the pro's and cons of unions in the fractional aviation and airline industry

[pilotpat]

Funny, B19...its been 2 days since I asked you pointedly your title. You refuse to answer because you're nothing but a troll. You were on here yesterday, so why no answer? Don't worry ~ I think we all know anyway. Good riddance.

 

[FamilyGuy]

No. It couldn't stop any of those CBA protected provisions without grievances being filed and provisions restored.

Did the company deny employees rights to use sick or vacation time here? YES We prevailed in the grievance process.

Did the company interpret the 401K match for bonuses differently that what was negotiated following the 2005 CBA? Yes. We filed a grievance over the issue and won.

Did the company try and shove a f'd up crew food program down our throats (no pun here) in the name of profits and cost savings? Yes. We filed hundreds of grievances and are in the process of fixing the issue.

Did the company fight as to whether a NJA/NJI Captain transfer had the right to fly as Captain at the finish of training as agreed to? Yes, so we filed a grievance and an arbitrator agreed.

Seeing a pattern here yet Ghey? It seems that the Union has effectively positioned itself as the Ying for the corporate Yang. Without the Union, the pilots of NJA would be left to the whims of Upper/Middle/Lower management.

You would be out of a job too me thinks.

I am secure in my belief that we have true representation. It takes time to build a winning team. I'm still waiting to see the company heavy hitters. Seems like a lot of yes men and duck n cover artists that just wanna get along.

the way you portray it here it sounds like the union wins all the grievances.

I've been around enough unions to know it doesnt work that way.

So what are the actual stats? How many grievances do you win and lose?

What are the losses?

 

[FamilyGuy]

-The best management in corporate america is NOT drawn to aviaiton... not enough money to be made. We get stuck with the minor leaguers, the tust fund babies that daddy didn't love enough and the ones who didn't apply themselves perhaps as hard as they could have in school... keggers take up alot of time.

During the negotiations in 2005 the union supporters on this board were bitching about Boisture's salary and the other executives pay.

Now you're saying that aviation can't attract good management because the pay is too low.

Make up your mind.

Post 1978, the economics of the airlines began to deteriorate from the bottom up, like an inverse hour glass filled with sand.

There is nothing either side could do but preserve the good times for as long as possible and the end was coming. Both sides were in denial until the later part of the 90's, at some carriers later.

Southwest is not immune.

The costs structure is no longer regimented. Revenue will NEVER exceed what the market won't cap with competition. Unless the carrier has a route network not yet tapped by the competition (rare now) the revenue is weak at best and the carrier stays in the market for "market presence" or market share. Hell, they may even los money.

This hemohrraging of cash can only go on for so long and the shortcomings must be made up somewhere because corporate profits MUST continue, shouldn't they??!?!

"Where can plug the holes?"... they cry.

COST #1 FUEL. Worked for SWA... for a while. They had money to burn after steaming through a very robust period of growth due to low labor costs.

Which segways into the 2nd largest cost to a company LABOR.

COST #2 LABOR. Remember, what a 737 Captain makes over there is STILL low compared to 2000 industry wages. Hourly pay for a 737 guage sized hull was around $220-250 per hour. The market has changed now, not for the better, in terms of competetive wages of the industry 737 wage.

Fuel is a no-go anymore for cost savings. The arabs are shoving it up our red white and blue butts and big oil is none too troubled to pass ont he costs to us. GOTTA MAKE THOSE PROFITS!!!!

"Hmmm. Labor... YEAH... LABOR!!!! We'l get cost savings from labor..."

"How do we do that?"

"BANKRUPCY!!!!!" FLUSH ALL CONTRACTS IN THE NAME OF SURVIVAL!!!

(Sounds of a profession flushing in the name of money)

What's left? A skeleton of what was. A gutted profession full of "once was's" and "use to be's".

This post is not meant to be a slam at SWA... they are just currently the nicest looking turd in the punchbowl of airline aviation. The employees there are worth alot more for putting up with the job they do! Sure, they love it but that's besides the point.

Fischman, Essentially, the marketplace changed and management left emplyees out in the rain so they could continue to collect their paychecks and bonuses... at labor expense. But hey! Look at the bright side... flying is now a right, not a privilage. GO SKYBUS... Not.

Again, make up your mind.

At the beginning of your post you clearly state that both management AND LABOR stuck their heads in the sand and ignored the deteriorating economics for the airlines so that they could enjoy that fat contract from the summer of 2000 (UAL).

Then at the end you lay all the blame on management?!?! WTF?

I realize blaming management is the easy way out for the union supporters, and they certainly bear part of the blame, but they are not alone. Both sides share in the demise of the legacy carriers.

Do not make the mistake of assuming this is an endorsement of some airline managements decisions to insert bankruptcy proof pensions, or to award themselves hefty bonuses when many of the front line employees are still working under reduced wages.

While I dont begrudge management their bonuses for good performance during profitable times, I personally dont think anyone should get bonuses when the company is losing money or employees are working under reduced wages. That's just poor leadership.

 

[FLYLOW22]

the way you portray it here it sounds like the union wins all the grievances.

I've been around enough unions to know it doesnt work that way.

So what are the actual stats? How many grievances do you win and lose?

What are the losses?

You have access to the stats. Look them up.

How many do I win? Most. The others I send to SBA and they either settle or deadlock. The majority of deadlocked grievances have been settled now and I look forward to the rest settling after they go through the process.

