do whats best for the company as a whole....at least most of them do anyway.....and I think you know who they are....Southwest-in house union, Airtran-in house union, Jetblue-non-union, etc.

IamTurd,

Every company goes through a cycle where eventually a Union shows up on property.

I won't speak for any other employee groups except or ours. A Union, a STRONG UNION has been absolutely awesome for us here at NetJets. Regardless of you opinon, that is a fact.

It's ok to be wrong.

 

[FamilyGuy]

I noticed how the anti union folks here can only speak of things that some other union did to them. Why not compare ALPA to IBT Airline Division to the IBT 1108. The ONLY Union that supports any fractional is the IBT 1108. Please name one thing that they have done against their members. The 1108 can be compared to what government was in the very begining. Of the people for the people. They are all full time line pilots donating their time serving their brothers and sisters for a better future The mgt at ALPA and unfortunatly the Airline Div IBT has become what politicians are today.

So again I ask..since this is the frac forum....forget about what ALPA, Delta, NWA, US Air has done to you.....that is just stereotyping.....what has the 1108 done against the members?
The answer is nothing... They have made working for the company a better, safer, and more profitable environment.
1108 is my Union and they speak for me

1108 has been in existence for what? two years? Give 'em time and they'll be like all the other unions.

The lazy and corrupt will take over the leadership positions because the good people will be sick and tired of the politics and spending all the unions resources protecting the same 5% who are constantly in trouble.

Dont forget that this pilot group has had union leadership for over thirty years. What happened to the previous union?

 

[FamilyGuy]

Fact is..while Flex or CS may be fronting some $$$ to keep you quiet they are getting a great deal for the investment with guys like you..A set of work rules alone is worth the dues 1108 members pay. And like B19 said things can change on a dime--without a contract..if you have a contract there has to be negotiations before changes like that. It would take over a year to even get a union on the property and many more years to hash out a contract. During that time you get to suffer.. just like the NJA guys did for 4 years and Flops is doing now..

The NJA guys have had a union for over thirty years. How did that help them in the negotiations that lasted for 4 years? Why did they change their union?

 

[FamilyGuy]

Every company goes through a cycle where eventually a Union shows up on property.

Every union goes through a cycle where they lose sight of their purpose, develop visions of grandeur, and turn corrupt, thinking only of what is best for the leadership and not their membership.

 

[FamilyGuy]

We all have company fever when we are first hired and with time the sweet drink they serve gets sour as life goes on with them.

So what happens that makes you go from being happy and satisfied to get the job to dissatisfied and pissed off at the company?

Did the company stop paying you the wages agreed to when you started?

Did the company stop funding the 401k?

Did the company stop paying the medical, dental, and vision bills that it agreed to cover when they hired you?

Lets face it, the company didnt change....your expectations did.

If the company no longer fits your raised expectations, then go find one that does.

 

[fischman]

The NJA guys have had a union for over thirty years. How did that help them in the negotiations that lasted for 4 years? Why did they change their union?

You have got to be kidding me.

How did it help to vote in 1108? Do you really need an answer to that question?

You are blind to the world around you.

 

[fischman]

So what happens that makes you go from being happy and satisfied to get the job to dissatisfied and pissed off at the company?

Did the company stop paying you the wages agreed to when you started?

Did the company stop funding the 401k?

Did the company stop paying the medical, dental, and vision bills that it agreed to cover when they hired you?

Lets face it, the company didnt change....your expectations did.

If the company no longer fits your raised expectations, then go find one that does.

Personally I am currently not dissatisfied with the company.

However, without 1108 things could and WOULD go sour rapidly because of management like yourself. You have no respect for the pilots whatsoever and have demonstrated it repeatedly on these boards.

You might claim that you do, and that you have friends that are on our seniority list, but your words say otherwise.

 

[fischman]

If you and fischman are a representation of the 1108 then I will lump y'all into the union group. The way y'all hare so hostile, militant, make personal attacks and just plane rude to non-union guys on here....y'all are the perfect example of the union group. The way that y'all have treated us on here is the way that the typical unions act towards mgmt.....but thats ok because all it does allow the non-union guys to be reminded of the unions true colors. Just remember that if y'all are trying to get the non-union guys to be in favor of a union.....its not going to happen the way y'all treat us on here.

I would think that if y'all were really trying to get the non-union guys to some day be in favor of a union, y'all would be putting your best foot forward and trying to befriend these guys. And when they express an opinion as to why they don't want to be union right now your attitude should be .....hey, thats ok, we are happy that you are happy where you are. I hope it stays that way, but if things change, we are here to help you through it and here to help you get what you deserve......Instead, anytime someone expresses an opinion as to why they feel they don't need a union, y'all degrade them, make personal attacks and basicaly rip them a new.......

Here's my big beef with you.

You have NO experience working with unions. You constantly claim that you know SOOOO much about the evils of unions. You use NO facts to back up your case.

Very soon you will learn the wrong doings of management.

Will you be my friend?

 

[gunfyter]

The NJA guys have had a union for over thirty years. How did that help them in the negotiations that lasted for 4 years? Why did they change their union?

For all those years NJA pilots obeyed the FARs without pressure to do otherwise ( I do not believe this is very common elsewhere)... which is more important than pay and benefits.

Good maintenance and adherence to FARs were 2 of the main factors that attracted me to NJA.

In Negotiations WEAK UNION was ineffective most notably on compensation ... therefore it was necessary to switch to STRONG Union.

Had management made a more reasonable offer in 2004... Strong union would not exist.

Does this answer your question?

 

[pilotpat]

How many of your friend's careers were rearranged at the same time? Any suicides? Any divorces? I have peace, but there are those that haven't been around long enough to understand the historical and very negative effect of unions on the entire airline industry. There are a couple of fracs that haven't been infiltrated yet and I think that it's healthy to talk about it, don't you?

Almost 10 of my very good, close friends have been furloughed. No suicides. No divorces. Maybe if you're weak-willed, or have a crappy marriage, your little story may work. But not for the majority of guys out there. You very much have a negative outlook here. What? Did your wife leave you 'cuz you couldn't bring home the coin? Is that where all this hostility comes from? Be honest with yourself, and then climb down off your little perch in your cubicle.

As far as fracs being "infiltrated"...dude, you got serious issues using a military term here. Let it go and prove you have your peace. In other words: Drop it.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Almost 10 of my very good, close friends have been furloughed. No suicides. No divorces. Maybe if you're weak-willed, or have a crappy marriage, your little story may work. But not for the majority of guys out there. You very much have a negative outlook here. What? Did your wife leave you 'cuz you couldn't bring home the coin? Is that where all this hostility comes from? Be honest with yourself, and then climb down off your little perch in your cubicle.

As far as fracs being "infiltrated"...dude, you got serious issues using a military term here. Let it go and prove you have your peace. In other words: Drop it.

I am honest with myself. I climbed out of my cubicle for 23 flight hours last week, something I enjoy doing on a regular basis. I do know what it's like on the line. I understand the fatigue of overseas flights and also what it's like to flight plan my own flight and do a 20 minute turn throwing bags with a B1900. But what is even more important, and why I bother with these conversations, is that the only time my career has been threatened is when a union on the property decides that what they have isn't good enough. The implication that my friends were weak is actually offensive. As a pilot, I'm certain you haven't been on the recieving end of a union action. You haven't been close enough to have understand the six hour union caucus to clarify a nine word sentence during negations or any of the other tricks that the union negotiators use to drag things out. You seem to think I'm bitter. I'm not, but there is a certain point in life where you can look back at your career and hope that those younger guys can learn from some of the crap I've been through. Also, I don't wear the management tag anymore so I can speak freely. I like that. I wouldn't ever ask you to "Drop it". I would recommend that you fly a desk for a couple of years though and experience your union from the other side. You should take some time and see how difficult it is to manage any part of an air carrier with a large pilot group that has a union (especially a radical one). My negative outlook is your perception because I don't agree with your view of unions. I actually have a very positive outlook, I've been in non-union carriers for nearly three years now. How couldn't life be good?