I believe I have a nearly perfect record because I do good research and I grieve solid violations.

I do wish there were no violations but whatever...

 

[FLYLOW22]

During the negotiations in 2005 the union supporters on this board were bitching about Boisture's salary and the other executives pay.

Now you're saying that aviation can't attract good management because the pay is too low.

Make up your mind.

Boisture was an overpaid hack who's techniques were crude. He WAS overpaid. He was NOT qualified. He was NOT the best.

The best management does not work for in the transportation industry. They follow the money. Oil, defense, communications, etc.

As far as the commentary given on the airlines... for someone with an IQ as vast as your, you are having difficulty following?? Say it ain't so!!

The airlines are quite different than our business model. Their costs are much more mature. The economic realities and competetive picture are much different. The airline industry is a deflating balloon.

The comments made are about the best of the lot: SWA. They are not immune to the realities of "the cycle" of a business. They are not bullet proof to losses and their business model is being tweaked ever tighter to avoid them. Growth is slowing, hedges are dissapearing, labor costs are rising and their revenue oppportunities are harder to find.

That was the point.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Funny, B19...its been 2 days since I asked you pointedly your title. You refuse to answer because you're nothing but a troll. You were on here yesterday, so why no answer? Don't worry ~ I think we all know anyway. Good riddance.

Yeah, I'm back. I need to work for a living Pat, when I'm out of the office I have limited time to be on the computer, especially when I'm overseas as I was this week. The time zones mess me up. I'm not going to give you a job title, but I will tell you that I've done everything in aviation from pump gas to work as a director. I've worked in customer service, OCC, safety, quality assurance and flight operations, most of it in management as I got older. What I do now though isn't as relevent as what I used to do that put me in the middle of all the union crap. As I've said before, that stuff is behind me now, but I still feel that there needs to be a voice that has experienced this stuff to educate those that have only experienced the good side of unions that that are bad sides as well. The problem is, that those airlines that run with what pilots consider bad management will usually last longer and hold more job security than carriers with good management that are restricted by a CBA. Do me a favor Pat? From now on in, drive only within the speed limit. Act as if you had a cop sitting beside you with a ticket book open with your name on it every where you go. No going over the speed limit by 5 mph anywhere. No 70 in a 55, no 35 in a 20 mph zone. Much of what I've written about is the lack of responsiveness that unions get when the financial scale tips in the wrong direction. But that simple example will let you know what it is like to have a union on the property. Everything that you do is micromanaged to the point of being unable to function. Scope clauses are a great example of that. So, to get back to the original statement Pat, what have you done in the industry to be able to speak from experience as to how your union has improved and added value to any individual outside of yourself and the specific represented group?

 

[B19 Flyer]

I am ex-union ALPA and Teamsters, both companies Transamerica and Zantop out of business. I have seen what unions can do and what they can not do. Unions are why we have many of he working rules at union and non-union airlines. At profitable companies, NJ and UPS, FedEx unions can ensure that management shares with its employees. At marginal companies unions can not make a silk purse out of a pig’s ear. Whenever I see the, militant union talk on this board I go back to my union companies that went out of business and inject a note caution.

My normal tag-line is, "Be careful what you ask for." And what you state here is exactly the example I wrap that around. If unions can affect and threaten large operations such as Northwest, United and American, smaller carriers can be damaged even more. I don't see where even NJ is carries the cash flow to withstand a large downturn if the $$ gets tight and the union drags their feet. These 60 aircraft fractionals don't have a chance to survive if faced with the same situation. Thanx for adding the reality of your personal experience!

 

[pilotpat]

B19...I'm sorry, but I'm not even reading the rest of your post after reading the initial couple sentences. Why? Well, because you are a liar. I checked your stats the past few days and you've been in here looking every day, just not posting. You pathetic liar.

You're nothing but a troll. Thank God, now you're on ignore since you can't be truthful and I don't wish to read your trite comments.

I hope everyone on the board sees that you're nothing but a hack and wannabe. See 'ya loser.

 

[B19 Flyer]

B19...I'm sorry, but I'm not even reading the rest of your post after reading the initial couple sentences. Why? Well, because you are a liar. I checked your stats the past few days and you've been in here looking every day, just not posting. You pathetic liar.

You're nothing but a troll. Thank God, now you're on ignore since you can't be truthful and I don't wish to read your trite comments.

I hope everyone on the board sees that you're nothing but a hack and wannabe. See 'ya loser.

LOL, of course I'm looking on occasion, but it's not the same balancing a laptop on my knees while I'm in Europe in an airline terminal with a slow internet connection. Furthermore, posting on the boards is not the highlight of my day, it's just a distraction that takes me away from my real life when at the office. In your opinion I'm a wannabe and a hack because I don't agree with your stance on unions. I think that good healthy commentary is what educates both sides of the readership. I spend more time looking at the finer points of CPDLC than I do trying to figure out how to respond to your name calling. Also, why are you keeping tabs on me? It's not OK for me to look and not post? That's a little wierd, you really need to get out more. So, what HAVE you done lately with your union that has provided value to somebody other than yourself or the people your union represents? Let's get back on track Pat and discuss the pros and cons of unions, not how often I check the boards when I'm on the road traveling.

 

[pilotyip]

B19 we don't like to deal with reality, this is a pilot board